Catholic Schools and Non-Immunizing Families

[Rob_s_Wife]

kamz:

…pretending that something serious won’t happen is just foolish too, you have to be willing to face the consequences in either case
…be totally prepared to blame only yourself, as adults making adult decisions, we have to always be prepared to stand behind our decisions even if our decisions turn out to be wrong and something bad does happen.

See now, I just don’t see it that way in either situation at all.

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Maybe it’s parenting so many has taught me I just can’t control the universe or something.

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C* happens to put it simply. Especially with kids.**

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Do you blame yourself if your child gets pnemonia? I doubt it. Do you pat yourself on the back when another kid gets it and yours is healthy as can be? I hope not! If your kid gets sick, then that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. If your kid doesn’t get sick it probably has a lot more to do with pure luck than anything in particuliar the parent did or didn’t do.

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Childhood diseases that are 99% harmless shouldn’t make a parent feel any different, even if they are unfortunate enough to be in the 1% catagory.

 

[MariaG]

Polio used to be one of the most dreaded diseases. Parents used to fear it terribly. Many, Many children got it.

I think what bothers parents who choose to immunize is that we research, but know that if everyone stopped immunizing today, if the disease came back, like polio, the way it used to be, the chances of our child getting the disease with serious complications are greater than the number of children who have serious complications from the shot.

So those of us who take that risk, knowing that there could be serious complications for that shot, risk the health of our child each and every time, can sometimes have problems with those who say there is no need for the polio shot. Yup, your kid will probably be fine because I risk mine.

I think that is why these threads can get so heated. The parents who take that risk knowing that the more who opt out, the greater the risk gets to not immunize for diseases like polio, sometimes get mad at those who choose not to, “because the risks of the shot outweigh the risks of the disease”.

Only because of the people who take the risks and get the shots.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

MariaG:

Polio used to be one of the most dreaded diseases. Parents used to fear it terribly. Many, Many children got it.

Yes indeed it was. My father got it along with “many, many” others - very few of which died or had lifelong problems as a result. However, polio was already on a severe decline before the vaccine became available. And the disease had appeared to run its course in Europe by the time the vaccine became available there. Polio’s decline had nothing to do with the vaccine. As a matter of fact, many drs at the time wouldn’t give the vaccine to their own children because it gave them a small dose of the actual polio disease.

 

[CatholicSam]

MariaG:

Polio used to be one of the most dreaded diseases. Parents used to fear it terribly. Many, Many children got it.

I think what bothers parents who choose to immunize is that we research, but know that if everyone stopped immunizing today, if the disease came back, like polio, the way it used to be, the chances of our child getting the disease with serious complications are greater than the number of children who have serious complications from the shot.

So those of us who take that risk, knowing that there could be serious complications for that shot, risk the health of our child each and every time, can sometimes have problems with those who say there is no need for the polio shot. Yup, your kid will probably be fine because I risk mine.

I think that is why these threads can get so heated. The parents who take that risk knowing that the more who opt out, the greater the risk gets to not immunize for diseases like polio, sometimes get mad at those who choose not to, “because the risks of the shot outweigh the risks of the disease”.

Only because of the people who take the risks and get the shots.

What “diseases like polio” did you have in mind? I certainly do not count mumps, chicken pox, or hepatitis B in the same category, and even rubella is not a very serious disease for most children (different story for the pregnant and unborn, of course). A previous poster also pointed out that some very “deadly” diseases in third world countries are easily treated and cured with basic medical care and hygene when these measures are available (such as in our country). I think you make a very good point about polio, but I am having a hard time trying to think of a disease as devastating as polio for which we have a vaccine. Meningitis scares me, but even that is nowhere nearly as devastating to a person as polio.

 

[CatholicSam]

Yes indeed it was. My father got it along with “many, many” others - very few of which died or had lifelong problems as a result. However, polio was already on a severe decline before the vaccine became available. And the disease had appeared to run its course in Europe by the time the vaccine became available there. Polio’s decline had nothing to do with the vaccine. As a matter of fact, many drs at the time wouldn’t give the vaccine to their own children because it gave them a small dose of the actual polio disease.

Luckily the active virus vaccine is off the market now, though, and there is no chance of contracting the disease from the polio vaccine anymore. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other side effects that we need to be aware of

 

[Detroit_Sue]

MariaG:

Polio used to be one of the most dreaded diseases. Parents used to fear it terribly. Many, Many children got it.

The incidence of Multiple Sclerosis, Myasthenia Gravis, and Lupus, along with other auto-immune disease have skyrocketed since the Salk vaccine.

