Catholics- Would you kill Joseph Smith?

[A_Nonny_Mouse]

Short answer: No.

To me, Joseph Smith was either a false prophet or mentally ill. I think of him as Charles Taze Russell crossed with Mohammed. He was a bigamist and an opponent of the Truth, who set himself up as being greater than Christ.

Which is more or less beside the point: I do not believe he deserved death. And if under any circumstances he might have, it should have been at the hands of a competent authority after due process, not at the hands of a murderous lynch mob.

I am a Christian…a Catholic, to be specific. While I oppose Smith and his legacy with every fiber of my being, the way to fight the likes of him is with the Truth, not the gun. I do not believe that the deadly force used in his killing fits the criteria of either self-defense or a just war. It was murder.

I confess that I am something of a whimp, that I could not fight my way out of a wet paper bag. Let’s face it, I am actually a fat, lazy, middle-aged chicken****. But I once witnessed four or five street youths accost two other youths. One of the attackers struck without warning, knocking his victim to the ground where he struck his head on the pavement, knocking himself unconscious. I was afraid for my own safety, but my feeling that this was very wrong outweighed that. So I crossed the street and ran directly at them, shouting that I had called the police. Luckily for all involved, they ran off.

I’m not saying this to brag: in this case, it turned out that their surprise plus natural cowardice was more than my cowardice plus stupidity; it could easily have gone either way. I am only grateful to God that at that moment I chose to do The Right Thing, rather than the easy, safe, or self-involved thing. Because I believe that that is what we as Catholics are called to do. Preach the Gospel, use words if necessary. I believe in this case that standing in defense of the jail against a murderous mob is bearing witness to the Truth of Jesus’ Gospel.

Just my two cents.

 

[majick275]

Where is there “LDS spin” in this story? I was extremely careful about the language I used to describe the incident–facts that were gleaned from the eyewitness accounts of participants both Mormon and non: no emotional language in the description of the events at all.

this tidbit:
I suspect that Joseph knew very well that he wasn’t getting out of the situation alive; I think he shot into the stair well to show those men that they weren’t going after unarmed and helpless prisoners so that they would stop shooting and think about what to do next. I think he then went to the window to deliberately draw fire away from the other two men.
which is pure speculation on your part that attempts to portray JS actions in a heroic light. furthermore you said:
*That his move to the window DID draw the fire away from the other two men and thus save their lives is incontrovertible. *
yet it IS disputed because John Taylor was shot 5 times with his pocket watch stopping one of the bullets. Willard Richards was shot 3 times AFTER JS moved to the window with one of those shots coming from outside the window.

Well, except for the ‘shot to doll rags’ part, but that was more a description of the result of the shooting than an emotional judgment of motive.

there are varying accounts of whether or not he was alive when he hit the ground but it certainly appears that he was attempting to jump out rather than just standing there “drawing fire away”.

When I did begin to analyze those events, I very clearly said “I think.” and put disclaimers in there up the wazoo.

you did but that is exactly where “spin” enters. There is reason to believe that JS initially thought the Nauvoo Legion was arriving outside to rescue him as he had ordered that. (not exactly lamb to the slaughter after all)

So. Would you care to show me where I changed any of the events from what actually happened? Where I left out anything? Added anything?
Where did I spin it, in other words?

I think i showed that.

In my own speculations of what I THINK Joseph may have been thinking, was my theory so implausible, or unsupported by the events?

I believe so

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Short answer: No.

To me, Joseph Smith was either a false prophet or mentally ill. I think of him as Charles Taze Russell crossed with Mohammed. He was a bigamist and an opponent of the Truth, who set himself up as being greater than Christ.

Which is more or less beside the point: I do not believe he deserved death. And if under any circumstances he might have, it should have been at the hands of a competent authority after due process, not at the hands of a murderous lynch mob.

I am a Christian…a Catholic, to be specific. While I oppose Smith and his legacy with every fiber of my being, the way to fight the likes of him is with the Truth, not the gun. I do not believe that the deadly force used in his killing fits the criteria of either self-defense or a just war. It was murder.

