Catholicism---Man Made---Not in the bible

[cmforte]

Yes…as I said…the Church interpreted the words in the bible and then figured out many of the rules, etc. So the OP won’t find, for example, a specific line from the books in the canon that quotes Jesus as saying “women cannot be priests” or “gay people should not get married”…it is non-private interpretation by the church that made these rules a reality in the church.
Yes?

And what “Bible” was the Church members and leaders interpreting at the Council of Jerusalem?

-Chris

 

[Rence]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible. I asked her like what??? I told her that we also go by tradition. I am dumbfounded as she went through 12 yrs of Catholic school and 2 yrs of bible study goes to Mass most Sunday’s. The phone conversation was mind boggling. To my mind she thinks/believes like a protestant. She said she loves Catholicism and I replied that she only loves the parts she agrees with. I know I shouldn’t have said that but-----if it walks like a duck kind of thing.

The thing is, I can understand her viewpoint when I think about it. If one doesn’t have faith in the Church, then it does look like manmade rules. I mean, when one questions a teaching, the answer is that God somehow told them in some way or another or enlightened them, through the Holy Spirit. Well, to someone who doesn’t trust or believe in the Church, it looks exactly like, “because God told him (the Pope)”, which translates to, “he made it up”.

If you look at the Bible you’ll notice that the Church and many of it’s rules were already established before the Church actually put together the New Testament, and remember they picked and chose what would go in the Bible and what would not go into the Bible. so it’s understandible for people to think that the Church put together the Bible in order to reinforce rules that they wanted to enforce on the faithful.

And one could say, then why do they believe in the Bible, well that’s simple: because it’s all they have of the Word of God, that’s why. And something is better than nothing. Also, remember than one can read a line or two out of the Bible and believe it means something a bit different than what the Church says it means, or even link one or two sentences with a few paragraphs or rules out of the Catechism.

This whole conversation of the church having man made rules started because she told me that she wants to be cremated and then have her ashes split up amongst her children and spread wherever. I explained that the ashes I believe are suppose to be buried in consecrated ground—well, that set the whole thing off.

There was a time when people thought that the Church didn’t allow cremation. Now I don’t know if there was ever a time when the Church taught that, or if it was uninformed Catholics who decided that’s what the Church taught. But I do know that cremation is allowed now. I was taught by my family that one had to be buried in a Catholic cemetery, but I really don’t know if that’s true or not. I can’t imagine it would matter since the whole world is God’s playground but I figure, I’ll find out exactly what the teaching is someday… I think the Church teaches that they have to all remain together (rather than scattered) though. I’m sure that to many people, it really doesn’t make a difference. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. We go back into the ground anyway…

So she believes the church made up their own rules because she said no where in the bible does it say we can’t use birth control or that ashes are to be buried in consecrated ground?

A lot of people think that Odan commited the sin of contraception by ‘spilling his seed’. However, I was always taught in my years in Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school and Catholic college and even Catholic university, that the sin of Odan was disobedience to God, not the actual spilling his seed…so I can understand the confusion.

As to being buried in consecrated ground, I don’t remember it being in the Bible either… I dunno about that one.

Then she said that my sister and she are going to the Lutheran Church tomorrow for a change. I said that it is a sin for a Catholic to receive in another church and then that set off that she doesn’t believe in that either. ~~~~~ sigh ~~~~~~.

You can go to another service, as long as you don’t replace your obligation to attend Mass as a replacement.

So, she added that to her other questions:
Where does it say we can’t use birth control

It doesn’t. That’s why people think it was a madmade rule. Jesus never talked about birth control. Even if the sin of odan was ‘spilling his seed’ instead of disobedience to God (which is what I was taught), one was not obligated to follow Jewish laws after Christ established His Church. Just like we are not obligated to circumsize our boys, we
are not obligated to any of the other laws except the 10 commandments.

Where does it say we have to be buried in consecrated ground.

I don’t know about that one…

Where does it say we can’t receive communion in another church.

It doesn’t. We can go to another church. But we still have to attend Mass.

Where does it say anything about the Popes infallibility concerning church beliefs and morals.

There are a few verses that the Church points to regarding infallibility, but unbelievers do not think it supports infallibility. There are some that say that it only applied to Peter, and still others who believed that the passages not only applied to only Peter but in addition that it didn’t translate to being ‘infallibility’, and there are others that believe that the Church became corrupt along the way in leadership (and of course that points back to the passages being thought of as only applying to Peter). And of course, there are the Eastern Orthodox who don’t view the same exact passages the same way.

What it boils down to is trust in the Church. If one doesn’t trust the Church to know what they’re talking about in these matters, then they seem to be made up rules and laws. You either believe in the Church, or you don’t. And that’s not to say they might not come to understand in time, because they can. But it may be difficult to argue with someone who just doesn’t get it. It just may not click yet.