The steady escalation in the number of vaccines administered has been followed by an identical rise in the incidence of auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis, subacute lupus erythematosus, psoriasis, multiple sclerosis, asthma) seen in children. While there is a genetic transmission of some of these diseases many are probably due to the injury from foreign protein particles, mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other toxic agents injected in vaccines.

Link to entire article

It’s wrong for either side to think the other does not love their children because of their vaccination choices. A well-informed parent is a child’s best ally.

 

[Princess_Abby]

marvin:

Where was this?

My brother was one of those kiddos. He received his MMR shots on time and still got measles. The rest of us vaccinated siblings did NOT however, despite being exposed to him. I remember our doctor reported his case to the state.

I have been pondering all of this a great deal as we await the birth of our baby daughter…

Spacecadet–which vax did you split up and on what schedule?

 

[MariaG]

Detroit Sue:

It’s wrong for either side to think the other does not love their children because of their vaccination choices.

I pray you do not think I said or somehow implied that.

 

[marvin]

ahh yes, let’s look at what I noticed on that link…

Ok, here’s what *I * noticed:

“In the minds of a lot of people, measles is a benign, harmless, childhood disease,” Dr. Myers said. “It is a very serious problem if you are one of the unlucky few who suffers from complications. For some people, it can be life threatening or life ending.”

Complications from measles can lead to pneumonia, encephalitis, middle-ear infections and other medical problems. Measles symptoms may include a runny nose, low-grade fever, coughs and a rash that appears first on the face and then all over the body, health officials said. Symptoms may last four to five days.

In case you missed it, they are saying the vaccine is NOT working. Not only that but the vaccines we adults have had are making our children MORE vulnerable. The vaccine given during an outbreak may not even be of benefit because they don’t know if the disease has mutated to be more deadly or if those who have been vaccinated (yes the vaccinated, not unvaccinated) have developed a more severe reaction to the disease.

It should also be noted that of the 3160 who contracted the measles only 11 died, that’s .003481 of the cases. That’s a VERY low mortality rate.

Unless one of those 11 children happens to be one of yours. Then its an UNACCEPTABLE mortality rate.

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[marvin]

ahh yes, let’s look at what I noticed on that link…

Ok, here’s what *I * noticed:

**“In the minds of a lot of people, measles is a benign, harmless, childhood disease,” Dr. Myers said. “It is a very serious problem if you are one of the unlucky few who suffers from complications. For some people, it can be life threatening or life ending.”

Complications from measles can lead to pneumonia, encephalitis, middle-ear infections and other medical problems. Measles symptoms may include a runny nose, low-grade fever, coughs and a rash that appears first on the face and then all over the body, health officials said. Symptoms may last four to five days. **

**In case you missed it, they are saying the vaccine is NOT working. Not only that but the vaccines we adults have had are making our children MORE vulnerable. The vaccine given during an outbreak may not even be of benefit because they don’t know if the disease has mutated to be more deadly or if those who have been vaccinated (yes the vaccinated, not unvaccinated) have developed a more severe reaction to the disease.**Also, the disease is now attacking population groups that have not been vaccinated, perhaps through parental ignorance or neglect, or been exposed to the disease because of their age. Historically, deaths rates have always been high in such groups.

And:

**The current measles epidemic is centered largely in the inner cities, where nutrition is poor and people have limited access to medical care. Poverty and its accompanying malnutrition have long been associated with phenomenally high death rates from measles in the underdeveloped world, probably because of impaired immunity.

“The population that is supporting this epidemic is somewhat comparable to that in India and Africa, where mortality from measles runs between 5 and 10 percent,” Dr. Katz said. **

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It should also be noted that of the 3160 who contracted the measles only 11 died, that’s .003481 of the cases. That’s a VERY low mortality rate.

Unless one of those 11 children happens to be one of yours. Then its an UNACCETPABLE mortality rate.

 

[MooCowSteph]

luvmykids:

I really am having a hard time understanding this whole mercury thing. A child probably ingests more mercury eating a serving of fish than could possibly be in the vaccinations. Or in an infants case, in the breast milk of his mother.

First, I don’t know that the mercury would be passed on through breastmilk, and second, there is a difference between ingesting something and having it injected into the blood stream. When eating it, the body has a chance to get rid of it, especially in an adult with fully developed organs.

 

[kamz]

See now, I just don’t see it that way in either situation at all.

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Maybe it’s parenting so many has taught me I just can’t control the universe or something.

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C* happens to put it simply. Especially with kids.**

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Do you blame yourself if your child gets pnemonia? I doubt it. Do you pat yourself on the back when another kid gets it and yours is healthy as can be? I hope not! If your kid gets sick, then that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. If your kid doesn’t get sick it probably has a lot more to do with pure luck than anything in particuliar the parent did or didn’t do.

