Catholics Don't Understand Church History

[NevermoreLenore]

To your point, I think knowledge and critical thinking skills just are not being taught much anymore in American schools. I see younger people (I’m 40, for reference) who do not know classical literary references, world history, and basic civics let alone how to debate, theorise, philosophise, or present a coherent line of thinking to defend a topic–whether they agree with that topic or not. I remember being given a position to defend and being graded based upon how I laid out the argument; it didn’t matter whether I agreed with what I was arguing. I think this is one reason I can understand many viewpoints that I don’t personally hold and I think when I do present a case for something in which I believe strongly, I am more influential because I truly understand the opposite side. Know your enemy…

There was a time, not long ago, when biblical stories, parables, and proverbs were universally known, regardless of the faith of the individual. Those days are dust in the wind, and we are left with the scoffing of objective truth and the argument that everything is relative. We need to figure out different ways to engage. Personally, I think preaching and debate are best reserved for those who still enjoy and are skilled for those things, and in our daily lives we need to be witnesses of Christ and embody charity toward everyone. All the talk about ‘gotcha moments’ and ‘making dems squirm’ do not set well with me and are wholly ineffective; I don’t see a lot of charity it this attitude.

 

[Anrakyr]

Some individuals, even highly placed individuals, did in fact try to sell indulgences. The Church , however, never authorized, or participated in, such sales or such is my understanding from my study of history.

There was a friar that had a jingle:
As soon as the gold in the casket rings
The rescued soul to heaven springs
Johann Tetzel

He collected money for Saint Peters basilica in Rome.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

You and I think that, but when I attend Catholic Bible study and some older person there says they don’t understand some super-easy parable of Jesus that I learned at my mama’s knee and have heard explained from the pulpit about 50 times since, each time that gospel comes up in the cycle, it’s obvious some people are just not ready to tackle Papal encyclicals.

I agree. And I also agree with others who pointed out that it’s not necessary to be a scholar to be a good Catholic (or Hindu, or Jew, or Buddhist…) Where the tragedy lies is when people say “I disagree with the Church on X, Y, or Z” and of course if they dug a little deeper they would see that the position of the church on X, Y, and Z is not at all what they think it is. Or, as you can see constantly on this web site, “good” Catholics are often on opposite sides of issues or have different interpretations. As do popes and cardinals.

To your point, I think knowledge and critical thinking skills just are not being taught much anymore in American schools. I see younger people (I’m 40, for reference) who do not know classical literary references, world history, and basic civics let alone how to debate, theorize, philosophize, or present a coherent line of thinking to defend a topic–whether they agree with that topic or not.

As a former teacher, I couldn’t agree more! If you remember a book called “Cultural Literacy” by E.D. Hirsh back in the 1980s, he said the same thing. Also, I am lucky enough to have letters and school essays from various relatives dating back to the 1890s and into the 1920s. All went to public schools, none graduated from college, and yet all of these letters and essays are extremely well written.

Also, I exchange almost daily e-mails with a friend in her mid-60s who is a Muslim Indian from Kenya who now lives in Canada. She asks about things she runs across (keep in mind she speaks fluent English, and has since was a child) that are Biblical references but go over her head–“go the extra mile” is the most recent. She knows the phrase, but not the origin or context. In contrast, there is an Afghan woman who is a best-selling author (in English) that we have met several times. She explained that her Afghan parents bought and read books to her that contained references they knew she would need to know to be at home in a different culture–Mother Goose, fairy tales, etc. It’s one thing if you are from a similar culture, say Mexico, but if you are from a totally different culture, it’s very hard, and I sympathize with them.

 

[Gorgias]

I have been struck by how little most laity and priests really know about church history or doctrine.

To be fair, many Protestants know little about church history, as well. They know a bit about Jesus and the early church of the 1st century AD, and then their knowledge jumps to the 15th century and Luther’s theses.

John Henry Cardinal Newman, an Anglican priest who converted to Catholicism, made the assertion that “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”

 

[Gorgias]

What about… we aren’t talking about protestants, we are talking about Catholics who have the “truth” and should know better.