 

[po18guy]

Yes…as I said…the Church interpreted the words in the bible and then figured out many of the rules, etc. So the OP won’t find, for example, a specific line from the books in the canon that quotes Jesus as saying “women cannot be priests” or “gay people should not get married”…it is non-private interpretation by the church that made these rules a reality in the church.
Yes?

As long as the influence of the Holy Spirit is not discounted.

 

[livingwordunity]

Livingwordunity:

Yes, I have asked her if she actually researched Church history and if she realizes that Peter was the first Pope and we have apostolic succession and can actually trace ourselves back to Peter—she just makes a snoring sound.

Ask her if she believes that Christ Jesus is God. Because it would not make sense for her to believe this and at the same time believe that God made a mistake or breaks his promises such as the promises he made to the Church and the authority he gave to her, especially to Peter whom Christ put in charge of until his return. But from the way you describe her, she sounds very immature and like she may not want to hear truth. If that’s the case then talking to her would be the same as talking to a wall, and all you can do is pray for her.

 

[MrCritic52]

Actually, the bible copies stories from other religious myths, in order to reinforce the astrological nature of order in the heavens. This is why Christ shares the same birthday and similar stories as Horus, Mithras, and Osiris, to name but a few. One should ask, why does Christ share the same birthday as the winter solstice? If he were truly unique, there should be another date. Why wasn’t his birth recorded in the same way his words were? The fact remains, he is the sun, literally. This is why the sun is always highlighted behind his head in paintings/icons. It’s so obvious. The 3 kings are the 3 stars in orion’s belt. Jesus is also associated with the fish because it is the age of Pisces, an obvious astrological connection.
Lastly, why does Easter Sunday always have to be changed to suit the moon’s position? The answer lies not in the Jewish passover, but in the heavens, what all religions are rooted in. After half my life spent as a Catholic, I finally wake from my slumber. I suggest readers might watch Terry Jones’, The Barbarians for a new and truthful revelation of history.

 

[Akini]

What do we mean by “Not in the Bible”. Please don’t forget that the Bible is the child of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church comes first, the Bible is the product of the Catholic Church. As for man made, read Matthew 16:19. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”. If the Catholic Church decides what is good for mankind, God in heaven approves that. In other words, God puts a stamp on the decision. If it’s man-made, so be it. After all, that is what Peter was told by the Founder of the Catholic Church, Jesus Christ himself.

Akini

 

[bmonk]

She also explained to me that she is sure she is going to heaven because she is a good person. I changed that subject before she had time to add because “she is saved”.

Don’t have time to read the whole thread, for which I apologize–but this got me.

Being a “good person” is not enough to get to heaven, nor is being “saved”. Again and again the Gospel shows “good persons” who don’t make it–like the Pharisee praying in the Temple what a good person he is, even if it’s a parable (Lk 18:9-14). Or Paul’s speaking of judging himself in 1 Cor 4. He, rather, strives to “work out his salvation with fear and trembling” as we also are to do (Phil 2:18).

As for being saved as sufficient, in the New Testament, those who turn to God always ask for baptism–it’s the next logical step: if you are God’s child, you should be in God’s family, and on Earth, that means the Church. To me it makes utter sense: why be alone and working it all out for yourself when you should be using all the means that God has given us in Christ, through the community he established? Why not avail yourself of the living Bread, his own flesh (John 6, esp. versed 51-58)?

 

[Flascha]

Hello
In my opinion: the Bible is also the one of the most unique/researched/interpreted historical written theological “God/Holy spirit” inspired yet man-record codifying spiritual evolution over millenniums of mankind.

What it really means: “God knows!”

Stephan

P.S. Being German and living in the US plus having had 7 years of Latin after 57 years of living reading the versus in German/English/Latin… I sense the difference between the lines…almost as God is personal speaking to eachperson on his level… catholicism tries to clarify theologically what it means… is/has been Catholicism infallible? For me: No. but laude the effort… and maturity evolving by 2000 years of experience .

I do believe only one person is infallible… and that is God.

 

[horselvr]

So, you do not believe the Pope is infallible?

Can you please explain to me your understanding of the infallibility of the Pope and why, even as a Catholic you reject this.
Thanks

 

[po18guy]

Hello
In my opinion: the Bible is also the one of the most unique/researched/interpreted historical written theological “God/Holy spirit” inspired yet man-record codifying spiritual evolution over millenniums of mankind.

What it really means: “God knows!”

