Catholics and marriage licenses

[ByWhatAuthority]

ok thanks Katie, post 13 can be read the way you suggest although post 20 seems to deny this. Neither posts are crystal clear so perhaps the OP can specifically address the question of taxation with respect to the question.

I don’t understand the question? I only mentioned property taxes because I know my friends are exempt from paying them on their estate. They removed themselves from the incorporated US. That’s why their daughter is unable to apply for a state marriage license.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Post 20 is asserted by the op so that is a moot point. Post 23 refutes that point, and so do many subsequent replies. Read a bit further. There are many context clues to point to issues with authority.

The op’s user name is interesting too.

My favorite book by Robert Hugh Benson, By What Authority

 

[alice24]

They removed themselves from the incorporated US

Did they set a little flag and declared independence? How did this worked?

 

[abucs]

Hello ByWhatAuthority,

it appears there are some people on this thread that suspect your friends are in the ‘sovereign citizens’ movement.

Their replies seem to be coming with this assumption in mind.

Could you confirm whether or not your friends see themselves as ‘sovereign citizens’.

Thank you.

Also as Roma has said, if someone in America is not registered with a state marriage licence then they will be avoiding personal income tax because in that country the tax threshold is lower for married couples than for individual singles. This seems to be where other posters on this thread are having a problem with your request.

Regards.

 

[runningdude]

Regardless of why they can’t; I think, getting a license from the state to marry should at the very least be optional. It’s a sacrament for pity’s sake and we can’t have it unless the government says so!!???

You misunderstand what marriage is. Marriage is meant for the good of society. The church recognizes that the state has a legitimate role in regulating marriage. The Catholic Church herself empowers the state to co-regulate Catholic marriages through recognition in Canon Law.

The most relevant entry is Canon 1059:

The marriage of catholics, even if only one party is baptised, is governed not only by divine law but also by canon law, without prejudice to the competence of the civil authority in respect of the merely civil effects of the marriage.
Code of Canon Law: text - IntraText CT

There is no “civil marriage” versus “sacramental marriage”. There is only marriage. The marriage bond is the very basis of civil society; the marriage bond is available to non-Catholics without interference from Catholic law for this reason. Canon law adds requirements for Catholics to protect the church’s interests in the marriage bond; the church does not undermine the state’s regulations meant to protect society’s interests. Only in rare cases of persecution will a Catholic be permitted to bypass civil registry.

 

[KathleenT]

How did they remove themselves from US jurisdiction?

Asking for the Confederate states.

 

[casslean]

Your friends are not exempt from paying property taxes and there is no process by which one can remove themselves from the “incorporated US” because there is no such thing as the “incorporated US”. Your friends simply choose not to pay property taxes and, as yet, the state has not enforced their delinquency against them.

 

[KathleenT]

I suppose the thought process here is: “it isn’t illegal if we are getting away with it.”

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

But that isn’t what he said. He said unable.

She probably could but it would be illegally obtained. If she lied to the clerk; she could probably get a license. She’s not going to lie and trick the state do she can receive a sacrament. Geeesh! And for the record, I’m not a “he”. Lol

 

[casslean]

She probably could but it would be illegally obtained. If she lied to the clerk; she could probably get a license. She’s not going to lie and trick the state do she can receive a sacrament.

She would have to lie to obtain a marriage license?

A marriage license merely verifies that there are no impediments to these people being married. If she would have to lie to get one, it sounds like there might be some serious validity issues.

 

[alice24]

She probably could but it would be illegally obtained. If she lied to the clerk; she could probably get a license. She’s not going to lie and trick the state do she can receive a sacrament.

She would have to lie to obtain a marriage license?

A marriage license merely verifies that there are no impediments to these people being married. If she would have to lie to get one, it sounds like there might be some serious validity issues.

This. HUGE red flag…

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

1ke:

But that isn’t what he said. He said unable.

She probably could but it would be illegally obtained. If she lied to the clerk; she could probably get a license. She’s not going to lie and trick the state do she can receive a sacrament. Geeesh! And for the record, I’m not a “he”. Lol

This is sounding worse and worse the more you talk.

Only DC and Montana require a blood test. The rest require a photo id of both participants (may or may not be government issued by state) and a birth certificate.

Some have waiting periods. You’re stating that your friend can drive legally so they MUST have a photo id. You also stated they had valid birth certificates.

What in the world is the issue here?

 

[1ke]

You have not answered the question. What specifically is preventing her from obtaining a marriage license? There are very few things that would make someone be denied. Is she related to the groom? Until you answer the question this thread is pointless. . You have stated she is unable to obtain a license. There are very few reasons for that. Even non-citizens and non-residents can obtain a license. What prevents her from obtaining a license?

