Catholicism (Authority, Succession, and Baptism)

[SoonerServant]

Don’t be foolish. The dicsiples continually thought that the kingdom Jesus was talking about was a physical one. But Jesus said it would not be one of stones. The church is spirit.

 

[SoonerServant]

The church is not built from literal stones, but from living stone. ppl.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The church is spirit.

So, you’ve made your choice.

The second option is that Jesus established one, invisible, abstract, “spiritual” church made up of all true believers, regardless of which denomination they may attend on Sunday. In this view, the building where they gather and the gathering itself is not the church nor is the denomination to which they belong the church. The individual believer who has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior is considered to be a member of this “invisible” church, but the gathering of believers that come together for worship and fellowship is itself not the church. The church is bigger than the denomination, and this idea explains why it does not really matter why you can move from church to church each Sunday or change churches every few years when you don’t like the music ministry at the church you’re currently attending.

This is a very common view among non-Catholics, but is it true? Did Jesus establish a church that is only “spiritual” in nature, an abstract invisible church? The answer very plainly is, “No!”
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. (John 17:20-24)

Jesus prayed for unity – the unity that He shares with the Father and the Spirit – so that the world may know that the Father sent Jesus into the world. This must be a unity that the world can see. How could the world know with certainty that Jesus was sent, if they cannot see an “invisible” church? Can the world look at the state of Christianity today and see one, church? Do they say, “Yep, those Christians are certainly unified, that is plain to see. By looking at them, we can believe that Jesus was sent by God”? Not at all! The world cannot see any “invisible” unity because what it sees is 25,000+ denominations bickering and fighting. In order for the world to know the truth, it must be able to see a visible church.

Was Jesus just praying for unity among his Apostles? No, he prayed “also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one” as we saw above. Jesus is saying the unity of a single, visible church is proof that He really was sent into the world by the Father. The unity of the church is supposed to be a witness to this fact. Is this the only place where the church is specified as “visible”? No!
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.” (Matthew 5:14)

Jesus is not talking about an invisible, “spiritual” church; he says the church cannot be hidden. He also says:
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17)
“Tell the church”? Which church? Where does one go to “tell it to the church” if it is merely a “spiritual” church? And how does one find it if it is invisible.

Further, what happens when there is a disagreement that requires a decision from the church as shown in the passage above. Let’s say that a wife becomes pregnant but does not want any more children; she wants to have an abortion. The husband goes to the Catholic Church which teaches that abortion is absolutely wrong. But the wife chooses a church that teaches that abortion is a matter of personal choice.

How can this matter be resolved since the “invisible” church – which is bigger than any one denomination – does not have doctrinal unity? How decided what is and is not true concerning the Christian faith? How decides what is and is not good doctrine? What is and is not moral? Who decides what is right and wrong? Who speaks for the church in these matters? Or what happens when everyone claims to speak for the church? This latter issue is actually what is occurring within Christianity today. Each pastor of every congregation is acting essentially as if he is the shepherd of his own flock. There are thousands upon thousands of pastors deciding upon the basis of their own individual understanding of scripture as to what is and is not good for their flocks.

 

[SoonerServant]

Catholics are doing exactly what Isael did when they wanted a king. A spirit wasn’t good enough. They wanted someone of flesh to guide them. Catholics have instituded the pope.

 

[SoonerServant]

This is ludacris, You’re making assumptions about me which aren’t even true.

 

[RNRobert]

Jesus didn’t give him literal keys. That wouldn’t have been left out. It would have continued with," …,then He handed Peter the keys." Belief, confession, repentence and baptism is the “key” to heaven.

Literal keys!? Jesus Kingdom is a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM (“my kingdom is not of this world”), therefore Jesus handed him SPIRITUAL KEYS. Jesus gave the keys to Peter, and Peter alone. Also, gave binding and loosing powers to the Apostles as well, but not to all believers.

We see in the Bible that when God has a special purpose for someone he often changes their name. Thus Abram and Sarai become Abraham and Sarah, Jacob becomes Israel, and Saul becomes Paul. Jesus changing Simon’s name to Peter makes no sense if he was only talking about Peter’s faith. Peter’s being given the keys was the *reward *for his faith.

 

[YADA]

So this is where moral relatavism comes from?

If I hold the keys to heaven by a profession of faith in Jesus the Messiah [Christ] then I am also able to bind and loose. Murder [character assassination, abortion, etc], adultery, fornication and pornography are okay. I can be held to no standard but my own…nor do I risk loosing my salvation by any action on my part.

You bend the scripture passage to meet your pre-concieved theology, negating the balance of scripture that fails to support your position.

Jesus prayed that his followers remain one [united] in faith. St. Paul’s letters deal with abuses in worship and in how to conduct oneself in a faithful Christian life and this less than 20 years after Christ walked the earth and in a time when the original apostles still lived. St. Paul rebuked the people telling them to adhere to the teachings of their religious leaders even when those same leaders failed to practice what they preached.

However you feel that it is appropriate to determine our own coarse to follow some 2000 years later. Well, failing to follow the apostolic Church has not left a cohesive Christian community. Protestantism is varied in its core beliefs and practices, it is not universal [catholic] nor is it one.