Stephan

P.S. Being German and living in the US plus having had 7 years of Latin after 57 years of living reading the versus in German/English/Latin… I sense the difference between the lines…almost as God is personal speaking to eachperson on his level… catholicism tries to clarify theologically what it means… is/has been Catholicism infallible? For me: No. but laude the effort… and maturity evolving by 2000 years of experience .

I do believe only one person is infallible… and that is God.

Clearly, since your opinion of Catholicism is not infallible, it might be worth considering taking another look in greater depth. I highly recommend it.

 

[BrunoMaria]

The Bible is NOT man-made. Nor is the Catholic Church man-made.
All other churches are man-made, as Jesus Christ founded but one Church - on St. Peter and his successors. Those churches who split off, are the result of misled new leaders, who think Jesus’ Church is wrong and they know better. They NEVER do! Even then, when at times the Church was influenced by impure spirits. To use historic mistakes as excuse for anti-Church allegations, is neither fair nor right and neglects the Holy Spirit’s efforts to lead his Church bach on the right way - Jesus’ way!

All - absolutely all the Church teaches, originates in God’s word. So do the Church-laws and rules. Nothing of it is randomly or accidentally established or become effective out of a mood of Church-leaders; but clearly com into force out of the Church’s deeper insight of God’s will. The Church is as she understands herself ECCLESIA SEMPER REFORMANDA - herself continuously self-perpetuating - renewing.

Nothing in the Catholic Bible with the Holy See’s imprimatur, is man-made or man’s imagination. Since like homosexuality and others are clearly stated in the Bible, repeatedly from Exodus to Romans 1,26 - this as all other laws are as old and as new as mankind is. And let’s not claim Moses is “old fashioned Old Covenant”. No; Moses is as currant and topical as Jesus Christ Himself! See Moses and Elijah when they spoke to Jesus at Jesus’ transfiguration (Luke 9,30), and the Law was given by Moses ( John 1,17) enriched with Jesus’ God’s grace and truth.

Infallibility of the Pope for one thing, is as clear and as natural as can be. It never touches the Pope’s private opinions and views, but exclusively truths that result out of our (Church’s) deeper insight of God’s will, which again is stated in the Bible, which for her part, clearly resulted of the Holy Spirit’s influence and inspiration. So; in case of a new dogma, the Pope will for a long time before it’s announced, discuss and counsel with all Cardinals and Bishops, until the final AND OBVIOUS truth of the new dogma is found. So, this new dogma (as all dogmas) are neither man-made, but the will, advice and revelation of God - to which the Bible is absolutely conform as it’s NOT MAN-MADE. In fact the Bible contained this divine truth already - stated in the Bible ever since it was written by the Spirits influence. If only we had read it more open hearted and in togetherness with God. A togetherness Jesus Christ offered to us - but we must ask for it.

Absolutely all of what’s questioned by us, is of course stated in the Bible! And the Bible is not “a child of the Catholic Church” - it’s God’s word – and the Church is “a Child of the Bible” as the Bible is God’s word and will; administered by the Church in the authority and warrant of Jesus Christ, who inaugurated St. Peter and his successors to maintain His word unchanged and original. Nothing - absolutely NOTHING of the Bible is man-made! All of it is inspired by the Holy Spirit with countless relevations in every single phrase - waiting to be discovered by those who are allowed to understand. (Match Ez 21,5 or Mt 13,10-13,34)

The rest of sins, rules and regulations arise naturally of Jesus’ most important law: “Love each other as I loved you” in John 13,34 and others - underlined in 1John 2,8. If we stick to that law, no sin is even possible. Abortion for instance, is murder out of hate against the newborn child. All sins are violations against God’s but two laws of love. Love to God and Love to our Next. All of the Church’s laws, are Jesus’ laws, and result out of love. Jesus, who had been long before Abraham Joh 8,58. So, it’s even love to burry the ashes of a beloved (as mentioned in this thread), in blessed ground and not just anywhere.

Yours
Bruno

 

[Farsight001]

Actually, the bible copies stories from other religious myths, in order to reinforce the astrological nature of order in the heavens. This is why Christ shares the same birthday and similar stories as Horus, Mithras, and Osiris, to name but a few. One should ask, why does Christ share the same birthday as the winter solstice? If he were truly unique, there should be another date. Why wasn’t his birth recorded in the same way his words were? The fact remains, he is the sun, literally. This is why the sun is always highlighted behind his head in paintings/icons. It’s so obvious. The 3 kings are the 3 stars in orion’s belt. Jesus is also associated with the fish because it is the age of Pisces, an obvious astrological connection.
Lastly, why does Easter Sunday always have to be changed to suit the moon’s position? The answer lies not in the Jewish passover, but in the heavens, what all religions are rooted in. After half my life spent as a Catholic, I finally wake from my slumber. I suggest readers might watch Terry Jones’, The Barbarians for a new and truthful revelation of history.

