Catholic Women in Germany Demand Reform

[MamaJewel]

Unfortunately, Junia was not a priest.

Sure she was. She was an apostle, out of St. Paul’s mouth.

the Church has NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN

Sure it does. The Church can do as it sees fit. Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven.

St. Brigid of Kildare was an abbess that could make a killer brew and the freshest churned butter. Oh, she also said Mass and heard confession.

the Inquisition’

Oy Va. The Inquisition was carried out by papal decree. It wasn’t some bad peeps in the Church. The directive literally came from the Chair of Peter. Btw, it clearly states in the scriptures “Thou shalt not kill” and the Inquisition involved murder of those deemed heretics. It does not say in scripture that women can’t be priests, if need be (especially in cultures where an unmarried man is not allowed in the presence of unmarried women who are not a family member).

But when I mentioned that the Church treats women as second class citizens, I’m talking about the injustices that we have seen throughout the ages. The manner in which nuns have been treated is very telling of the Church’s attitude toward women. And those issues involve the hierarchy up to the pope himself.

Also, women who were deemed “sinful” that were placed into Magdalene homes or those who were unmarried single women and girls who were told their babies died at birth, only to later find out their child had been taken and unlawfully adopted to others.

The absolute sickest lived experienced I had was when I reached out to my parish priest following being cheated on the first time. That priest actually had the audacity to tell me that I needed to use birth control or get fixed because the bishop permits it for a wife/mother with many children whose husband is a sex addict. I flat out called him on his misogynistic attitude because I wasn’t the one with a problem with my sexuality.

I think you and I are comparing apples to oranges at this point. But I can’t speak for the lived experiences of the women in Germany. They know why they expect reforms in their places of worship.

 

[stpurl]

Mary Magdalene was called the apostle to the apostles. But she was not a priest. Merely being called an apostle did not confer priesthood on an individual.

No, the Church ‘can’t’ just decide to ‘ordain women’.

Some people seem to have the mistaken idea that because the Church can work on HOW to implement a teaching that it can also ‘change’ a teaching. They also don’t know the difference between a teaching that has been definitively discerned to completeness as opposed to one which is still being discerned, AND also that there is simply no way that a doctrine or dogma of the Church can ever be discerned to be understood as ‘opposite’ to its original teaching.

The early Church was given the revelation that God is a Trinity. It is still not completely understood HOW God is a Trinity. The understanding of this in the 1st century AD is probably somewhat different from the understanding of the 21st century AD, but it was never understood that in the 1st century that God was a ‘duo’ with a nebulous’ power’ that ‘became’ the Holy Spirit, for example, nor will our understanding ‘develop’ in the 21st century such that we apply a ‘fourth’ person to the Trinity, whether “Mary” or “Sophia” or whatever.

Some people persist in thinking that ‘women’s ordination’ is something that ‘the men thunk up’ because God just ‘couldn’t enforce women priests back THEN’ or some other piece of tripe passed off as ‘scholarship’ and that now that wonderful WE know that men and women are perfectly equal, “The Church’ needs to change the ‘outmoded teaching’ to reflect this correct understanding blah phooey. IF this were purely a teaching of men, if priesthood was just ‘another job’, if this weren’t God Himself saying, “My Church has NO AUTHORITY from Me to ordain women, not because they aren’t good enough but because priesthood is something beyond gender and this is something I have decided for all time:. ., But it isn’t. It isn’t what ‘I say’ or my opinion, it’s what GOD has said. Personally I think a little humility in listening to God instead of demanding that HE adjust Himself to US would go a long way.

 

[MamaJewel]

Personally I think a little humility in listening to God instead of demanding that HE adjust Himself to US would go a long way.

like I said earlier, if the Church were to find definitive proof that women were priests that said Mass in the early Church, then a pope could allow for women priests. Heck, the pope could declare it anyway, if He wanted to. The pope is the pope. He has the keys to the kingdom. The pope was given the authority to bind and loose from Christ directly, via St. Peter.