 

[TheLittleLady]

My magic 8-ball says that if a family is part of the Sovereign Citizen brigade, they have a big pile of unpaid property tax and income tax. When my fictional family breaks one law, it is easy to break more and there could be all sorts of warrants and or liens out there.

If this fictional SC family member were to get a marriage license, that is a public record and would be a searchable record that might turn the feds on to where they are holed up avoiding their duties as citizens to pay taxes.

Just a wild guess.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

No, you misunderstand me. I don’t have a problem with registration of a marriage AFTER it happens. It’s only the license/permission from the state to commence with a sacrament that has me troubled.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Hello ByWhatAuthority,

it appears there are some people on this thread that suspect your friends are in the ‘sovereign citizens’ movement.

Their replies seem to be coming with this assumption in mind.

Could you confirm whether or not your friends see themselves as ‘sovereign citizens’.

Thank you.

Also as Roma has said, if someone in America is not registered with a state marriage licence then they will be avoiding personal income tax because in that country the tax threshold is lower for married couples than for individual singles. This seems to be where other posters on this thread are having a problem with your request.

Regards.

They are not nor have I ever once implied that they are "sovereign citizens ". What they have done is completely unique. At least I have never met anyone else who has done what they are doing.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Okay, lets say you are all correct and she absolutely can get a marriage license. The fact of the matter is; She believes it is morally wrong for herself to ask the states permission/license to marry. It would be going against her conscience to do so. Her and her family’s understanding is that the government has its place and as they have taken certain steps to remove themselves from what they see as an overreaching government. I agree with her! And she should not be forced to go against her conscience on this matter, by the church, imo. You can disagree with us all you want but we are not breaking any of the church commandments by thinking this way. I’ve already said they are both Catholics in good standing. They go to mass and are very well known in the community. There are no questions from the church in regards to that.
This is all about whether Catholics should continue to have to ask the states permission to receive a sacrament. Not about whether or not it’s wrong to remove yourself from a corporation. At the very least, there should be an option to contract with the state, imo. And the Catholic Church should not be acting as agents for this very corrupt government.

 

[casslean]

This is all about whether Catholics should continue to have to ask the states permission to receive a sacrament. Not about whether or not it’s wrong to remove yourself from a corporation. At the very least, there should be an option to contract with the state, imo. And the Catholic Church should not be acting as agents for this very corrupt government.

Let’s try this again.

A marriage license is not “permission” from the government. It is the accepted practice used to determine that there are no impediments to marriage.

Your friend is not unique. Her opinions are not unique. Lots of other people hold them and think they’ve done what your friend has done. And then they run into the same problems your friend is running into.

The church is not wrong. The church is not an agent of the state. Continuing to assert such opinions because they support the position you want to hold doesn’t make them true.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Also as Roma has explained , in not having a state marriage licence the person could avoid taxes (looking forward) because they would be cheating on the tax threshold considerations?

I don’t believe that’s the case at all. Here in the states if you are single you pay more then if you are married. There are tax credits for married people. Singles get hammered! I don’t know for sure though, maybe it works like that if you are really well off…??? Is it better to be single if you are rich??? Also, if you add kids to the mix you pay a lot less. My friends situation is in no way shape or form about cheating the system.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Okay, lets say you are all correct and she absolutely can get a marriage license. The fact of the matter is; She believes it is morally wrong for herself to ask the states permission/license to marry. It would be going against her conscience to do so. Her and her family’s understanding is that the government has its place and as they have taken certain steps to remove themselves from what they see as an overreaching government. I agree with her! And she should not be forced to go against her conscience on this matter, by the church, imo. You can disagree with us all you want but we are not breaking any of the church commandments by thinking this way. I’ve already said they are both Catholics in good standing. They go to mass and are very well known in the community. There are no questions from the church in regards to that.
This is all about whether Catholics should continue to have to ask the states permission to receive a sacrament. Not about whether or not it’s wrong to remove yourself from a corporation. At the very least, there should be an option to contract with the state, imo. And the Catholic Church should not be acting as agents for this very corrupt government.

So let’s say the church would need $10,000 per ‘investigated’ person (so 20k total) to do the kind of investigative work and verification that can be done by the government for $10…because they’ve set up the birth certificates and driver’s ID’s and done all the work already through a streamlined process. Hire a lawyer, do a name trace, do a full background check, etc, etc. (of course some of that money is for sunk costs of that person getting into the kind of work needed for full identity verification)

Would that be a route she’d be willing to go?

I’m guessing not.

And we’ve named other countries that allow marriages before the civil union. One poster mentioned a Canadian city. Get a month-long tourist visa, set up in a hotel, get those Baans posted and wait. I mean if she’s really a US citizen then getting a month long turist visit to Canada should be a walk in the park.

This reeks of ‘special snowflake’ behavior.