I confess that I am something of a whimp, that I could not fight my way out of a wet paper bag. Let’s face it, I am actually a fat, lazy, middle-aged chicken****. But I once witnessed four or five street youths accost two other youths. One of the attackers struck without warning, knocking his victim to the ground where he struck his head on the pavement, knocking himself unconscious. I was afraid for my own safety, but my feeling that this was very wrong outweighed that. So I crossed the street and ran directly at them, shouting that I had called the police. Luckily for all involved, they ran off.

I’m not saying this to brag: in this case, it turned out that their surprise plus natural cowardice was more than my cowardice plus stupidity; it could easily have gone either way. I am only grateful to God that at that moment I chose to do The Right Thing, rather than the easy, safe, or self-involved thing. Because I believe that that is what we as Catholics are called to do. Preach the Gospel, use words if necessary. I believe in this case that standing in defense of the jail against a murderous mob is bearing witness to the Truth of Jesus’ Gospel.

Just my two cents.

Hi,I liked your point of view,but back when their were lynchings and mob killings,the law was still asleep.It’s still asleep to alot of things, like abortion,the poor,to just name a few.I realy think it was ment to be so his church would look at him as a hero,and others could gain from it.But I do know he didnt play with a full deck,Trust me on this,Nancy

 

[Soutane]

Hi Soutane I’m not a Mormon never was never will be THANK THE LORD. Ask any Mormon on here if I have defended Joseph Smith.I do love alot of them I have met,they are innocent and are not allowed to listen to negative things against their religion. Thats why I cant understand why their on this forum,unless to spyCheck out my postings and you will see.Love ya, Nancy

Oops,sorry Nancy

 

[Jerusha]

Hi,I liked your point of view,but back when their were lynchings and mob killings,the law was still asleep.It’s still asleep to alot of things, like abortion,the poor,to just name a few.I realy think it was ment to be so his church would look at him as a hero,and others could gain from it.But I do know he didnt play with a full deck,Trust me on this,Nancy

The law was certainly asleep to such things as racism. Even Thomas Jefferson bemoaned the fact that it was nearly impossible to get a conviction for crimes against Natives.

 

[dianaiad]

this tidbit:
I suspect that Joseph knew very well that he wasn’t getting out of the situation alive; I think he shot into the stair well to show those men that they weren’t going after unarmed and helpless prisoners so that they would stop shooting and think about what to do next. I think he then went to the window to deliberately draw fire away from the other two men.
which is pure speculation on your part that attempts to portray JS actions in a heroic light.

Hence the “I think.” ****** think. Not “the church claims.” not “We believe.” Not “mormons claim,” but “I think.” I’m permitted that, and I think that the events support such a scenario far better than they support the “Joseph went out in a blazing gunfight and was a coward trying to escape out a window” scenerio so popular with the anti folks.

furthermore you said:
*That his move to the window DID draw the fire away from the other two men and thus save their lives is incontrovertible. *
yet it IS disputed because John Taylor was shot 5 times with his pocket watch stopping one of the bullets. Willard Richards was shot 3 times AFTER JS moved to the window with one of those shots coming from outside the window.

Sorry, no. Willard Richards wasn’t wounded at all. John Taylor, in his own description of the events, tells us that he (Taylor) attempted to get out of the window, and was shot five times. He didn’t see Joseph go to the window and says so. He states that “It would seem that immediately after my attempt to leap out of the window, Joseph also did the same thing, of which circumstance I have no knowledge only from information.” His second hand information also included the statement that two of the mob members died from wounds inflicted by Joseph…I think that was wishful thinking; nobody in the mob died as a result of wounds sustained there.

