Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

[Jimmy_B]

JMJ

unworthysinner,

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but none of the bible verses that you have used here to counter my position, have anything to do with the mine quote. Maybe you see something I don’t?

The verses you quoted here have to do with defending your faith. They have absolutely nothing to do with “boasting”, that you know for sure, that you will go to heaven.

They have absolutely nothing to do with, not being “ashamed” of “boasting” that you know for sure, that you will go to heaven.

**

Here is my entire quote. I have separated my quote into eight separate quotes. Please let me know which of these statements you disagree with and why?

1.* This sort of belief, that “I know” I’m going to heaven, because I’ve been saved, is not a very humble belief.*

2. This would be like going to court as a defendant in a criminal case and say “I know” I will be found not guilty.

3. It is not in your hands, you don’t know, you can only hope.

4. .That’s what Jesus gave us, hope! Not a guarantee.

*5. We must always try with humility to avoid sin. *

*6. We must always try to obey Gods laws. *

*7. We must love and worship God with all of our heart, mind and soul. *

8. We will continue to sin and when we do we must reconcile with our Father and come back to the light.

If anything, your verses go against your position “once saved, always saved”

Can you please tell me what you believe this to mean?

Taken from the verses that you provided:

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith,

God Bless

 

[adstrinity]

Ahhhhhh! lightbulb BUT, this will not stand with Protestants (if this hasn’t been brought up before) because in the modern Protestant Bible, (New International Version), the passage reads thusly: 316“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

See that? “shall not” & “that whoever”…so, now it’s down to a translation interpretation. IF this has been adressed already, I apologise.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Stone, your quote:
No, "might not, does not mean “maybe.”

Response:

**
**
Webster’s Dictionary

MAYBE / Definition: 1. May"be, adv. For it may be.]Perhaps; possibly; peradventure.2. May"be, a.Possible; probable, but not sure. R.]3. May"be, n.Possibility**; **uncertainty. R.]

MIGHT / **Definition:**1. [v] expresses possibility;
The words might and maybe can be inner-changed, example;

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. I might

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. Maybe

Neither word might nor maybe mean absolutely certain.

Stone, you might or might not be correct, maybe, maybe not, Who knows? Thanks for the response. God Bless!

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

Let’s again revisit the quote from Hebrews 6. This set of verses is clearly talking about people of faith. In Hebrews 6:1-3 we see the context which you deny… .

First of all, the readers are exhorted to leave the elementary principles of Christ, literally, “the word of the beginning of Christ”, or “the beginning word of Christ” (KSW). We understand this to mean the basic doctrines of religion that were taught in the OT and were designed to prepare Israel for the coming of the Messiah. These doctrines are listed in the latter part of verse 1 and in verse 2. They are not the fundamental doctrines of Christianity but rather teachings of an elementary nature which formed the foundation for later building. They fell short of Christ risen and glorified. The exhortation is to leave these basics, not in the sense of abandoning them as worthless, but rather of advancing from them to maturity. The implication is that the period of Judaism was a time of spiritual infancy. Christianity represents full growth.
Once a foundation has been laid, the next step is to build upon it. A doctrinal foundation was laid in the OT; it included the six fundamental teachings which are now listed. These represent a starting point. The great NT truths concerning Christ, His Person, and His work, represent the ministry of maturity.

The first OT doctrine is repentance from dead works. This was preached constantly by the prophets as well as by the forerunner of the Messiah. They all called on the people to turn from works that were dead in the sense that they were devoid of faith.

Dead works here may also refer to works which formerly were right, but which now are dead since Christ has come. For example, all the services connected with temple worship are outmoded by the finished work of Christ.

Second, the writer mentions faith toward God. This again is an OT emphasis. In the NT, Christ is almost invariably presented as the object of faith. Not that this displaces faith in God; but a faith in God which leaves out Christ is now inadequate.

6:2 Instruction about baptisms refers not to Christian baptism,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=548966#_ftn4 but to the ceremonial washings which figured so prominently in the religious lives of the priests and people of Israel (see also 9:10).

