Catholics and Immigration

[johnstown_johnn]

I cannot in my heart justify these illegal aliens coming into the United States. And it sickens me when our church flyer contains material from the local Archidoece supporting the illegals and asking us to turn to certain politicians because they vote in favor of this illegal aliens.

Some American bishops are disobedient to the Pope, so it is no surprise. Some of them just “do their own thing.”

 

[meeshy]

The USCCB as a whole is not disobedient to the Pope. If any of you think the Pope is not aware of or does not approve of the USCCB’s stance on immigration reform, you’re mistaken.

I, for one, have faith in our Bishops. I am upset that so many feel they can take or leave the guidance of our shepherds. Did Jesus say we could take it or leave it? No way. Then how is it that so many people think they are so much wiser and so much more “correct” than our Bishops?

What a pity.

Peace,
Meeshy

 

[meeshy]

Immigration, the war, death penalty, etc, we are allowed to have our own opinions even if they contradict the Pope’s.

War? The death penalty? Are you quite sure?

And please tell me: why in the world would you want to have any opinion which contradicts the Pope’s opinion? How could any person think they are more correct even than the Pope? Incredible!!

Peace,
Meeshy

 

[mary_bobo]

Positions on this issue are pretty well entrenched and I suspect very few people change their minds based on the arguments provided here, unless they were ambivalent to begin with. Those of us who oppose illegal immigration would be well advised to spend some effort making sure our politicians both local and national know where we stand on the issue. The one thing you can expect of most politicians is that they will act in what they perceive to be their best interest. We need to demonstrate that’s what is our interest is where their interests also lie.

Ender

I have and I will.

 

[french]

i’m definetely late into this topic, but here’s my two cents…

1. many Catholics are very anti abortion, and feel that you can’t be Catholic and pro choice. (i’m sure you’ve seen the bumper stickers.) yet many Catholics here think it’s ok to not support immigration. two faced, huh?
2. we should look at the immigration issue as a moral issue.

look at how some people are living in Mexico… they are poor, homeless, and they have two kids they need to provide for. yet it’s hard when you don’t have a job, and you have no food. yet just 60 miles north, there’s a country with a labor shortage. there are GREAT schools. the quality of lfie is better. any good parent would go north to that place ASAP!! i know that if i was a parent, i would in a heartbeat.

people say… well, just wait a few years. sorry, but when you have kids to provide for, you don’t have a few years.

if anyone honestly thinks that it’s ok to deport 12 - 20 million people, then just whoa… try and deport every person in new jersey, and NYC, and see how hard it is! that would be like kicking out all of the French in Québec… it would be catostrophically bad!!

and the economy… it would just totally crash, especially here in the south. i live in Austin, a very fastly growing city. if we were to deport the undocumented people here, oh my… our cities economy would collapse. it would be horrible.

we, as Catholics, have an obligation to do what’s moral… and if you think tearing families apart, and making people go back to living in the horrible conditions they lived in, then Lord have Mercy on your soul. it’s justtotally unChristian like.

i salute every Priest who helps undocumented people. i salute every Catholic who harbors an undocumented person, who’s just trying to give their family a better life. don’t you think that Christ would want that?!

i think as Catholics, we have an obligation to be pro amnesty. you don’t have to be pro illegal immigration… but you should at least be pro moral, and pro understanding.

you can say that undocumented people are law breakers, but come on now… they are just trying to help their families.

plus, it’s increasing the Catholic population a lot the dioscese i live in serves 455,000 people… in like 20 years, it’s going to double in population, because of immigration, legal and illegal!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

War? The death penalty? Are you quite sure?

And please tell me: why in the world would you want to have any opinion which contradicts the Pope’s opinion? How could any person think they are more correct even than the Pope? Incredible!!

Peace,
Meeshy

One word: Pride.

I think reflecting on the differences between an American Catholic and a Catholic American will reveal quite a bit.

 

[Ituyu]

I cannot in my heart justify these illegal aliens coming into the United States. And it sickens me when our church flyer contains material from the local Archidoece supporting the illegals and asking us to turn to certain politicians because they vote in favor of this illegal aliens.

The problem is that WE need all immigrants, legal and “illegal”, just as much as THEY need us. What is best for America is to find ways to get the labor we need “legally”. Sounds simple but that is something we have failed to do. Had we allowed “legal” immigration to fill the needed jobs we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

 

[Ituyu]

So, once again, let me ask the three questions no one dares answer:

Maybe it’s because the answer depends on the circumstances?