The early Christian Church did not have the same rules and regulations that we have today. They home-churched. They didn’t even have church buildings for the first few centuries. And St. Junia preached like St. Paul and was imprisoned like St Paul. St. Paul called her an Apostle. It is in the Bible.

 

[stpurl]

You really do not understand Catholicism, it seems. Simply positing ‘what ifs’ and then deciding that the Pope ‘can do’ something just because you THINK he can is meaningless.

I understand you really, really, REALLY want to find a reason for the Church to do something you want it to do. But it’s not going to happen.

The Pope —Pope ST. John Paul 2 to be exact, and within your lifetime, definitively declared that “The Church has no Authority to ordain women” and this statement was further solemnly attested to by Pope Benedict XVI. These are ‘contemporary popes’ who had all the knowledge of ‘today’, and by your argument, they ‘could have’ changed the teaching which has existed from the time of the apostles. Instead, they affirmed that teaching. And Popes will continue to do so. Pope FRANCIS has done so.

And your arguments about ‘the early Christian church are, pardon me, risible. A. We don’t know all that much about the early Christian Church. B. St, Julia is still not a priest.

 

[MamaJewel]

Pope ‘can do’ something just because you THINK he can is meaningless

I can think whatever.
Holy New Testament scripture tells us that Peter was given the keys to God’s Kingdom, granting Peter and future popes the power to bind and loose here on earth and in heaven.

The reason the contemporary popes state that the Church does not have the Authority ordain women is because these very popes don’t see a historical precedent for it.

A. We don’t know all that much about the early Christian Church.

Bingo!
You prove my point.
So, how do you know women weren’t priests in early Christianity?
St. Junia could have very well been ordained to bring females into Christianity. Umm, back in the day, converts were nude when they were baptized. So male priests were baptizing naked females? Maybe Greek and Roman women, but not Jewish women. Probably not Canaanite women either.

The absence of evidence certainly is not the evidence of absence.
That said, even if the Church found evidence of women as priests, it still would not obligate a pope to declare a female priesthood because the pope has to decide what to bind and what to set free as the head of Christ’s Church. I still say, the pope has the Authority to make rules for the Church where he sees fit. After all, it is the pope who answers for our souls when it comes to being the shepherd of the Faithful here on earth.

And I could care less if the Church ordains women as priests, deacons, or acolytes. I’m more concerned with the current (20 years+) on going child sexual assault cover-up in the Church than I am about women being ordained. There is much to be repaired before ever thinking of adding women into the hierarchy mix.

And I still stand by my perspective that women are treated like 2nd class in the Church. Especially after tonight when my ex said our parish priest was going to help him with the annulment process. Every time I approached a priest for help with marriage or family issues, I was cut to the quick.

And such treatment has literally cost my children their souls because they saw the lack of concern for their mother, them, our family unit, and living children in general as evidence that church leadership lies in its teachings on life, sin, family, morals, etc. (My adult children’s ^^ perspective, not my perspective, btw. I had to argue with them that their perspective is wrong, even though they had a different lived experience.)

 

[catholic03]

Sure she was. She was an apostle, out of St. Paul’s mouth.

Women. Can. Not. Be. Priests.

Holy Mother Church has no authority to do this.

 

[twf]

I’m sorry you were treated that way. Priests are fallible human beings, and some can be jerks. I don’t know where you live… but in my experience, that is not the general attitude of priests / the Church.

Regarding the early church and nude baptisms… generally deaconesses baptized women. Not female priests.

 

[gracepoole]

I wish that people would accept that the Church’s doctrine cannot change. If they want what they are asking for, why don’t they just switch to a different religion?

This is nothing to wish for anyone. It is a wish to separate people from Christ. These people may be annoying but we should never want for them to be separated from Christ.

 

[gracepoole]

catholic03:

If they want what they are asking for, why don’t they just switch to a different religion?