The ritual of laying on of hands is described in Leviticus 1:4; 3:2; 16:21. The offerer or the priest laid his hands on the head of an animal as an act of identification. In figure, the animal bore away the sins of the people who were associated with it. This ceremony typified vicarious atonement. I do not believe that there is any reference here to the laying on of hands as practiced by the apostles and others in the early church (Acts 8:17; 13:3; 19:6).

Resurrection of the dead is taught in Job 19:25–27, Psalm 17:15, and it is implied in Isaiah 53:10–12. What was seen only indistinctly in the OT is brightly revealed in the New (2 Tim. 1:10).

The final foundational truth of the OT was eternal judgment (Ps. 9:17; Isa. 66:24).

These first principles represented Judaism, and were preparatory to the coming of Christ. Christians should not continue to be content with these but should press on to the fuller revelation they now have in Christ. The readers are urged to pass “from shadow to substance, from type to antitype, from husk to kernel, from the dead forms of the religion of their ancestors to the living realities of Christ.”

Do you still believe those listed in verses 4-6 are Born-again Christians? The things in verses 4-6, 8 do not accompany salvation. Read verse 9 the writer of Hebrews begins to address believers then.

 

[unworthysinner]

Stone, your quote:

Response:

The words might and maybe can be inner-changed, example;

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. I might

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. Maybe

Neither word might nor maybe mean absolutely certain.

Stone, you might or might not be correct, maybe, maybe not, Who knows? Thanks for the response. God Bless!

I’m curious of your ignoring the word “never”…
Webster:

1 : not ever : at no time <I never met her>
2 : not in any degree : not under any condition <never the wiser for his experience>

John 10:28-29
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyman pluck them out of my hand.29My Father, which gavethem me, is greater than all; and noman is able to pluckthem out of my Father’s hand.

When will those who have been given eternal life lose it?
Never

Once Saved Always Saved

But what if we sin?
Never perish
And Romans 6 deals with this very issue of a “born-again” believer using the security of eternal life as a license to sin.

Romans 6:1-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freeda from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul certainly doesn’t say that sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation but that they should walk in newness of life. He even says that once we are dead to sin, how could we ever live to it again. Later Paul writes there is present tense NO condemnation…

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Continued…

 

[unworthysinner]

Should I pull up webster’s definition of no and of comdemnation and see what loophole there is that a believer could fall through to make what you claim(once saved, maybe saved) biblical. Sorry the Bible says believers will never perish, have no condemnation, held by the power of God, in the hands of both the Father and the Son, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Paul even goes so far as to say nothing can seperate us from the love of God, in this life or in death…life and death, that definitely covers anything “I” can do to lose my salvation. And nothing else created cannot seperate me either. So to believe (once saved, maybe saved) is to cast doubt on God himself and His promises.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If there is still any doubt, Epehsians records…

Ephesians 2:1-10

1 And you hath he quickened(means make alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened(there’s that word again) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his** kindness toward us** through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not only have we been made alive with Christ; we have also been raised up with Him. Just as death and judgment are behind Him, they are behind us also. We stand on the resurrection side of the tomb. This is our glorious position as a result of our union with Him. And because it is true of us positionally, we should live as those who are alive from the dead.
Another aspect of our position is that we are seated in Him in the heavenly places in Christ. By our union with Him we are seen as already delivered from this present evil world and seated in Christ in glory. This is how God sees us. If we appropriate it by faith, it will change the character of our lives. We will no longer be earthbound, occupied with the trivial and the transient. We will seek those things which are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).

The key to verses 5 and 6 is the phrase, in Christ Jesus.

 

[Stone]

Stone, your quote:

Response:

The words might and maybe can be inner-changed, example;

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. I might

Q. Will you change your mind regarding OSAS?
A. Maybe

Neither word might nor maybe mean absolutely certain.

Stone, you might or might not be correct, maybe, maybe not, Who knows? Thanks for the response. God Bless!

Jimmy, if I said, “This house is for sale so that whosoever buys it might not be homeless.” Would you conclude by this statement that the buyers of the house have the possibilty of being homeless? If you’re honest you would say “no.”