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Childhood diseases that are 99% harmless shouldn’t make a parent feel any different, even if they are unfortunate enough to be in the 1% catagory.

See, my point is that just becuase there is some bad out there from vaccines…there is also some bad in not getting those vaccines…I was simply pointing out in that post that sure…I can google “the dangers of having your child vaccinated” and I will get millions of different things and if I google “the dangers of not getting your child vaccinated” I’m going to get just as many things too. When I had my children vaccinated I had to sign a form stating that I understood the risks with vaccines, I did my reserach and after the research, I felt that the benefits outweighed the risks, if…my child would have become ill from the vaccine or God forbid developed autisim…although I would be very deeply upset and would hurt, cry, be angry, still, I would only blame myself, I am a mature enough adult that I can accept responsibility for my decisions and not put them on someone else.
That doesn’t imply to every area of life but on this particular topic of vaccines…yes, in my opinion it does… I can’t come crying and such if my child develps autisim due to an immunization, I read up on it and I fully was aware of the risks and I expect that same from a parent that does not immunize their children, that is totally your right, but God forbid your child comes down with an illness that was totally preventable, be upset, be angry, whatever but don’t pass blame. That is my opinion, it is differnt than yours and as a individual person I am allowed my own opinion and way of living and you yours.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

MariaG:

I pray you do not think I said or somehow implied that.

No single response made me think that. It’s a very divisive issue. There is no middle ground in this thread.

FWIW, my niece contracted encephalitis from her MMR vaccine in 1981.

 

[CatholicSam]

You also have to realize that everything that happens is God’s will. If you vaccinated and your child developed autism or died of encephalitis or heart failure as a result, that would be God’s will, not “your fault.” And if you decided to abstain from morally questionable vaccines and ended up contracting an illness, that would be God’s will, too, and not “your fault” for not vaccinating against your conscience.

When I started reading this thread earlier today I felt siezed by a sense of panic at having to choose between these two evils–vaccinate and risk the side effects, or opt out of the vaccines and risk the diseases. But when I realized that my son and my family are in God’s hands, and that He won’t let anything happen to us that He doesn’t allow, I felt a weight lifted off of me. JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU!

I did some research, and the age two keeps coming up as a relatively safe age to administer vaccines. At this time (my son will be 15 months in 2 weeks), we’ll hold off on the MMR altogether, and when he’s 18-24 months old, he’ll get the measles vax alone. Thank goodness I am a SAHM and we have *very * limited exposure to anyone and especially to those in high-risk groups I would still be interested to hear how others have/plan to break up the vaccine schedule, and more info on the breastmilk diminishing side effects would be much appreciated.

 

[kamz]

See now, I just don’t see it that way in either situation at all.

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Maybe it’s parenting so many has taught me I just can’t control the universe or something.

---

C* happens to put it simply. Especially with kids.**

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Do you blame yourself if your child gets pnemonia? I doubt it. Do you pat yourself on the back when another kid gets it and yours is healthy as can be? I hope not! If your kid gets sick, then that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. If your kid doesn’t get sick it probably has a lot more to do with pure luck than anything in particuliar the parent did or didn’t do.

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Childhood diseases that are 99% harmless shouldn’t make a parent feel any different, even if they are unfortunate enough to be in the 1% catagory.

Well, we all have our own thought and opinions on this subject and there is nothing wrong with that, I think the world is full of people who don’t agree on many, many things but that doesn’t mean that we can’t be good christians to eachother and that is what is most important. I respect your opinion. Peace

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Detroit Sue:

No single response made me think that. It’s a very divisive issue. There is no middle ground in this thread.

There IS middle ground for some. I, for one, am actually not against vaccines in and of themselves.

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For many people such as myself, it depends on the vaccine, what the vaccine is for, and the conditions it is given under.

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For example, tetanus is not made from aborted material and you can wait to get it when it’s needed. As a matter of fact, even with having had all the shots - if you step on a nail, they recommend you get the shot again just to be safe.

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**

Unless one of those 11 children happens to be one of yours. Then its an UNACCETPABLE mortality rate.

/QUOTE]

But if a kid is one of the ones to have complications from the shots, that is acceptable? This is one outbreak with 11 deaths (and no one here is saying those dc won’t be missed), but milliions of vaccinations are resulting in literally 100’s of claims a year.

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The chances of any of my kids dying of even a harsh disease such as polio some day are mighty slim, but getting the vaccine is a guaranteed risk to them today.

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I don’t think any parent is a wrong for making what they feel is the best choice for their kids, whether it’s to get a shot or not or to wait or whatever.