That would be the intellectually honest thing to do. But these people are motivated by political ideology, not religious feeling.

This is a horrible assumption. And if it were true, these women would have left long ago.

 

[ThomasMT]

So, how do you know women weren’t priests in early Christianity?

St. Paul’s writings aren’t clear enough on the matter? I really do not see what is left to be debated, but feel free to have at it… I guess.

 

[ThomasMT]

Maximian:

catholic03:

If they want what they are asking for, why don’t they just switch to a different religion?

That would be the intellectually honest thing to do. But these people are motivated by political ideology, not religious feeling.

This is a horrible assumption. And if it were true, these women would have left long ago.

They haven’t left because it would entail creating something new, or joining something different that had already been created. My own assumption would be that they are not interested in creating but destroying.

 

[gracepoole]

Maximian:

Maximian:

catholic03:

If they want what they are asking for, why don’t they just switch to a different religion?

That would be the intellectually honest thing to do. But these people are motivated by political ideology, not religious feeling.

This is a horrible assumption. And if it were true, these women would have left long ago.

They haven’t left because it would entail creating something new, or joining something different that had already been created. My own assumption would be that they are not interested in creating but destroying.

Again, a horrible assumption. It’s far more likely that they believe in the Creed and feel they are Catholics. Leaving the Church, likely, would be as unthinkable for them as it would be for you.

 

[ThomasMT]

Well, it doesnt seem like they believe in scripture, least of all the crystal clear clarity presented by St. Paul, on the matter.

 

[Maximian]

Well, believing in the Creed isn’t exclusive to Catholicism. The Anglicans and Lutherans believe the same identical creed, and have women ministers. Why not join them?

 

[gracepoole]

Well, believing in the Creed isn’t exclusive to Catholicism. The Anglicans and Lutherans believe the same identical creed, and have women ministers. Why not join them?

Obviously I can’t say with certainty. But the Real Presence would be a first guess.

 

[Maximian]

You’dbe wrong. Anglicans believe in the real presence, and have reserved sacrament.

 

[gracepoole]

No, Anglicans believe they have the Real Presence.

But of course, again, I can’t speak for these women. I don’t agree with them. I simply know that for many if not all practicing Catholics, the Church isn’t something that can be easily left – it would be as easy to leave the Church as it would one’s family. And again, we shouldn’t desire that they leave since that means separation from Christ.

 

[ThomasMT]

Leaving the Church, likely, would be as unthinkable for them as it would be for you.

As a matter of fact I had left, because it did not appeal to the sensibilities of my own authority. I wandered for many years as a result. When I returned, I was very grateful that the church never entertained my presumptions that I knew better.

 

[stpurl]

I’m really sorry for your pain but your understanding regarding what the pope can do is simply wrong. And your assertion that Pope St John Paul II and Benedict XVI did not ‘change’ was ‘that they did not see historical precedent’ and stating that as the only ‘reason’ ignores the fact that this was only one facet of the exploration of many centuries’ worth of teaching.

It is not as if the popes ‘just now’ decided to revisit an item ‘up for change’ and decided, ‘hey not now, not yet, not enough info.
Finally, and I’m a mother too, and I have children not practicing the faith for ‘all sorts of reasons’, it is NOT the “Church’s FAULT”, it is not ‘my fault’, it is not “God’s fault’, or some priest’s fault. It is not even necessarily solely ‘the kid’s fault’. One, these things are multifactorial and complicated. Two, we don’t know what people’s FINAL decisions may be. We DO know that God gives every single person sufficient grace to be saved. That any one of us might not be in grace at a given time does not mean that we will not receive that grace at or before death.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Leaving the Church, likely, would be as unthinkable for them as it would be for you.

As a matter of fact I had left, because it did not appeal to the sensibilities of my own authority. I wandered for many years as a result. When I returned, I was very grateful that the church never entertained my presumptions that I knew better.

As a fellow Catholic, I’d have wished and prayed for you to remain in the Church even with questions and concerns.