Jn. 3:16 is to be read and understood in the way.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

First of all, the readers are exhorted to leave the elementary principles of Christ, literally, “the word of the beginning of Christ”, or “the beginning word of Christ” (KSW). We understand this to mean the basic doctrines of religion that were taught in the OT and were designed to prepare Israel for the coming of the Messiah. These doctrines are listed in the latter part of verse 1 and in verse 2. They are not the fundamental doctrines of Christianity but rather teachings of an elementary nature which formed the foundation for later building. They fell short of Christ risen and glorified. The exhortation is to leave these basics, not in the sense of abandoning them as worthless, but rather of advancing from them to maturity. The implication is that the period of Judaism was a time of spiritual infancy. Christianity represents full growth.
Once a foundation has been laid, the next step is to build upon it. A doctrinal foundation was laid in the OT; it included the six fundamental teachings which are now listed. These represent a starting point. The great NT truths concerning Christ, His Person, and His work, represent the ministry of maturity.

The first OT doctrine is repentance from dead works. This was preached constantly by the prophets as well as by the forerunner of the Messiah. They all called on the people to turn from works that were dead in the sense that they were devoid of faith.

Dead works here may also refer to works which formerly were right, but which now are dead since Christ has come. For example, all the services connected with temple worship are outmoded by the finished work of Christ.

Second, the writer mentions faith toward God. This again is an OT emphasis. In the NT, Christ is almost invariably presented as the object of faith. Not that this displaces faith in God; but a faith in God which leaves out Christ is now inadequate.

6:2 Instruction about baptisms refers not to Christian baptism,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=548966#_ftn4 but to the ceremonial washings which figured so prominently in the religious lives of the priests and people of Israel (see also 9:10).

The ritual of laying on of hands is described in Leviticus 1:4; 3:2; 16:21. The offerer or the priest laid his hands on the head of an animal as an act of identification. In figure, the animal bore away the sins of the people who were associated with it. This ceremony typified vicarious atonement. I do not believe that there is any reference here to the laying on of hands as practiced by the apostles and others in the early church (Acts 8:17; 13:3; 19:6).

Resurrection of the dead is taught in Job 19:25–27, Psalm 17:15, and it is implied in Isaiah 53:10–12. What was seen only indistinctly in the OT is brightly revealed in the New (2 Tim. 1:10).

The final foundational truth of the OT was eternal judgment (Ps. 9:17; Isa. 66:24).

These first principles represented Judaism, and were preparatory to the coming of Christ. Christians should not continue to be content with these but should press on to the fuller revelation they now have in Christ. The readers are urged to pass “from shadow to substance, from type to antitype, from husk to kernel, from the dead forms of the religion of their ancestors to the living realities of Christ.”

Do you still believe those listed in verses 4-6 are Born-again Christians? The things in verses 4-6, 8 do not accompany salvation. Read verse 9 the writer of Hebrews begins to address believers then.

You have written at some length here but you have not refuted one thing that was said to you. Moreover, you did not address the definition of apostasy which thoroughly negates your position. In your final statement you still proclaim that verses 4-6 and 8 do not accompany salvation. This is merely a statement without foundation. I have already clearly and definitively demonstrated that they do. You claim that the author of Hebrews begins to address believers at verse 9. This is laughable as it is clearly indicated in all of chapter five and six that he is addressing believers. In fact the whole book is written to believers and addresses believers and warns them of apostasy and its consequences. Now tie all of this together with Hebrews 2:1-3 where the same author says, "Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape **if we neglect ** such a great salvation?

The whole letter is to Christians and about Christians and is a set of warnings. This is inescapable, this is scripture, this is the truth of the holy word of God.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

You obviously place great emphasis on “salvation by faith alone” and on “OSAS.” I respect your sense of conviction. We all hold our religious beliefs dearly for they are integral parts of our relationship to the Lord. You depend greatly upon the words of Paul for you doctrinal positions. As Catholics we believe that your position is not consistent with scripture in general or with what the apostle Paul really teaches.