The OP’s claim is that, once he left the Catholic Church, he became aware that “Catholics don’t know their faith.” I don’t think that this is a fair characterization, at least in terms of laying it solely at the feet of Catholics, as such.

Should all of us – Catholic or Protestant – know our faith and its history better? Absolutely!

 

[HollyDolly]

Well yes we probably should know more. Now if you asked my late parents, they definetly knew the Church and its teachings, even though they probably never read a papal bull ,letters etc. their whole life. But then, they were educated in the faith back in the 1920s and 30s, were taught by nuns, long before the New Order mass. My dad in fact studied apologetics with the jesuits at Marquette, when he was studying to be a mechanical engineer. His Aunt Eva, was a School Sister of Notre Dame as was her cousin Elizabeth, and his first cousin Carlene was a Sister of Charity of Nazareth ,Ky. My mother had cousins who were priests, and my dad’s cousin in Germany Edgar, was a monsignur . So both family’s are grounded in the faith,. And maybe that’s what you think of when it comes to Catholics and their knowledge of the Church.

 

[hadulzo]

Let me get this straight. You left the one true church because of what other people don’t know. So apparently the logic is you are denying yourself heaven because everyone else is? Sorry, fall to see the logic.

 

[Vico]

…

Forgot to mention that the Bull Exsurge Domine specifically addressed errors contained in the books or writings of Martin Luther.

 

[Anrakyr]

The OP’s claim is that, once he left the Catholic Church, he became aware that “Catholics don’t know their faith.” I don’t think that this is a fair characterization

The observation was likely triggered by Catholics (and I know this from experience) rushing to try to bring you home. They try to use argument to bring you around but your average Catholics knowledge doesn’t extend past the basics in the catechism. Bare in mind that’s not a harsh criticism that’s the reality. Most catholic are not aware of how female alter servers were ushered past the popes office when he was ill or why African liturgy has exceptions for musical instruments in mass.

The average person doesn’t ask more question then they want answers for. This applies to everything.

Trust me, my life as a tech would be so much easier if the office would just asked how to do something instead of shoe-horning what they want and asking me to fix it when it doesn’t work.
Or worse, when it does and a larger problem snowballs in the back round.

Should all of us – Catholic or Protestant – know our faith and its history better? Absolutely!

That my friend is more or less the point.

 

[Gorgias]

That my friend is more or less the point.

No… the OP’s point was that Catholics should learn their faith better. I stand with St. John Henry Newman in asserting that, if Protestants knew their history, they’d cease being Protestants and return to the Church!

 

[Gab123]

Martin Luther

if you trust in the Bible, then you have to trust the Catholic Church, being that the Bible itself does not tell you what books should belong in the Bible. For this you have to trust the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church. The reason why the Protestant Bible only has 66 books instead of the original 73, is because Protestantism has put the faith in the Father of Protestantism, a German ex-Catholic priest named Martin Luther who took it upon himself to remove books from the Bible and begin inventing new doctrines based on his own interpretation of Scripture. What’s more, he edited the scriptures to fit his new ideas, when he added the word “Alone” to Romans 3:28

As much as I love and respect Protestants and evangelical Christianity for their zeal and love of Christ and the gospel, the problem is that the Protestant rebellion began the great apostasy from truth, which over the centuries has led to all the sectarianism and different brands of Christianity over the past 500 years, that by the time the 19th century arrived, sectarianism had degenerated into groups such as the LDS and JehovahW who even deny the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. From the Health and Wealth Name it and Claim It gospel, to the Once Saved Always Saved and everything in between, Luther’s breakaway ushered in division in the Church.

Robbed from a complete Bible, robbed from the Sacraments, robbed from the truths about the Communion of Saints, robbed of the treasures of the faith and the weapons to fight against the forces of hell. Such has been the deception of the evil one that believers attack the very Church founded by Christ, not knowing what they are doing.

 

[umamibella]

African liturgy has exceptions for musical instruments in mass.

Most Catholics are aware of liturgical inculturation, it is a huge area and a very fascinating one. It has its supporters and its detractors. We in Australia use it for the indigenous community. In my view it has added a rich vibrancy to the Church and speaks to people in culture they can understand, ‘in country’
Others would disagree.

