Catholic Women in Germany Demand Reform

[ThomasMT]

Thank you, but I’ve come to accept that it was simply part of my journey. I needed to be humbled… in a lot of ways I still do. I’m grateful for God’s loving mercy. I’m grateful to have been lead back home by Him. I trust in the Lord’s plan. Pax

 

[MNathaniel]

As a woman, I personally find it insulting that the media always frames this stuff as if all women are on the side of the grumpyboots ‘progressivist’ parade.

Abortion, ‘female priesthood’, whatever the issue… I, as a woman, am a faithful Catholic first. And it is so irritating to see mobs out there that pretend to represent me while advocating for things I’m diametrically opposed to.

 

[Maximian]

I suppose it is as easy to generate a belief in Anglican Orders as a belief in female ordination. Perhaps easier.

 

[twf]

You raise very good points. In their zeal, some well meaning Catholics on this forum seem to be very quick to jump to “why don’t they just leave the Church?”. We don’t want anyone to leave the Church! As long as they are within the Church’s “sphere”, there is still hope that they can be corrected and grow in holiness. The “let’s give up on these people” seems to me an insult against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

The Church would not even exist if it were not for the humility and obedience of a woman as a mother, ironically. “Thy will be done.”

 

[catholic03]

The Church would not even exist if it were not for the humility and obedience of a woman as a mother, ironically. “Thy will be done.”

I agree.

–

 

[MamaJewel]

I wish that people would accept that the Church’s doctrine cannot change. If they want what they are asking for, why don’t they just switch to a different religion?

Why should they be allowed to switch to a “different religion” so they can lead others astray into that false belief system? Wouldn’t it be more prudent for the pope to save more souls from being led astray toward damnation and thus, use his faculties as the pope to declare a papal inquisition that removes such wicked dissenters from the face of the earth?

Now, that papal ability has been exercised through church doctrine before. Why and how, if scripture clearly states, “Thou shall not kill”?

Do you hear what I am saying to you?
Especially when you appear to be judging others harshly?
You keep repeating that a pope has no authority to order a new outcome regarding female priests, even though previous popes have used church doctrines to perpetuate actions that directly go against what has been stated in scripture (ie. “Thou shall not kill” and “Love your enemies”.)

Please understand, those women in Germany and in other places who expect female ordination have their own reasons to believe why it is the Godly thing to do. It isn’t anyone’s place, except the pope’s, to tell them they should leave the Church.

Mark 4:24 (Good News Translation)
He also said to them, “Pay attention to what you hear! The same rules you use to judge others will be used by God to judge you–but with even greater severity”.

St. Paul’s writings aren’t clear enough on the matter?
Well, it doesnt seem like they believe in scripture, least of all the crystal clear clarity presented by St. Paul, on the matter.

Romans 16:7 is pretty straight-forward to me. That clarity isn’t so crystal clear after all.
If St. Junia snuck in there, could there have been other women apostles?
The absence of evidence isn’t the evidence of absence.
I’ve showed one Biblical female apostle.
I’ve referenced another female Christian, St. Brigid of Kildare, who was given the capacity to say Mass and hear Confession, by Bishop- St. Patrick of Ireland.

There’s two women. Were there others? If, no, why not? If yes, why haven’t we heard about them?

I’m sorry you were treated that way.

Thank you for that. It means a lot in this hot mess of gehenna on earth that I’m currently walking through.

Regarding the early church and nude baptisms… generally deaconesses baptized women. Not female priests.

I agree that deaconesses baptized the women.
But I was also taught to believe that Holy Orders consisted of acolyte, deacon, and priest. Deacons are ordained … so I wonder what the real truth of the situation was for Christian women in leadership roles in the early Church.

 

[stpurl]

No need to wonder about the role of women and deacons. There have been several commissions and umpteen scholars. And each time the weight of the evidence clearly shows that women were never ordained as men were ordained.

It’s all right to wonder, that’s how we learn, IF we go and learn from reputable sources and if we don’t keep on asking questions just because we don’t LIKE the answers we get.

“Teacher, I know you say that 4 x 5 is 20, but I don’t like that. I want it to be 18. After all, we ‘round up’ numbers right? If you round up 16, 17, 18, 19, to the nearest ‘ten’, which is 20, then why can’t 4 x 5 be 18? Or 16? Why are insisting on some stupid rigid interpretation in multiplication instead of allowing the freedom of rounding? I’ll bet the ancient Egyptians used rounding. I’ll bet that THEY allowed 4 x 5 to be 18. So I can too!:

 

[ThomasMT]

Romans 16:7 is pretty straight-forward to me. That clarity isn’t so crystal clear after all.
If St. Junia snuck in there, could there have been other women apostles?