The information I have regarding Joseph’s actions at the window are speculative on everybody’s part; did he, or did he not, attempt to climb out of it? Taylor thinks he did because that’s what Taylor attempted.Richards assumes that this was his intent, because he writes that as Joseph 'prepared to climb out…" but how he figured that Joseph was 'preparing to climb out" is a problem, since it seems that Joseph didn’t make any of the moves one might make when attempting to climb out of a window. I’ve been in that room; the ledge he ‘jumped to,’ and stood upright on, is several inches wide. You can’t 'jump to" the ledge and expect to climb OUT…doing so leaves you completely unable to reach the latch or access the window. All it does is frame you as a target.

Tayler certainly knew that; he really did try to climb out, which is why the first bullet that hit HIM was in his thigh–which caused him to ‘stick’ and the second hit him in the chest–and blew him back into the room. That’s the one that got his watch. After he was hit three more times, he dragged himself under the bed and didn’t see anything else.

The thing is, considering that Taylor was shot several times in that attempt, it doesn’t seem likely that Joseph would figure that such an attempt would work. As well, there is no witness that claims to have seen Joseph actually attempting to climb out of the window; putting his foot over the sill, for instance, or grabbing the edges. Every report has him simply standing there, or saying “Oh Lord, My God” (which has been construed as a Masonic cry for help for some reason…)

As soon as he was shot, all the men on the stair well ran downstairs, leaving Richards and Taylor alone. Taylor dragged Richards to the other room and put a mattress over him to hide him.

My information about what happened when Joseph went to the window came, not from John Taylor’s account, but from witnesses outside and from Richard’s account.

there are varying accounts of whether or not he was alive when he hit the ground but it certainly appears that he was attempting to jump out rather than just standing there “drawing fire away”.

There certainly are such varied accounts. However, you might want to recheck the accuracy and source of them if they tell you that Richards was wounded at all, never mind ‘shot three times.’

you did but that is exactly where “spin” enters. There is reason to believe that JS initially thought the Nauvoo Legion was arriving outside to rescue him as he had ordered that. (not exactly lamb to the slaughter after all)
I think i showed that.

I believe so

Joseph ordered the Nauvoo legion to rescue him?

REALLY?

I know that Quinn thinks so, but the problem is, there is no evidence of it. No letter. Nobody mentioned it to the legion–in fact, most of them were very upset that nobody had mentioned it to them.

North, a young man to whom Joseph had given a letter, had to run quite a gauntlet to escape the mob…

Oh, and Joseph never said 'don’t worry, it’s the Nauvoo legion come to rescue me." sorry.

I wish it had been a summons to the legion and that it had gotten through.

 

[po18guy]

Where is there “LDS spin” in this story? I was extremely careful about the language I used to describe the incident–facts that were gleaned from the eyewitness accounts of participants both Mormon and non: no emotional language in the description of the events at all.

Well, except for the ‘shot to doll rags’ part, but that was more a description of the result of the shooting than an emotional judgment of motive.

When I did begin to analyze those events, I very clearly said “I think.” and put disclaimers in there up the wazoo.

So. Would you care to show me where I changed any of the events from what actually happened? Where I left out anything? Added anything?
Where did I spin it, in other words?

In my own speculations of what I THINK Joseph may have been thinking, was my theory so implausible, or unsupported by the events?

Being LDS, you have likely been exposed only to that which is entirely favorable t JS. Since the very nature of the story is adversarial in nature, the Lord alone knows the truth. Your story still bends perceptibly toward JS, ascribing only the purest of motives to a convicted civil law breaker, pedophile and polygamist. That is cutting a LOT of slack. Wouldn’t it serve the truth better to judge his final acts by the acts that went before?

What was JS in the midst of trying to accomplish? Draw back and examine what plan he had for Nauvoo, the town he intended to take over. You expect no resistance to that? You think that no treachery or deception, no fraud occurred in what amounted to a “hostile takeover” attempt on that town?

I judge all Mormon information in light of the fact that the LDS uses lies and deception in furtherance of its goals. In other words, I test everything they allege. Their words are in English, but they still speak a different language.

