Catholicism (Authority, Succession, and Baptism)

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Apostlic Authority died with the Apostles. Do you believe in speaking in tongues today?
No and yes.

The Bible teaches that the early Church sought to preserve, protect and proclaim the Good News with which it had been entrusted by means of a visible, hierarchical Church structure.

Beginning with Peter and the other original Apostles, the Catholic Church has maintained an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession in a real, tangible sense to this very day. The Protestant Church has rebelled and rejected the Apostolic Succession and Authority of the Catholic Church, and the Protestant view of a “spiritual, invisible” Church is an unbiblical interpretation of scripture required by this rebellion against the true Church of Christ.

A Visible, Hierarchical Church

“And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.” (2 Timothy 2:2)The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the verse above. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after their deaths, Paul instructed Timothy to choose reliable men who could be entrusted with the gospel.

In this passage, we see four generations of believer represented: 1) Paul, 2) Timothy, 3) men to whom Timothy would pass along the Gospel message, and 4) those that Timothy’s students would teach. Paul does not say something to the effect that “all believers everywhere would be direct descendants of the Apostles”; he specifically charges Timothy with choosing men who would be qualified. By implication then, Timothy was to avoid those men who might have heard the gospel but would not be suited to the task of faithfully preserving, protecting and proclaiming the teachings of Christ.

Clearly, the Bible indicates that the Word of God was to be passed on from one faithful steward to the next and that not all would be worthy of that role. These were not members of an “invisible Church” as Luther claimed. They were real men of flesh and blood – not a “spiritual” superset of all believers.

Paul also outlined the beginnings of Church hierarchy (as well as the qualification for Church office) in his first letter to Timothy.
“Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

“Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.” (1 Timothy 3:1-10)

These verses illustrate that by the time this letter was written in the late first century, the Church had already established several positions of leadership: Apostles (Peter being the foremost among them), Overseers (or Bishops) and Deacons. This is the genesis of the hierarchy seen in the Catholic Church today.
 
How do we know which is the right church? We have all we need in Acts and in the letters of the Apostles to the different congregations. Jesus also gives us the lessons for our lives in general, but the way the church is to be organized and conducted is in Acts and the Apostles letters.
 
Apperently, you don’t know about the church. In every church the apostles appointed elders over the congregation. They left us the guide lines by which we are to elect these men. They also left us the guide lines for appointing decons.
Ah, so the church is not simply an invisiblie “spiritual” church made up of all who profess Christ no matter where they are throughout the world.

The church is a visible entity with a real leadership. Yes?

With Bishops, Priests and Deacons who have been validly ordained by the laying on of hands just as the Bible says?
 
Apperently, you don’t know about the church. In every church the apostles appointed elders over the congregation. They left us the guide lines by which we are to elect these men. They also left us the guide lines for appointing decons.
And apparently this stopped after the apostles died. Why would Jesus allow this to happen?
 
How do we know which is the right church? We have all we need in Acts and in the letters of the Apostles to the different congregations. Jesus also gives us the lessons for our lives in general, but the way the church is to be organized and conducted is in Acts and the Apostles letters.
Every christian, no matter what denomination except for a select few, believes in this. So why not just clump all those denominations into one?
 
Yes, but I still fail to see the office of Pope. Also, Paul tells Timothy to find men suitable to pass on the teachings. After the deaths of the apostles, there would be no further revelations. The Apostlic Authority died with them. Timothy wasn’t an Apostle. He was an apprentice of Paul. Why else would Paul have given these guidelines. Because Timothy and everyone else after needed to know once there was no authority to call on.
 
Because every denomination out there, including Catholicism, is wrong. I don’t claim a denomination. I claim to know Christ and Him crusified. I can read on my own and understand on my own. I have been to many churches of many denominations and though some come close, none match up yet.
 