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What’s important is that we have access to information to make the best choice for our families, however we may interpret and use that information.**

 

[luvmykids]

MooCowSteph:

First, I don’t know that the mercury would be passed on through breastmilk, and second, there is a difference between ingesting something and having it injected into the blood stream. When eating it, the body has a chance to get rid of it, especially in an adult with fully developed organs.

Your body does not get rid of it metals and chemicals. It gets into the bloodstream just the same and into the breastmilk as well.

 

[MariaG]

Princess_Abby:

My brother was one of those kiddos. He received his MMR shots on time and still got measles. The rest of us vaccinated siblings did NOT however, despite being exposed to him. I remember our doctor reported his case to the state.

I have been pondering all of this a great deal as we await the birth of our baby daughter…

Spacecadet–which vax did you split up and on what schedule?

We split up the vacines as well as delayed them also. As long as your child does not have to go into daycare you can put them off and spread them out.

After talking with my doctor on it, we spread out the shots and gave a couple at a time but never the same kind (the nurse gave this a term that I cannot remember )so as to not overwhelm his immune system.

The good news is he never had the reactions the older ones did when I let them give all of them at once, but the slightly bad news? He hates going to the doctor because for about 3 years, every time he went he got another shot.

We wanted to get them done by the time he was 3 because we wanted him to be able to attend preschool, but if you were not planning on preschool, I would spread them out even more and have them done right before they were ready to enter school. If homeschooling, I would still probably keep to a school age schedule since at that age, you do go out and about more often.

I would have to go and talk to the doctor, to get the exact schedule, but I found just talking to your doc about your concerns is great. The main reason they give the shots all at once is that many people can’t or won’t go back often enough to spread out the shots. Most shot clinics where it is cheaper won’t work with you on it. I had to go through my doctor, and that can be much more expensive. But I felt it was important to be vacinated but I also felt the overload to an infants system was wrong.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

MooCowSteph:

First, I don’t know that the mercury would be passed on through breastmilk, and second, there is a difference between ingesting something and having it injected into the blood stream. When eating it, the body has a chance to get rid of it, especially in an adult with fully developed organs.

Just to clarify…

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Mercury is an organ targeting toxin, specificly the brain. Thus the concern of mental/developmental problems.

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It may come through breastmilk in minute amounts, but your blood/digestive system does NOT filter it at all. Once in, it’s in for good. That why contaminated fish is dangerous to eat, once it enters the fish it just keeps building up - it does not leave the body. So when you eat contaminated fish, it’s not just the mercury it swam through this week that you consume - it’s ALL the mercury it has ever come into contact with. Wild caught or deep sea fish is so far safe to eat, btw.

 

[Princess_Abby]

MariaG:

We split up the vacines as well as delayed them also. As long as your child does not have to go into daycare you can put them off and spread them out.

After talking with my doctor on it, we spread out the shots and gave a couple at a time but never the same kind (the nurse gave this a term that I cannot remember )so as to not overwhelm his immune system.

The good news is he never had the reactions the older ones did when I let them give all of them at once, but the slightly bad news? He hates going to the doctor because for about 3 years, every time he went he got another shot.

We wanted to get them done by the time he was 3 because we wanted him to be able to attend preschool, but if you were not planning on preschool, I would spread them out even more and have them done right before they were ready to enter school. If homeschooling, I would still probably keep to a school age schedule since at that age, you do go out and about more often.

I would have to go and talk to the doctor, to get the exact schedule, but I found just talking to your doc about your concerns is great. The main reason they give the shots all at once is that many people can’t or won’t go back often enough to spread out the shots. Most shot clinics where it is cheaper won’t work with you on it. I had to go through my doctor, and that can be much more expensive. But I felt it was important to be vacinated but I also felt the overload to an infants system was wrong.

God Bless,
Maria

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

Were you concerned about being pregnant around unvaccinated children in the home and/or waiting too long (even though just a few years of the child’s life) and increasing the chance your child could have exposure prior to vaccination? (Like pertussis, for instance.)

I will be a SAHM and have limited exposure to high-risk groups, other then perhaps my neice who will soon be in pre-school but I assume most of those kiddies are vaccinated (as she is).

We do want to vaccinate (at least most of them) but I just can’t imagine injecting my itty bitty baby with some of what I read goes into vaccines…yet I don’t want to leave her vulnerable…or an unborn sibling vulnerable should I get pregnant again soon…and I am never sure what to trust when I read about vaccines because it does seem to be panic-oriented (on both sides). My dilemma is more about WHEN to vaccinate and not IF, if that makes sense.