I will now ask you to directly address the following quotes from the apostle Paul. Please address these verses “directly.” Perform an exegesis on these verses independant of your church traditions of “faith alone” and “OSAS.” Please note that I have placed emphasis on certain words in the passages for you to ponder.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided you continue ** in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Romans 2:6-11
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children,** if ** she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Colossians 1: 21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, **provided that you continue ** in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now please explain from these passages why Paul puts provisional terms such as “if” and “provided that you continue” into his teaching if he believes in OSAS. Also explain how Paul could say what he did in Romans 2:6-11 if he really believed in being saved by faith alone or if he believed in OSAS. And in reference to Romans 11:20-21you need to tell us
how anyone who has faith can be “cut off” or “not be spared” if OSAS is true? And why would the apostle find it necessary to warn Christians about their salvation in these various ways if he was teaching OSAS?

And please, stick to the verses and use exegesis not eisegesis to see what the apostle is obviously stating.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Stone, your quote -

Jimmy, if I said, “This house is for sale so that whosoever buys it might not be homeless.” Would you conclude by this statement that the buyers

of the house have the possibility of being homeless? If you’re honest you would say “no.”

Thank you for your response. Great point, I had to think about this one.

Q. Would you conclude by this statement, that the
buyer(s) of the house have the possibility of (not) being homeless?

A. Yes, I would agree with you that the buyer(s) would no longer be homeless, once they purchased the home and moved in. However If those same buyer(s) failed to make payments (obey Gods laws) they could face foreclosure, be evicted and become homeless again.

Stone, I guess OAHOAAHO (Once A Home Owner Always A Home Owner) is a lot like OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). As long as we have free will. We have free will to fail to make house payments (consequence-loss of home) and we have free will not to obey God’s laws (consequence – loss of heaven). In both situations, there are consequences for our actions. I believe that everything that occurs is by God’s will. This would include our salvation. You cannot assume the Lord’s job and decide for yourself whether or not; you are worthy enough to enter heaven. “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord”. Wouldn’t you agree, it might be wise to approach this issue (Salvation) fully surrendering to our Lord and Savior with complete humility and trust (faith) and leave the decision up to God?

Stone, I’ll be looking forward to your response, thanks again. God Bless!

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

I have given sufficient time and energy to both the Book of Hebrews and the teachings of Paul to demonstrate that you are in error on OSAS. Since you attempted to also rely on the apostle, Peter, for support of OSAS, I will now give attention to his letters as well. While none of your quotes from Peter actually demonstrate OSAS, your last quote actually refutes it. You quoted 2 Peter 1:10-17 and placed in bold many statements that you felt helped support your position. Interestingly enough you failed to emphasize a “provisional” word that is fatal to your case., Please note the following from 2 Peter: 1:10. “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” Like Paul, Peter qualifies his remarks with the word “if.”

Now before I go any further with this I need to point out something very important to you. The opening statement of Peter’s epistle says, " Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"[2 Peter 1:1] Clearly, Peter is speaking to Christians of equal standing to his in the faith. They are just “as saved as he is,” yet he places qualifiers and conditions on his teachings to them that preclude OSAS. He is telling fellow Christians of equal standing with him in the faith “to give diligence to make your calling and election sure: if you do these things, ye shall never fall.”

Now let’s see what else Peter has to say about salvation to Christians of equal standing to his in the faith.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

The message in 2 Peter 2:20-22 sounds similar to Hebrews Chapter six. I don’t think this is a coincidence. Moreover, when Peter compares the individual who falls back into the defilements of the world to the sow, we see that Peter says, “the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.” The reference “washed” refers to baptism and the cleansing from sin. Peter is, indeed, refering to the saved falling from grace.

Then we read this:

2 Peter 3:17-18
“You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and “lose” your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”

Please note that the stability Peter is talking about pertains to their faith and therefore their salvation, and that it is something they can “lose.”

So what about Peter’s first epistle. What does he teach in that letter? Well first of all we know from the opening verses that he is again talking to Christians because he says, “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, **chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:**May grace and peace be multiplied to you.”

Then we read this:

1 Peter 5: 8-9
“Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

If OSAS were true we would not have to be in the least bit concerned about the devil because he would not be able to devour us. Moreover, if we were saved by faith alone we would not have to resist the devil, firm in our faith, in order to prevent him from devouring us. But this is not the case. We must resist the devil so as not to be devoured and OSAS is not true.