1. Is it morally permissable to hire an illegal imigrant?

Is it morally permissible to “kill”? It depends. But, if we’re talking about the majority those that are currently here “illegally” the answer is YES.

1. If it is morally permissible, are we morally obligated to pay him the same wage and benefits necessary to attract an American citizen to that job?

Sorry but that’s not the way wages are determined. They’re part of an economic equation that determines an optimum price for a particular good or service. So, that either a “yes” or “no” answer would be incorrect. We set prices to make profit (wages are a part of that equation) and that does not depend on one’s citizenship or nationality.

1. If we pay the same wage and benefits necessary to attract an American citizen to that job, is it morally permissible not to give the job to an American citizen?

Again under the parameters of question number 2 either yes or no would be incorrect or not applicable. But, if you’re asking if it is morally permissible to give a job to one person over another at the same rate of pay, the answer is YES. That is a standard hiring practice.

 

[Ituyu]

i’m definetely late into this topic, but here’s my two cents…

1. many Catholics are very anti abortion, and feel that you can’t be Catholic and pro choice. (i’m sure you’ve seen the bumper stickers.) yet many Catholics here think it’s ok to not support immigration. two faced, huh?
2. we should look at the immigration issue as a moral issue.

look at how some people are living in Mexico… they are poor, homeless, and they have two kids they need to provide for. yet it’s hard when you don’t have a job, and you have no food. yet just 60 miles north, there’s a country with a labor shortage. there are GREAT schools. the quality of lfie is better. any good parent would go north to that place ASAP!! i know that if i was a parent, i would in a heartbeat.

people say… well, just wait a few years. sorry, but when you have kids to provide for, you don’t have a few years.

if anyone honestly thinks that it’s ok to deport 12 - 20 million people, then just whoa… try and deport every person in new jersey, and NYC, and see how hard it is! that would be like kicking out all of the French in Québec… it would be catostrophically bad!!

and the economy… it would just totally crash, especially here in the south. i live in Austin, a very fastly growing city. if we were to deport the undocumented people here, oh my… our cities economy would collapse. it would be horrible.

we, as Catholics, have an obligation to do what’s moral… and if you think tearing families apart, and making people go back to living in the horrible conditions they lived in, then Lord have Mercy on your soul. it’s justtotally unChristian like.

i salute every Priest who helps undocumented people. i salute every Catholic who harbors an undocumented person, who’s just trying to give their family a better life. don’t you think that Christ would want that?!

i think as Catholics, we have an obligation to be pro amnesty. you don’t have to be pro illegal immigration… but you should at least be pro moral, and pro understanding.

you can say that undocumented people are law breakers, but come on now… they are just trying to help their families.

plus, it’s increasing the Catholic population a lot the dioscese i live in serves 455,000 people… in like 20 years, it’s going to double in population, because of immigration, legal and illegal!

Welcome to this discussion! Better late than never!!! In fact, you could say the same to me on this thread.

 

[french]

lol true, and thanks!

 

[carmelspirit]

The important word here is not “why” but “illegal.”

You don’t? You are either supporting illegal immigration or immigration without restrictions. There is no other way for everyone who wants to come here to get in. The definition of a criminal is someone who breaks the law. By definition, *everyone *who sneaks into the US is a criminal, whether you choose to call them that or not.
Don’t confuse the personal opinion of a single bishop with the moral teaching of the Church. In this case I have no problem rejecting his suggestion.

Ender

Despite what LA RAZA, MALDEF, the ACLU and many radical Socialist groups want everyone to believe, most American Hispanics oppose illegal immigration and AMNESTY for those who have entered into this country illegally. It rewards those who have violated our laws, and lead a life of deception, theft, and crime in order to remain here and work here illegally. State Department of Revenues, communities are cheated out of tax revenue, our social services are being depleted and American citizens and law-abiding immigrants have to do with less. The “hard-working” parishioners referred to in the post above are committing crimes of identity theft, using fraudulent identification, and many other crimes in order to be here. Yet, they are enjoying benefits and privileges of citizenship that are denied to law-abiding legal residents who are not citizens yet. Hispanic Americans are diverse culturally, ethnically, linguistically and even politically especially on this issue. We are not all 1) illegal aliens or 2) supporters or profiteers of illegal immigration.