 

[tundramom]

From reading the accounts of the incident, from those who participated in it and witnessed it (making allowances for the bias on both sides) we know the following facts: Joseph didn’t use his gun until after Hyrum was dead and members of the mob were actually getting into the room. He went to his brother, knelt for a moment, then rose and drew his gun.He fired three shots into the mob. The gun misfired. He then went to the window and stood there. He did not attempt to climb out of it. He simply stood there…and made an appeal for aid, at which point he was shot twice, fell partway out of the window, then the rest of the way. He was then propped against the house and used as target practice.

Have you actually ever been to the site of the old jail at Carthage Diana? Has the story of the supposed “facts” changed since 1985? I was a practicing Mormon at that time and visited there… I remember specifically the “official” story back then sounds nothing what you’re describing here. The older gentleman who was the missionary there read from a looseleaf binder describing what happened and he was particularly focused on JS’s protection of his companions by using his gun and how he was shot out the window from the doorway in the room… then landed next to the well outside… Nothing was said about being propped up against the house… That must be something new.

All firing into the room from the stair rail ceased when Joseph fired his gun at them. All remaining gunfire was concentrated on the window where Joseph was standing.

These are facts, checked and doublechecked by both the men inside and outside the building.

So your source is Dallin Oaks, eh? If he’s not an unbiased historian and simply one of the GAs… well… his “word” doesn’t mean much when speaking just “facts”.

Now we don’t know what went on in Joseph’s mind, but his actions certainly support the idea that he was attempting to save the lives of the other men in the room, and succeeded at the cost of his own.

We only know what he actually did.

Your scenario certainly supports that, but again… the source is biased. Also, from forensic investigation over 150 years later one cannot possibly tell the timing of the gunfire. In my 1985 tour we were told that Joseph fired first!

As for me, I remain a bit of a maverick. I don’t wish that Joseph had not used the gun.

I wish he had been better armed.

Are you trying to steal a campaign slogan or what?

My personal tour of Carthage doesn’t gel with your carefully worded re-telling by a biased GA.

in Christ
Steph

 

[majick275]

Hence the “I think.” ****** think. Not “the church claims.” not “We believe.” Not “mormons claim,” but “I think.” I’m permitted that, and I think that the events support such a scenario far better than they support the “Joseph went out in a blazing gunfight and was a coward trying to escape out a window” scenerio so popular with the anti folks.

well if you want to say it’s YOUR spin okay bit is the “faith promoting version”. you are using only “revised” mormon sources or sources that quote from those if you believe this version.

Sorry, no. Willard Richards wasn’t wounded at all. John Taylor, in his own description of the events, tells us that he (Taylor) attempted to get out of the window, and was shot five times. He didn’t see Joseph go to the window and says so. He states that “It would seem that immediately after my attempt to leap out of the window, Joseph also did the same thing, of which circumstance I have no knowledge only from information.” His second hand information also included the statement that two of the mob members died from wounds inflicted by Joseph…I think that was wishful thinking; nobody in the mob died as a result of wounds sustained there.

i am going to be a bit lazy here but i think the sources here will stand for verification:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

and while admittedly still being “lazy” i give you a plausible account of Taylor and willards “embellishing” their stories. (much like paul dunn):

geocities.com/eleazarbenyair/carthageconspiracy-99.htm

don’t focus on the site or the site creator but rather the sources they cite and the analysis. ( i know it’s hard because this writer is "wierd"to say the least but just ask the same questions as you read it)

The information I have regarding Joseph’s actions at the window are speculative on everybody’s part; did he, or did he not, attempt to climb out of it? Taylor thinks he did because that’s what Taylor attempted.Richards assumes that this was his intent, because he writes that as Joseph 'prepared to climb out…" but how he figured that Joseph was 'preparing to climb out" is a problem, since it seems that Joseph didn’t make any of the moves one might make when attempting to climb out of a window. I’ve been in that room; the ledge he ‘jumped to,’ and stood upright on, is several inches wide. You can’t 'jump to" the ledge and expect to climb OUT…doing so leaves you completely unable to reach the latch or access the window. All it does is frame you as a target.

in any case we have nor reason to believe that JS “drew fire away” from anyone else or saved lives.