The best eveidence outside of Scripture [which does not support your claim] is the fruit of what the Protestsnt Reformation reaped from the seeds sown by Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.

 

[RNRobert]

Catholics are doing exactly what Isael did when they wanted a king. A spirit wasn’t good enough. They wanted someone of flesh to guide them. Catholics have instituded the pope.

Wrong. Jesus is our King (I presume he’s yours too). The Pope is NOT our King. He is Jesus’s Prime Minister.

 

[SoonerServant]

I never said it was spiritual. I said it was made of living stones. ppl. If you’ll notice there wasn’t ever a leader of all the churches in the first century. The apostles, plural, went from country to country establishing churches. And from time to time they would revisit them or write them letters to correct and edify. “The church” refers to the congregation of PEOPLE in the country and city, who comprise the church. It says take one or two, then it says to tell the church. it simply means tell the rest of the congregation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Catholics are doing exactly what Isael did when they wanted a king. A spirit wasn’t good enough. They wanted someone of flesh to guide them. Catholics have instituded the pope.

The Church is built by Christ, not by man. How did Jesus set things up?

The inerrant Word of God tells us that the Church’s authority is unique in that it is derived from the authority of the Apostles themselves. Apostolic Authority flows from the Authority of Jesus and the Father.
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-19)

“Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ “ (John 20:21)
From this, we can see that God the Father has given all authority to God the Son who in turn bestows this authority upon His own disciples and sends them out to preach the truth to all the world. Thus, we can see that the Apostolic Authority of the Church is God-given. But how closely should the Church be identified with Christ? Jesus Himself specified how we should receive those sent by Christ:
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)

Therefore, when Catholics listen to their Bishops they are hearing the voice of their shepherd, Jesus Christ, who speaks to His Church by means of his Apostles.

 

[RNRobert]

I never said it was spiritual. I said it was made of living stones. ppl. If you’ll notice there wasn’t ever a leader of all the churches in the first century. The apostles, plural, went from country to country establishing churches. And from time to time they would revisit them or write them letters to correct and edify.“The church” refers to the congregation of PEOPLE in the country and city, who comprise the church. It says take one or two, then it says to tell the church. it simply means tell the rest of the congregation.

When there was a dispute about Gentile Christians having to follow the Mosaic Law, a council was called It did not consist of ALL believers, but of the leaders of the church.

 

[SoonerServant]

Of course Peter had a special purpose. Jesus predestined him to be the first one to show his belief in him by confessing his faith. He was also the first to preach a sermon on the day of pentacost. He was also the first to preach to the Jews. He was the first to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. Yes, God had a special purpose for Peter, but no where did it say he was to be our primeminister.

 

[YADA]

The Apostles had a leader, it was Peter. He is named more times than any other, his name is listed first when the are listed. Jesus gives all the other apostles the power to bind and loose before entacost. It is to Peter, that this power is given first along with the keys which are not given to the other apostles.

And it does not say that all ‘believers are given the keys’ as you are trying to force upon the passage. That is a decree you, ‘Pope SoonerServant’ have interpreted the passage to mean.

You do not address the scriptural passages that refer to St Paul traveling to Jerusalem to meet with Peter. You do not address Peter being singled out to ‘feed the sheep’ nor the passage where the other apostles were given the authority to bind and loose. If they had already received this power by their faith [which they had because like Peter they stayed when others left] and did not contradict Peter at his confession; why would they not have the power already?

You do not address why the Church needed to be instructed in the “Breaking of Bread” by Paul, coulld they not decide for themsellves their conduct? No, Paul tells them there is a certain way they are to conduct this Eucharistic service, they are to do it in accordance with how they are instructed. They are to holld fast to these Traditions whether it was handed on by word or letter.

 

[SoonerServant]

No, you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. No other apostle had done this yet. The binding and losing refers to the apostles ability to present the gospel to ppl or to not. As in Acts 13:46. They presented it, but the ppl rejected it, so they rebuked them and went on their way.

 

[SoonerServant]

And about the breaking of the bread. The correct way was give. Right then and there. Paul told them how. That is our letter. All that needed to be said, was said. We don’t need a pope to tell us any more.

 

[SoonerServant]

And by the way, being the first ones to be given the authority to establish the churches, is a HUGE resposibility. Who ever said it was Peter’s authority alone was mistaken.

 

[SoonerServant]

If Peter was such a leader, then why did Paul have to correct him in Gal. 2:11-21. Does the Pope show discremination? Can he be wrong in his conduct? If so, who is to correct him?

 

[SoonerServant]

In this case, God didn’t correct him. It was another apostle. Should we have another Pope? Perhaps we should have twelve popes?

 

[dbacks5439]

What if that person’s faith is wavering? Unfounded? Perhaps that person has a different faith than another and both claim to be Christians. Whose faith is built upon?

 

[SoonerServant]

If even an apostle of God could act out of line, then how can you know that the Pope hasn’t been having hookers over every night. It’s unsafe and irresponsible and foolish to put one man as the representative of everyone. If he’s ever caught in a scandle, which I’m sure your bishops will do a great job covering, then the reputation of the entire Catholic denomination will be ruined.