See, youtube.com/watch?v=90SDkhwnEIo#U718fyc3Swg

 

[carmelspirit]

The problem is that WE need all immigrants, legal and “illegal”, just as much as THEY need us. What is best for America is to find ways to get the labor we need “legally”. Sounds simple but that is something we have failed to do. Had we allowed “legal” immigration to fill the needed jobs we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

The discussion is about ILLEGAL immigration. No, we don’t NEED illegal aliens. They represent just 2-5% of our overall population and despite the false claims of the industrie that exploit them to the detriment of American workers, in no labor sector in which illegal aliens are employed are they anywhere near the majority. Construction not agriculture is the number one industry where they are employed now and represent just 20% of the workers (taking jobs from tradesmen, union workers, etc.). So when you say that they are doing jobs Americans won’t do, you are insulting the 80% of the other American workers doing those jobs. While illegal aliens are just 2-5% of our overall population, they represent 29% of the federal prison population, of people convicted of violent crimes of rape, murder, assault, robbery, kidnapping etc.

BTW: I’m Hispanic and I can see the reality of this situation. To solve the problems that occur in the sending countries one must put international pressure on those countries to do right by their citizens, not demand that we become and continue to be the employment and social services agencies for the underclass that these immoral, inhumane elitist, oligarchies like Mexico have abandoned.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… While illegal aliens are just 2-5% of our overall population, they represent 29% of the federal prison population, of people convicted of violent crimes of rape, murder, assault, robbery, kidnapping etc. …

Can you documant this?

 

[meeshy]

i’m definetely late into this topic, but here’s my two cents…

1. many Catholics are very anti abortion, and feel that you can’t be Catholic and pro choice. (i’m sure you’ve seen the bumper stickers.) yet many Catholics here think it’s ok to not support immigration. two faced, huh?
2. we should look at the immigration issue as a moral issue.

look at how some people are living in Mexico… they are poor, homeless, and they have two kids they need to provide for. yet it’s hard when you don’t have a job, and you have no food. yet just 60 miles north, there’s a country with a labor shortage. there are GREAT schools. the quality of lfie is better. any good parent would go north to that place ASAP!! i know that if i was a parent, i would in a heartbeat.

people say… well, just wait a few years. sorry, but when you have kids to provide for, you don’t have a few years.

if anyone honestly thinks that it’s ok to deport 12 - 20 million people, then just whoa… try and deport every person in new jersey, and NYC, and see how hard it is! that would be like kicking out all of the French in Québec… it would be catostrophically bad!!

and the economy… it would just totally crash, especially here in the south. i live in Austin, a very fastly growing city. if we were to deport the undocumented people here, oh my… our cities economy would collapse. it would be horrible.

we, as Catholics, have an obligation to do what’s moral… and if you think tearing families apart, and making people go back to living in the horrible conditions they lived in, then Lord have Mercy on your soul. it’s justtotally unChristian like.

i salute every Priest who helps undocumented people. i salute every Catholic who harbors an undocumented person, who’s just trying to give their family a better life. don’t you think that Christ would want that?!

i think as Catholics, we have an obligation to be pro amnesty. you don’t have to be pro illegal immigration… but you should at least be pro moral, and pro understanding.

you can say that undocumented people are law breakers, but come on now… they are just trying to help their families.

plus, it’s increasing the Catholic population a lot the dioscese i live in serves 455,000 people… in like 20 years, it’s going to double in population, because of immigration, legal and illegal!

No matter late into the topic, your post is very worthwhile and very appreciated by those of us who support our Bishops in their effort to reform the unjust immigration laws.

Please keep posting, and please contact as many Senators and Representatives as you can to make them aware that there are many citizens who feel as you do.

Peace,
Meeshy

 

[meeshy]

One word: Pride.

I think reflecting on the differences between an American Catholic and a Catholic American will reveal quite a bit.

I completely agree.

 

[meeshy]

It is a source of comfort to know that when we have questions about any issue, questions about which way to turn in our lives, questions about raising our children, questions about our marriages, jobs, our social relationships, questions about anything in life; it is a source of comfort to know that we can find answers by looking to Holy Mother Church and to our Bishops.

Therefore, I do not worry about whether my position on immigration reform is correct or not; my Bishops have already said the laws are unjust. I trust my Church and I trust my Bishops.

I leave the discussion to those who still do not wish to follow our shepherds.