Except he doesn’t share similarities to Horus, Mithras, or Osiris. That’s a ridiculous myth that I was hoping had died out by now. Apparently not.

 

[donship]

LB_in_TX… you gave an awesome answer, one I will use to help me with my own son.

He is 29 years of age (going on 18 IMHO), leaving the Catholic church, or any church or religion for that matter, as he has been brainwashed by his future wife (06/2013 wedding) and I dread going, frankly, as it will not be done in a church and therefore not under God and futhermore he will not be fulfilling a sacrement that my wife and I hold dear to our hearts. :crying:

My personal position has been to give my son small doses of information, i.e.; why being with the Holy Trinity is an easier path, how God has shown me the right and wrong ways of my life, why it is so important to marry in the CC, and many others incl. scripture.

I also do not try to get into any arguments with him, as I do not see it possible to convince anyone to do anything when they do not want to, especially if the message is deliver with anger or angst.

I spoke with my priest and the deacon at my church and they basically said the same… give it time. As he grows older he will realize what he will surely miss. Additionally, God never stops trying to bring His llove to all of us, so why should I not trust Him.

This has taken six (6) months for me to get my head around, but it sure does seem to be working and I am much a happier Dad.

You have given all of us food for thought and help in our present day (maybe future too) troubles with the people we love. :thankyou:

BTW, he now lives in TX due to his work and we are in MA, which makes a difficult situation that much harder.

May the good Lord Bless you, and Yours.

Don

 

[bmonk]

She is so sure that I would never find any verses on contraception/birth control but there seems to be 28 or so.

She told me that when she dies she will have her ashes split amongst her children and when I said as a Catholic you aren’t suppose to do that she then said—you guessed it----Where is THAT in the bible. OHY!

Well, it may not be in the Bible directly, but Jesus established the Church as the guide to salvation–and to decide for ourselves what is true and how we want to accept it is to ignore what Jesus gave us and try to achieve salvation for ourselves. In other words, we try to earn heaven–precisely what the Protestants so often accuse Catholics of doing.

And, in turn, from the guidance of the Spirit, and deep reflection on our experience and our attempts to live the Gospel, in turn the Church has taught these things.

Such as: sex without the commitment and openness of marriage, of total giving of self to the other, is bad for the couple and for their life together. Birth control has no point but to disrupt the natural order, to make it the responsibility of one partner, and so on.

Splitting the ashes, or scattering them without some sort of monument is selfish–it does not allow others to mourn the deceased person, by depriving them of a place to visit.

And so on. Not every question or need was thought of in the Biblical era, so the Bible does not have all the answers explicitly written. However, God first gave the Church and the Holy Spirit, so that we have access to what we need today.

 

[po18guy]

A few partially on-topic musings: America was founded as a protestant-based nation. Thus, even some Catholics still believe that the bible is the sum total of God’s message to man. This myopic (and completely incorrect) view leads to all manner of error. There is nothing in the bible about using methamphetamine, for example. Silent on stem cell research. Not a peep about nuclear weaponry. How do we know what is correct? Follow the law? Who guided the lawmakers?

Our Lord did tell the Apostles, before He ascended, that the Holy Spirit would remind them of all that He had taught them, and would lead them - men, not a book - to all truth. God’s word is living, and a publication is not. It cannot answer questions - only a living, breathing human being can do that. In the Old Testament, God sent Ezra and the Priests to interpret scripture so that the people could understand (Nehemiah 8:5-8). In the New Testament, we see the first example in Acts 8:26-35, where Philip interprets Isaiah to the Ethiopian eunuch so that he could understand.

I note that there are 139 uses of the word “preach” in the D-R New Testament. 139 mentions of preaching in 27 books. Daily preaching is how the Gospel was spread. If we do the math, there were 65 years, plus or minus, between the Pentecost and the completion of the New Testament. Yet, during those same years there were 23,725 days of preaching. How can 65 years of daily preaching that revealed God’s infinite truth be contained within 27 letters - some as short as 14 verses?

Rather than the bible as the primary means of transmission of the Gospel, as the reductionism of ‘sola scriptura’ has treated it, our Lord Jesus sent Apostles to preach daily - until the end of time. It occurs to me that the bible, as blessed and inspired as it is, remains essentially the Cliff’s Notes of creation and salvation history. From it, we receive the basics, but “Man lives on every word that issues from the mouth of God” and thus the word of a living God must be transmitted by living, breathing beings.

 

[horselvr]

Everyone:

Thank you so much for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut. There are quite a number of posts filled with a wealth of knowledge. This will take awhile for me to sift through and gather all the information that I want to add into the next conversation with my cousin.

Thank you all so much again.