Catholics Don't Understand Church History

[MarkRome]

No. The burden of proof is always on the one making the claim. I eagerly await yours.

When someone says “I haven’t met” or “I have found”, that is the proof claim. Now, if you don’t agree with my experience, that’s fine. I have no burden to employ the scientific method for you.
On the other hand, if you don’t like the claim or disagree with it, then just disprove it. If it is not true then it should be easy to disprove.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Easiest and least courageous thing to do is to leave the Catholic faith, then come onto a Catholic forum and condemn with real ignorance Catholics who you believe aren’t being Catholic enough.
Do you see your hypocrisy?

 

[MarkRome]

the two claims are not the same

Please explain why you think that.

 

[Niblo]

When someone says “I haven’t met” or “I have found”, that is the proof claim. Now, if you don’t agree with my experience, that’s fine. I have no burden to employ the scientific method for you.
On the other hand, if you don’t like the claim or disagree with it, then just disprove it. If it is not true then it should be easy to disprove.

Had you said – in your original claim: ‘I have yet to meet an ex-Catholic who really understood their faith’ then I would be obliged to take you at your word; to accept that this is your experience.

But that is not what you said; and we both know it. Here (for one last time) is your original claim (my emphasis):

‘ I have found that 100% of Catholics who have left the Church never really understood their faith.’

Maybe you were simply being careless in your use of language; engaging in a spot of hyperbole; heedless of the fact that you have not met – not interviewed – every single ex-Catholic, and therefore are in no position to assess their understanding of that faith.

Have a nice day.

 

[c4csp]

Catholics who leave the faith for a Protestant or other religion, never understood Catholicism. Now if they leave and become atheist, they probably do not fully understand the faith or they just have fallen to temporal pleasures and are rejecting God outright, which we all have free will to do. However, leaving Catholicism to become Protestant or other religion makes no sense if one actually understood the faith.

 

[MarkRome]

Have a nice day.

You too. Well my claim stands then. Thanks.

 

[Wannano]

Maybe you are right, but I question whether most Catholics have a good understanding of their faith. I have had priests give me different answers to the same question.

 

[Montrose]

No, it really isn’t semantics.

I agree with Niblo, the two claims are not the same.

Why can’t you focus on his point which is why Catholics walk away from the Church or are we going to have 50 exchanges on irrelevancies.

 

[MarkRome]

“To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” John Henry Cardinal Newman

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Pope Innocent IV explained it like this (Commentaria in quinque libros decretalia, Ad liber I):

Until very recently, papal encyclicals were only even addressed to bishops. And theologians were the only others who really read them. In the Catholic Church we are one body and help bear each other’s burdens. Not everyone is expected to be a walking encyclopedia or catechism. Different members have different gifts and roles.

As an Orthodox Christian this warms my heart. God bless you.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Real problem I have encountered with Luther is that he seems to be somewhat hypocritical.

His writings about freedom gave rise to Peasant War. When Feudal Lords started wining, he called Peasants dogs and told Feudal Lords to slaughter them as they, the Lords, held all the power- this change of his doctrine actually helped Protestantism thrive because unlike other heresies, Feudal Lords could actually get authority over Church and appoint their family or loyal vassals to be Bishops without needing to ask Pope. Especially in HRE where Emperor drew his authority from being crowned by Pope… if Pope was invalid, then why would they need to respect Emperor?

He told Pope he would accept his (Pope’s) decision “as that of Christ” while he already wrote in his private correspondence that Pope is an Anti-Christ.

Though one must admit that Luther was all against divorce and even though he did not specifically condemn bigamy of his Patron, that was one of his more shining points. After Protestantism got established and supported, he did not change his doctrine left and right anymore.

At the end of his life, Luther even said that when he started, people were believers but now they are godless and that unbelief has risen. Thanks to Protestantism, we got rationalism, we got Secular Rulers trying to rule over the Church as with Austria trying to control it’s Church and one can even link French Revolution to Protestantism (by quite some stretch in my opinion).

 

[Gorgias]

Yet most reformers definitely had a good idea of the CC, even as they came from it’s clergy, some being teachers.

And yet, they nevertheless invented their own novel doctrine which is in conflict with the Church’s.

 

[fredystairs]

Especially about the authority of the pope.

If my recollection is correct, the Church gathered some bishops and theologians together to review the 95 theses and agreed with about half of them. I tried looking up the exact number but was unable.

I’m not saying how Luther went about doing what he did was correct, or that what he did was correct, just that he was not wrong on some of the issues.

Pax

 

[fredystairs]

I wholeheartedly agree.:+1:t2:

 

[mcq72]

And yet, they nevertheless invented their own novel doctrine which is in conflict with the Church’s

Luther is in good company then. The Jewish leaders thought Jesus had some “novel” ideas also.

I also like to state a novel correction fits a novel tradition.

 

[Gorgias]

Luther is in good company then. The Jewish leaders thought Jesus had some “novel” ideas also.

The difference is that Jesus is divine and Luther is not. The issue is “doctrine that conflicts with what God reveals to us”, and the Jews and Luther alike fall on the wrong side of that line.

I also like to state a novel correction fits a novel tradition.

Not when the ‘novel tradition’ is divine doctrine and the ‘novel correction’ is human modification.

 

[ArchStanton]

the church down the street is wrong, never us (CC).

Did the church down the street possess the keys?
Did the church down the street write the NT?
Was the church down the street established 2,000 years ago by Christ?

 

[Gorgias]

Understand, the church down the street is wrong, never us (CC).

No – Jesus is never wrong, having given Peter a grant of proxy. Did He give your Church a divine grant of proxy in setting doctrine?

(You can keep trying the same snarky response, but it will continue to fail on these grounds each and every time…)

 

[goout]

I have left the Catholic Church, and since I have been gone and studying the issue I have been struck by how little most laity and priests really know about church history or doctrine.

It started a few years ago when I looked at the comments at the bottom of an internet article very critical of Pope Francis. These “conservative” Catholics were going on about how evil Martin Luther was. I pointed out that all the things in his 95 points have been eliminated by the Catholic Church (it was all about selling indulgences, after all). They viciously jumped on me and attacked me saying that is not true, when it is a simple fact if history.

I have had so many conversations like that with Catholics I came to see that they really have no idea about the facts of their faith. Like my last parish priest in Salem, Oregon who openly stated in a church group that papal encyclicals are “too hard to read.” I know it’s not all Catholics, but it’s 90 per cent. It is a monument to ignorance. I am not going back, but I suggest those of you who still care work to change that.

Good luck finding less human ignorance in your next church.

 

[Montrose]

Understand, the church down the street is wrong, never us (CC).

You are correct that the Catholic Church cannot err in matters of faith and morals. It is the only Church established by Christ (God) and not by man. Only the Catholic Church was given authority by God to teach in matters of faith and morals. All teachings of the Church ARE teachings of God.