Yes, it is. I believe that earlier in the thread, someone already noted that “apostle” doesnt necessarily mean priest. You are referencing exceptional women, no doubt. I don’t see any sign that their authority exceeded that of a nun. As for St. Brigid… she too was a nun, an Abbess in fact. Also an exceptional servant of Christ.
Respectfully, you may be grasping…

https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/cal-6963

Start 28:20. >>> May as well start with a Catholic Answers source

 

[twf]

Regardless of the exact nature of the ancient office of deaconess, women have and continue to play crucial roles in the Church. Powerful and influential roles too. At least in North America (and I imagine much of Europe too), parishes and dioceses, apart from the clergy, tend to be run by women staff. I think of figures like Mother Angelica… surely she had more real power and influence in the Church than most bishops.

And of course the most important member of the Church is a woman… our Blessed Mother… whose glory is greater than that of every priest who ever lived combined.

That all said, the role of women in the Church continues to evolve… and there are certainly roles currently occupied by male clergy that could go to women in the future (certain Curial offices in Rome for example).

 

[MamaJewel]

I’m really sorry for your pain but your understanding regarding what the pope can do is simply wrong

Nope. Yours is. The pope can do as he sees fit for his flock because it is his responsibility to lead the Church.NT Scripture says so.

Finally, and I’m a mother too, and I have children not practicing the faith for ‘all sorts of reasons’, it is NOT the “Church’s FAULT”, it is not ‘my fault’, it is not “God’s fault’, or some priest’s fault.

You don’t know what my kids endured at the hands of those who call themselves Christians.
As far as fault goes…
It surely is my fault and their father’s fault first and foremost, in choosing to do wrong and failing to do good in our marriage and family.
There are a good number of priests who are at fault as well. A bishop, too.
They weren’t living up to their duties as priests. Neither did the Church live up to its duties.

Let me say, the condescension and judgement by many parishioners was unwarranted. My children, and all of God’s children, deserve the love and light of Christ. Children don’t deserve to be treated as if their presence is a burden to Christ, his priests, and his Church.

I won’t go into details, but in our first parish, where my older children and I received our first sacraments, most people were not nice to me and my kids because I practiced NFP and had more children than they thought I should be having. The priests weren’t nice either, in regards to certain sacraments.

When we went limping away from that parish, my six children who were then ages 18 mos to 12 years old, would have been happy to never step foot in another catholic parish. The older ones would sing, “And you’ll know they are Christians by the knife in your back” (instead of “by their love”). That speaks volumes to what those kids endured at that time.

Instead of bitterness, I shared the gospel story about love, forgiveness, faith, children and Jesus. I put on my big girl panties, got Catholic counseling so I could try to process what had been unleashed onto us by my spouse and other Christians, forgave (even though I didn’t know exactly what I was forgiving) and made the choice to take a chance by attending Mass with my family at a new parish. (When I really needed to have better boundaries and remove my family from the presence of those who had done serious harm.)

But there ended up being other things over the years as the children grew up participating in Church.
Issues like betrayal, bullying, lies, infidelity, racism, homosexuality issues, suicide, and blatant indifference that led my children (some as minors), and other kids, out of the church.

The indifference was the worst of it all, I believe, because the opposite of love is indifference.

 

[stpurl]

No, it is YOUR understanding which is wrong. I’m sorry that you still don’t wish to accept that. I stand with Christ and His Church, I don’t demand that He bend to MY decisions. The Pope can do what he has authority to do. And he has no authority to ordain women, past, present, or future. This is from GOD, not from men.

I am sorry for what you and your children endured, but I fail to see how that can be laid on Christ, right? And the Church IS Christ. All those Christians who did wrong are still the image of Christ, just like you and your children. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.’ That isn’t a suggestion, it’s a requirement from our Father. We have all sinned, but if we want forgiveness for ourselves we have to be ready to grant it to others, even those who have deeply hurt us and those we care for. Is it easy? NO. It is so hard to do that without God it’s impossible.

And it isn’t something that we can ‘do’ one day and it’s over and done. It’s something you have to do every day of your life.

But if you keep on holding to your anger, as justifiable as the feelings may be, you’re going to find yourself wandering farther and farther from God. People who do this put their own judgments and feelings onto God, so that they can justify themselves, or demand that “The Church” change and act in the way they ‘feel’ is ‘real righteousness’, or they get so angry they discard God entirely.

It’s only when people paradoxically become ‘weak’ enough to let go of the anger and ‘weak’ enough not to demand their own ‘justice’ against those who have wronged them by giving all to God instead that they become strong with God’s strength.

 

[catholic03]

I should not have said what I did about people leaving the Church. That was wrong of me, and I am sorry.

I still know that women cannot be priests.

 

[MamaJewel]

No, it is YOUR understanding which is wrong. I’m sorry that you still don’t wish to accept that. I stand with Christ and His Church, I don’t demand that He bend to MY decisions.