Tayler certainly knew that; he really did try to climb out, which is why the first bullet that hit HIM was in his thigh–which caused him to ‘stick’ and the second hit him in the chest–and blew him back into the room. That’s the one that got his watch. After he was hit three more times, he dragged himself under the bed and didn’t see anything else.

well we certainly can’t know how they interpreted the situation at the time but it seems they may have thought jumping out the window gave a better chance of escape than staying in the cell.

The thing is, considering that Taylor was shot several times in that attempt, it doesn’t seem likely that Joseph would figure that such an attempt would work. As well, there is no witness that claims to have seen Joseph actually attempting to climb out of the window; putting his foot over the sill, for instance, or grabbing the edges. Every report has him simply standing there, or saying “Oh Lord, My God” (which has been construed as a Masonic cry for help for some reason…)

i would contest that. it’s true that he COULD have fallen out the window but they all seemed of the mind that the window was worth attempting.

As soon as he was shot, all the men on the stair well ran downstairs, leaving Richards and Taylor alone. Taylor dragged Richards to the other room and put a mattress over him to hide him.

you mean the other way around of course

My information about what happened when Joseph went to the window came, not from John Taylor’s account, but from witnesses outside and from Richard’s account.

and there are other witnesses that believe otherwise as well some factual reason to question their stories.

There certainly are such varied accounts. However, you might want to recheck the accuracy and source of them if they tell you that Richards was wounded at all, never mind ‘shot three times.’

fair enough but you might look to your own sources.

Joseph ordered the Nauvoo legion to rescue him?

REALLY?

yes

I know that Quinn thinks so, but the problem is, there is no evidence of it. No letter. Nobody mentioned it to the legion–in fact, most of them were very upset that nobody had mentioned it to them.

quinn isn’t the only one and which members of the legion did you speak to?

North, a young man to whom Joseph had given a letter, had to run quite a gauntlet to escape the mob…

Oh, and Joseph never said 'don’t worry, it’s the Nauvoo legion come to rescue me." sorry.

I wish it had been a summons to the legion and that it had gotten through.

yet we have this:
“JOURNAL OF ALLEN JOSEPH STOUT,” Journal for Period 1815-1848, Published by the Book of Abraham Project at Brigham Young University, boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/AStout.html

absolute proof? no but certainly we cannot say there is NO evidence to support that theory.

 

[dianaiad]

Have you actually ever been to the site of the old jail at Carthage Diana?

Yep, in the summer of 2006.

Has the story of the supposed “facts” changed since 1985? I was a practicing Mormon at that time and visited there… I remember specifically the “official” story back then sounds nothing what you’re describing here. The older gentleman who was the missionary there read from a looseleaf binder describing what happened and he was particularly focused on JS’s protection of his companions by using his gun and how he was shot out the window from the doorway in the room… then landed next to the well outside… Nothing was said about being propped up against the house… That must be something new.

Not new. This information has been around for a long time.

So your source is Dallin Oaks, eh? If he’s not an unbiased historian and simply one of the GAs… well… his “word” doesn’t mean much when speaking just “facts”.

so you missed the long list of qualifications that make him an appropriate person to write of this trial, I suppose? He wrote this as an examination of a legal trial, submitted it for peer review, and it was rigorously examined and extensively reviewed. Nobody else has a problem with a State Supreme Court Justice, Law Professor, University Dean and well respected attorney writing such a book. Indeed, the only people who DO have such a problem only have his religion against him.

Which of course is a rather bigoted attitude to take, don’t you think?

I mean, you might have a point if he were NOT an attorney, Supreme Court justice, Law professor and highly respected in his field, and if any of those reviews of that book (the reviewers had to know what religion the man was, for crying out loud; he was the Dean of BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY) criticized him for bias due to his religion. However, he is, and nobody did.

So for you to do so is rather, well…straw grasping.

Your scenario certainly supports that, but again… the source is biased. Also, from forensic investigation over 150 years later one cannot possibly tell the timing of the gunfire. In my 1985 tour we were told that Joseph fired first!