I really hate it when people say things and never back them up. Sooner says the Church fell away after the apostles. Proof? When did it happen? Would Jesus really abandon the Church for nearly 1500 years? Biblical basis for this? The Bible was never lost, because it was never together in it’s full form until the Council of Nicea and Hippo. here and here for evidence for the Catholic argument.
 
Has Jesus abandoned us? Has He left us to fend for ourselves? Since you hold your opinion above others, I think that makes you your own Pope, your own church. Let’s just hope your house is built of rock, and not of sand. here is a list of scripture that points to speaking in tongues. Please read with an open heart.
 
lol, I can’t be my own Pope. I don’t even believe in the Pope. And yes, I assure you, Jesus is a very firm rock to place my faith in. And once again you weren’t listening. I said most of the bible, not the New Testament was lost. Yes the 27 books of the New Testament were in circulation.
 
I’ve read almost all of these and I know where you went wrong. In your understanding of the scriptures. Lets look at 1 Cor. 13-14. What is Paul trying to say here?
 
I’ve read almost all of these and I know where you went wrong. In your understanding of the scriptures. Lets look at 1 Cor. 13-14. What is Paul trying to say here?
In chapter 13, Paul tells us that whatever we do, whatever we say, we must have Love. What is Love? Love is God. How do we Love? Mark 12:28-34 explains how we love others. It is an action, and one of the reasons why we believe in faith and good works, but that’s off the topic. Paul then explains that Love is required in order to speak in tongues as in chapter 14. However, how can this be integrated in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, where Paul explains that not everyone will have the same gifts of the Holy Spirit. He scolds the Corintians for having an “unhealthy” interest in speaking in tongues rather than having equal interest in the other gifts, such as prophecy. So how can chapter 12 go along with the next two chapters?
 
I’ve read almost all of these and I know where you went wrong. In your understanding of the scriptures. Lets look at 1 Cor. 13-14. What is Paul trying to say here?
How do you know if someones understanding of scripture is wrong?
 
Paul is showing how all the gifts they were given pale in comparison to the gift of love. In chapter 14, Paul says that when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. Love is perfection. He is trying to tell them they need to grow up. The word perfection comes from the Greek, Hyperbole. Which means, finished or mature. The word imperfect, comes from the Greek, mero. Which means part or portion. Paul is urging the Corinthians to grow up in their understanding of gifts, because once the Apostles die and all who have the gift, they are going to need to rely on something greater, but more difficult. Love.
 
How do we know if someone has love? They could be feigning it for a selfish act.
 
Think about it. If when he says," Where there is prophesy, they wiil cease and where there are tongues they will be stilled." he means after Jesus returns, then we’ll be in heaven or hell. Why would we need faith, hope and love. These things won’t exsist in hell and we wouldn’t need them in Heaven. Faith is the hope of things unseen. The only thing we’re waiting on is Jesus and getting to Heaven. If they cease after he returns and all that remains is faith, hope and love, that just doesn’t make sense.
 
Think about it. If when he says," Where there is prophesy, they wiil cease and where there are tongues they will be stilled." he means after Jesus returns, then we’ll be in heaven or hell. Why would we need faith, hope and love. These things won’t exsist in hell and we wouldn’t need them in Heaven. Faith is the hope of things unseen. The only thing we’re waiting on is Jesus and getting to Heaven. If they cease after he returns and all that remains is faith, hope and love, that just doesn’t make sense.
Actually, what you just said doesn’t make sense. As I said earlier, God is Love. You’re saying we don’t need love, therefore we don’t need God? The Holy Spirit is the love projected from the Belover (God) to the Beloved (Jesus). If the Holy Spirit exists in Heaven and He has the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Love, you are also saying that the Holy Spirit doesn’t live in Heaven. That leads to a breakdown in the Trinity. God and Jesus exist in Heaven, but not the Holy Spirit, even though they are 3 persons in one Being. Before you hit submit, hit preview.
 
If I said we don’t need love, I didn’t mean to. I meant after the prophesies cease and the tongues are stilled, all that remains is faith, hope and love.
 
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