For those who would like to know more about the U.S. Bishops’ position on immigration reform, please visit their website.

justiceforimmigrants.org/

And for everyone who supports the Bishops, please remember to call your Senators and Representatives.

Peace,
Meeshy

 

[kbharbert]

Hatred or disdain of any person or group, no matter what they have done, is not a Catholic attitude. The immigration issue is a difficult one and we need to approach it as our bishops have approached it: with open hearts and open minds, not anger or hatred.

How often do we actually know why a person has immigrated here illegally? Have we lived in that person’s shoes? Do we really care about that person’s life, other than how it impacts on ours?

I know a Mexican woman who walked through the desert with a baby on her hip and her 3 year old daughter at her side, to escape from her abusive husband, who beat her severely on a regular basis, sometimes to within an inch of her life.

Her parents are not living. She had nowhere to turn. So she walked through the desert and crossed the border into our country, illegally. Do we punish her and send her back? Or do we accept her and try to help her re-order her life?

While I do not support illegal immigration, neither do I support viewing human beings as inferior or criminal because they crossed our border without a visa. We have to put ourselves in their shoes. We have to follow the example of our bishops, who are following the will of Jesus.

As a matter of fact, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is very pro-immigrant, and has set up a special campaign with the title “National Justice for Immigrants,” headed by Bishop Gerald R. Barnes of California. His recommendation for the U.S.? Broad legalization.

Let’s look to our bishops for guidance on this issue, as we do on all issues. Dare we say our opinions are more correct than those of Holy Mother Church??

Please open your hearts, open your minds, and help the poor and disenfranchised among us to retain the dignity they deserve, rather than casting them away as if they are less worthy of God’s love than we Americans.

As I mentioned in my last post, which has been deleted, we are only Americans because those who came before us took the land away from the original inhabitants. Borders, ownership of land, and material posessions are things of this world to which we need not be too closely attached.

Praying for a compassionate nation,
Meeshy

**while i agree that many come here for reasons unknown to me and that we should treat ALL with respect and dignity i DO believe the laws for illegal immigration need to be enforced.
i am also of the ilk that does not believe we should HAVE to make english the national language or dial 1 for english.

**

 

[vern_humphrey]

It is a source of comfort to know that when we have questions about any issue, questions about which way to turn in our lives, questions about raising our children, questions about our marriages, jobs, our social relationships, questions about anything in life; it is a source of comfort to know that we can find answers by looking to Holy Mother Church and to our Bishops.

Therefore, I do not worry about whether my position on immigration reform is correct or not; my Bishops have already said the laws are unjust. I trust my Church and I trust my Bishops.

I leave the discussion to those who still do not wish to follow our shepherds.

For those who would like to know more about the U.S. Bishops’ position on immigration reform, please visit their website.

justiceforimmigrants.org/

And for everyone who supports the Bishops, please remember to call your Senators and Representatives.

Peace,
Meeshy

But you still haven’t answered those three simple questions:

1. Is it morally permissible to hire an illegal alien?
2. If you hire an illegal alien, is it morally permissibe to pay him less than you’d have to pay an American citizen to do the same job?
3. If yoiu’re going to pay enough to have an American citizen do the job, is it morally permissible to** not** hire the American citizen?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

But you still haven’t answered those three simple questions:

1. Is it morally permissible to hire an illegal alien?
2. If you hire an illegal alien, is it morally permissibe to pay him less than you’d have to pay an American citizen to do the same job?
3. If yoiu’re going to pay enough to have an American citizen do the job, is it morally permissible to** not** hire the American citizen?

Actually he did answer it.

BTW
Did you stop beating…

 

[stinkcat_14]

Vern says:

But you still haven’t answered those three simple questions:

1. Is it morally permissible to hire an illegal alien?

1. If you hire an illegal alien, is it morally permissibe to pay him less than you’d have to pay an American citizen to do the same job?

1. If yoiu’re going to pay enough to have an American citizen do the job, is it morally permissible to not hire the American citizen?

Let me answer the second two questions and throw a little wrinkle into the mix. At my university we frequently hire immigrants to teach in certain areas, primarily because we don’t pay what a US citizen would require to do the same job. The average starting salary for new Ph.Ds in finance is over $100,000 per year. At my school, we don’t pay full professors that much. The result is that five out the last six people we have hired have been immigrants. The one American we hired, we had to fire because he was incompetent. Anyway, we are hiring legal immigrants, but is what we are doing moral? That is, is it moral in this case to hire immigrants because they will work for less?