Christ bends His Authority to the pope’s earthly decisions on Church.

I stand with Christ, who gave authority to rule the Church and the keys of the kingdom to Peter, the first pope. The pope has the God given authority to bind and loose, straight from Christ Himself. The pope is the ultimate decision maker when leading the Bride of Christ (Church).

but I fail to see how that can be laid on Christ, right?

Christ didn’t do anything to anybody and is blameless.

I am sorry for what you and your children endured

They were innocent children and deserved so much better than they got.
And because of their experiences, future generations will have no clue about God. They still see the Church as business as usual.

But if you keep on holding to your anger, as justifiable as the feelings may be, you’re going to find yourself wandering farther and farther from God.

It’s not about anger. It’s about current actions that say nothing has changed.
It’s about the wicked choices made/ being made in the name of God by people who worship Christ/God. It’s the same sickness that has been around for ages. No change = nones.

I put up with the “you can’t be angry” beat down in the name of God so many times that I’m lucky to be alive.

It’s only when people paradoxically become ‘weak’ enough to let go of the anger and ‘weak’ enough not to demand their own ‘justice’ against those who have wronged them by giving all to God instead that they become strong with God’s strength.

Anger can be very righteous and very necessary.
Children and youth and the disabled and and down-trodden are already weak.
They don’t need to be told to get over their anger and just “forgive” when their anger is righteous and justified.

At least I will be able too look Christ in the eyes and tell him that I tolerated too much but did eventually overcome using “understanding” as a defense mechanism.
Believe it or not, forgiveness has been easy for me. It was much easier to avoid anger because we all make mistakes, including me… hey, it’s all good.
But it isn’t all good. And it wasn’t all good.
I vow to use this new found anger so the future can be good.

I should not have said what I did about people leaving the Church. That was wrong of me, and I am sorry.
I still know that women cannot be priests.

Apology very graciously and very gratefully accepted. I am so relieved you don’t feel like peeps should leave (the Church) because you don’t seem like someone who believes souls should be jeopardized toward damnation.

As far as women priests, it’s fine with me if that was what you were taught.
Respect. :bowing_woman:

 

[catholic03]

Thank you.

 

[MamaJewel]

Thank you.

You’re welcome.

 

[Maximian]

As long as they are within the Church’s “sphere”, there is still hope that they can be corrected and grow in holiness. The “let’s give up on these people” seems to me an insult against the Holy Spirit.

There is however the risk that they spread their ideas and endanger other people’s souls. St Paul, in his letter to Titus, advises against associating with such people:

“A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:

Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.“

 

[twf]

The contemporary Church has been very slow to formally discipline dissidents. Very slow. So if the bishops (or Rome if the issue is a bishop) won’t censor someone, I am hesitant, as a mere layman, to do so.

 

[stpurl]

Yes the Pope is the Vicar. But the pope proclaims the gospel; he doesn’t invent it, he doesn’t change its meaning. He is a steward which means he has a treasure to guard over, not a carte blanche to take the treasure and toss some of it, or combine it into something that wasn’t there before.

Tell me, can God make a rock too big for Him to lift? He can do ANYTHING right? No, wait, God can do anything that ‘is’. God cannot do something that is ‘not’. He cannot create a square circle, or make Himself into a quartet instead of a Trinity.

Equally, the Pope as God’s steward and vicar cannot ‘bind’ something which God has loosened, or ‘loosen’ something which God has already bound. The Pope cannot change the Eucharist into pizza and beer, or milk and cookies. He cannot change spouses in a marriage into ‘two men’ or ‘two women’. And he cannot ‘take’ authority which God does not give him. Remember, God’s own authority does not extend into God being ‘able’ to change God’s own teachings. Scripture tells us that God’s very nature is unchanging.

 

[ThomasMT]

This thread seems to have devolved into a bit of back 'n forth bickering. I’m sorry that you have been hurt and have had bad experiences within the Church. Lashing out with false precedents, regarding the early roles of women in the Church will not help you heal.

Regarding…

… so I wonder what the real truth of the situation was for Christian women in leadership roles in the early Church.

May women be ordained as Permanent Deacons? If the answer is “no,” why not? - Catholic Straight Answers

The Sacrament of Holy Orders comprises three degrees: the episcopacy (bishops), the presbyterate (priests), and the diaconate (deacons). The first two degrees– the episcopacy and the presbyterate– participate in the Priesthood of Jesus Christ, and thereby the term sacerdos.denotes only … Continued

catholicstraightanswers.com

Ironically, the stomping of feet in pursuit of modernistic desires serves to diminish the prominent and instrumental roles that women have and continue to play in the Church. As if they are somehow lacking, since they cannot serve priestly function.

As someone already pointed out…

And of course the most important member of the Church is a woman… our Blessed Mother… whose glory is greater than that of every priest who ever lived combined.

With Peace and Respect,

• T