 

[Hebrews_10]

Jim B:

Dear Christian Friends,
I see you’re having a spirited discussion about who is ‘saved’ or not.
Since this topic concerns the legitimacy of the Catholic Church, I find
it appropriate to share this with you.
Just some good news here for the ‘good of the order.’

The joy found from a Jew discovering the Messiah is
ever new - no matter how recently it occured.

At the conclusion of WWII, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli,
converted to Catholicism. His story is wonderfully told in the book
he wrote, Before the Dawn.

When asked “Why didn’t you choose one of the Protestant denominations, which are not so demanding?”, Zolli replied,
“Because protesting is not attesting.”

What an elegant testimony, a faith which professes what it
believes (attesting), rather than protesting against what it does
not believe (protestantism).
Something for our non-Catholic brothers and
sisters to consider.

God Love Ya!
Jim B

Wow I feel some strong anti-protestant feelings. So, at the risk of being warned, I have to ask, “Why is everything about the church and not about Christ?” Luther was a protestant against wrong theology and not against the “church”. I do not conform to the teaching of man because I fear man, I conform to the teaching of Christ because I fear eternity without God. Catholic vs Non- Catholic, I think something has been lost in the translation here. It is all about Christ and Only Christ. Hebrews 13:9 says do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. There are so many things wrong with the teachings of the Churches both protestant and catholic that I am so glad I can come boldy to the Throne of Grace as someone who has been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. For Christ died once the just for the unjust that He might bring us back to the Father. I can not hope to do any good works of my own accord, it is only by submitting my life to the One who cleansed me that His Spirit works through me. Anything good that happens is only through His Work not mine. Not the churches, not any teachers only His. No where in the Bible will we find one reference to a denomination or church organization, only Paul’s references to “the believers in Phillipi” and “the believers in Ephesus” Why do we have such anymosity towards our brothers and sisters around the world who boldy proclaim the risin Christ no matter what denomination or sect. The only question I ask of someone who claims to be Christian is this: Who is Jesus Christ and how are you saved? If the answer is the Jesus of the Bible, the great I AM the Messiah, the Only Begotten of the Father and through His blood alone, then I know they are one of the believers Paul spoke of.

In Christ Alone,
Hebrews 10

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

You have written at some length here but you have not refuted one thing that was said to you. Moreover, you did not address the definition of apostasy which thoroughly negates your position. In your final statement you still proclaim that verses 4-6 and 8 do not accompany salvation. This is merely a statement without foundation. I have already clearly and definitively demonstrated that they do. You claim that the author of Hebrews begins to address believers at verse 9. This is laughable as it is clearly indicated in all of chapter five and six that he is addressing believers. In fact the whole book is written to believers and addresses believers and warns them of apostasy and its consequences. Now tie all of this together with Hebrews 2:1-3 where the same author says, "Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape **if we neglect **such a great salvation?

The whole letter is to Christians and about Christians and is a set of warnings. This is inescapable, this is scripture, this is the truth of the holy word of God.

If the writer of Hebrews is addressing believers who have salvation in Hebrews 6:1-4, would you tell me what is “better” in verse 9? The passage hinges on verse 9, he shifts the topic of his letter with the word “But” in verse 9, if he’s addressing born-again believers the entire time he would use the word “and”.

I have given you an answer several times to this passage, but my answer disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture according to what you’ve been taught(that grace can be earned, and salvation only depends on the state of grace at death). These are not Biblical doctrines. As I have shown, believers have been(past tense, not some future hope or in accordance with them observing mass, confession, baptism, etc) sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now if you can find a verse that says someone can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit, or break the grip of the Father and the Son, then your claim of it being possible for a “born-again” Christian to lose his salvation would hold water.

I say again the Bible says believers will never perish, have no condemnation, are held by the power of God, in the hands of both the Father and the Son, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Paul even goes so far as to say nothing can seperate us from the love of God, in this life or in death.

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

You obviously place great emphasis on “salvation by faith alone” and on “OSAS.” I respect your sense of conviction. We all hold our religious beliefs dearly for they are integral parts of our relationship to the Lord. You depend greatly upon the words of Paul for you doctrinal positions. As Catholics we believe that your position is not consistent with scripture in general or with what the apostle Paul really teaches.