 

[Anrakyr]

Most…

Most Americans don’t know that Canada isn’t a land of ice and snow let alone that you can go to a mall in Africa.

Excuse my suspended disbelief that Catholics universally know the church globe over.

 

[umamibella]

Most Americans don’t know that Canada isn’t a land of ice and snow let alone that you can go to a mall in Africa.

Excuse my suspended disbelief that Catholics universally know the church globe over.

This has nothing to do with Liturgical Inculturation.
Most people land in Australia expecting kangaroos hopping down the main street and desert lapping at the sea.
Africa is a continent, which country or do you mean all countries of Africa?

 

[Anrakyr]

This has nothing to do with…

I has to do with proximal knowledge. You know more about whats around you. You know less about whats farther away. You can alter this by choosing to know.

Most people do not make this choice. This translated into faith as well.

 

[umamibella]

I has to do with proximal knowledge. You know more about whats around you. You know less about whats farther away. You can alter this by choosing to know.

Most people do not make this choice. This translated into faith as well.

I am struggling to understand your leap of faith about American general knowledge of how much ice and snow there is in Canada to Catholic understanding of Church History. The former is the result of education at the school level. A nation’s curriculum dictates the extent of knowledge of other nations. Some nations are not so concerned in whats going on outside their own country, others are.
Catholicism in America is very strong in its tradition of promoting and learning the Catechism. This is very different to the traditions of knowing Catholicism in Australia. We have different traditions.
Then again Catholics in India or the Philipines or Nigeria also have different traditions of knowing their faith.
Catholics the world over are very aware of issues like liturgical inculturation, just read the threads on CAF.

Then there is the definition of ‘knowing the church’
What is that for you?

Look at the current threads on the series ‘The Chosen’ where people are discussing how accurate it’s theology is. That is quite an insight.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

I would have to agree with you faith4ever. My grandmother a devoted Catholic, who spoke broken English, could not read or write except for her name did not know much about Church history. But i can confirm she had a faith that moved mountains. My grandmother knew the gospels accounts and lived them throughout the liturgical calendar year all her life. I don’t think you could convince my grandmother to reject the Catholic Church Jesus founded. I don’t think you would be able to convince her to attend any other church or religion invented by a man or woman this includes all non-catholic Christian Church’s.
You see, God does not care about your historical knowledge or intellectual properties. My grandmother’s faith in Jesus Christ is all that matters to God.
Yes the Catholic Church has had some church leaders who failed the Church militant, but God is forever faithful. In fact selling indulgences to the German flock does not compare to our first Pope St. Peter who denied Christ three times. Can you believe that? Yet we know God is faithful to His Word when men fail God.
Please be informed. The Catholic Church and her members are one of the main record keepers of History since the first century both good and bad. You cannot deny the Catholic Church who recorded the history you wrongly claim to have knowledge of over Catholic’s who wrote the history before any man made start up Christian church began protesting the Catholic faith Jesus founded upon humanity.
Peace be with you

 

[Justin_Mary]

I know it’s not all Catholics, but it’s 90 per cent. It is a monument to ignorance. I am not going back, but I suggest those of you who still care work to change that.

I can see your point, however I think you missed the point. Sure, Church history is important, to some people. But we’re not going to be judged by how well we know Church history. But on the love we share.

That’s not to say all Catholics love as we should, but if we’re going to roll up our sleeves, we need to get to work on showing each other how to love.

 

[AlNg]

Why not stay and start a thread or two about Church history.

Good idea, and better to narrow it down to a particular time in Church history.

I have been struck by how little most laity and priests really know about church history or doctrine.

I agree with the history part.

Here is a history question:

My favorite question to Catholics (which I am, by the way) is asking “Why do Western Christians make the sign of the cross left to right and Orthodox make it right to left?”

And your answer? I read that for hundreds of years it was from right to left but the Roman Church changed it.

 

[AlNg]

It was about a lot of things,

The 95 theses was mostly about indulgences, was it not? Which of the 95 theses are you thinking about ?