I place great emphasis because Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Him. Christ says(John 10:28-30) to believe in Him to receive the gift of eternal life, that will never perish. Believers(Eph 2:8-9) “in Christ Jesus” are saved by grace through faith(nothing else is mentioned that saves) and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. Not of works(faith alone), so that no one may boast. Those “in Christ Jesus” are brought near by blood of Christ. Your statement that I depend greatly on Paul for my doctrine(He wrote half the New Testament) makes little sense, would you have me base my doctrine on only the 2 letters of Peter, or perhaps just the book of James, or maybe John, I II + III John, and Revelation. I pull my doctrine from the entire New Testament. And there is application for me as a believer from all 66 books of the Word of God.

Pax:

I will now ask you to directly address the following quotes from the apostle Paul. Please address these verses “directly.” Perform an exegesis on these verses independant of your church traditions of “faith alone” and “OSAS.” Please note that I have placed emphasis on certain words in the passages for you to ponder.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Two verse context ay? I will get back to you on all those verses when I have time to prayerfully consider them. But I wanted to point out the contradiction in your words and what is in the verse you quoted. Paul speaking of faith alone, might want to consider it.

 

[Sanning]

In my Bible John 3:16 says"that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life". This is all I need to know that I will be going to heaven.
Regards,
Andrew Smith

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

I have given you an answer several times to this passage, but my answer disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture according to what you’ve been taught(that grace can be earned, and salvation only depends on the state of grace at death). These are not Biblical doctrines.

For your own edification let me assure you that I have never been taught that grace could be earned. The Catholic Church does not teach that grace can be earned. You are severly misinformed.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

If the writer of Hebrews is addressing believers who have salvation in Hebrews 6:1-4, would you tell me what is “better” in verse 9? The passage hinges on verse 9, he shifts the topic of his letter with the word “But” in verse 9, if he’s addressing born-again believers the entire time he would use the word “and”.

You are desparate and making far too much of what is contained in verse 9. I have already pointed out to you that the author is giving warnings to Christians. That does not mean that they have already fallen victim to, or will fall victim to, what he is warning them about. This is really quite obvious.

 

[Pax]

Sanning:

In my Bible John 3:16 says"that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life". This is all I need to know that I will be going to heaven.
Regards,
Andrew Smith

If you really believe that this is all you need without understanding the implications of this verse then let me expand on this just a little. Believing in Jesus means that you believe “everything” that Jesus did, said, and commanded. And never forget what it means to “live.” To be spiritually alive or to live is to be in Christ. And Jesus Christ said, "“It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Jesus isn’t just our savior. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. His kingship should mean something to us. Believing includes loving God above all things, and being obedient to Him.

Your one verse system leaves out the bulk of scripture which was given to us by God. While John 3:16 is an awesome and wonderful verse of scripture, it is not the entirety of scripture.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

Your statement that I depend greatly on Paul for my doctrine(He wrote half the New Testament) makes little sense, would you have me base my doctrine on only the 2 letters of Peter, or perhaps just the book of James, or maybe John, I II + III John, and Revelation. I pull my doctrine from the entire New Testament. And there is application for me as a believer from all 66 books of the Word of God.

Actually, I wish you would use the entirety of scripture and not “misuse” the apostle Paul. No one is suggesting that anyone take their doctrines from only one or two books. What I have been trying to point out to you is your selective use of scripture, none of which proves OSAS, as well as your tendency to simply ignore those verses that clearly refute it. I even went to the apostle Paul’s writings to demonstrate this. Moreover, your efforts to get around the quotes from Hebrews violate common sense, linguistic usage, and the rules of exegesis.

Please understand that most non-Catholic Christians also argue against OSAS. Even five point Calvinists argue against OSAS, but argue in favor of “perseverence of the saints.” The two concepts are different in case you didn’t know.

 

[Pax]

Hebrews 10,

If I have been giving off anti-Protestant vibes, I apologize to you and everyone else on this thread. I have learned a great deal from my Protestant brothers and sisters and I do not mean to offend or demean anyone.

I will be more circumspect in the future.