I think perhaps you are remembering inaccurately? Nobody has ever claimed that Joseph fired first. Every account of the incident has Hyrum down and dead before Joseph fired a shot.

Are you trying to steal a campaign slogan or what?

My personal tour of Carthage doesn’t gel with your carefully worded re-telling by a biased GA.

in Christ
Steph

huh? Dallin Oaks wrote a book about the trial of the men accused of murdering Joseph and Hyrum, and focused upon the legal maneuvering that got men–very obviously guilty men–(one of the reasons three of them were arrested was because they were the guys who were wounded in the attack) not only acquitted, but gifted with new suits.

None of my information regarding the shooting itself came from that source. All of it has come from eyewitness accounts of men who were there, either inside or outside the jail.

Many of the men who were members of the mob were very proud of it, and bragged about it all their lives.

 

[tundramom]

Are you a life-long member, dianiad? Could you please give us what your “eyewitness” sources are from and the names of those people?

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

well if you want to say it’s YOUR spin okay bit is the “faith promoting version”. you are using only “revised” mormon sources or sources that quote from those if you believe this version.

i am going to be a bit lazy here but i think the sources here will stand for verification:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

Yep, that’s lazy all right; there is nothing there.

and while admittedly still being “lazy” i give you a plausible account of Taylor and willards “embellishing” their stories. (much like paul dunn):

geocities.com/eleazarbenyair/carthageconspiracy-99.htm

don’t focus on the site or the site creator but rather the sources they cite and the analysis. ( i know it’s hard because this writer is "wierd"to say the least but just ask the same questions as you read it)

You have GOT to be kidding! Who IS this guy???

in any case we have nor reason to believe that JS “drew fire away” from anyone else or saved lives.

We don’t?

How about the fact that the shooting stopped after Joseph fell out of the window, so that both Richards and Taylor lived? It’s hard to say that Joseph’s presence at the window–and being shot while there–didn’t draw fire away from the other two and save their lives when, well…it did. Something about the mob stopping shooting, and leaving so that Richards could drag Taylor out of the room gives that one away.

well we certainly can’t know how they interpreted the situation at the time but it seems they may have thought jumping out the window gave a better chance of escape than staying in the cell.

I can see that with Taylor. It makes no sense for Joseph; after all, Richards was over by the door battling away with his walking stick, not being shot–and there was Taylor under the bed, having just been shot FIVE TIMES because he tried to get out of the window. Now, I don’t know about you, but if you had just seen your friend shot to pieces for trying to escape, and you saw 200 men aiming their guns at you through the window, would YOU consider that escaping that way was the brightest idea in the world?

I know that you might think that Joseph was a lot of things, but I’ve never heard anybody describe him as particularly stupid, nor that he lost his head in a crisis situation.

It was JUST possible that if they could have held the door, that they might have survived long enough for someone to come to their senses. There was no way anyone would escape through the window. I’ve been in that room and looked out that window.

Not a chance.

i would contest that. it’s true that he COULD have fallen out the window but they all seemed of the mind that the window was worth attempting.

ONE thought it was worth attempting. He was shot a lot in the attempt.

you mean the other way around of course (regarding switching Taylor and Richards)

(sigh) it’s been a long day. Of course.

and there are other witnesses that believe otherwise as well some factual reason to question their stories.

Where?

fair enough but you might look to your own sources.

I have. I have looked at as many as I could find, both Mormon and non–and have simply attempted to reconstruct the actual movements of the men as best as I could. Those descriptions that were obviously weird, with discrepancies that couldn’t be reconciled with anybody else, I tossed. I only kept the stuff that was agreed upon by most of the witnesses.

Here’s the thing: I don’t care whether Joseph shot one gun or two guns or had an AK-47. I don’t care whether he tried climbing out the window or stood there waving and shouting ‘shoot at me!!’

I don’t care whether he asked for help or sent for the militia or didn’t, or whether he drank wine the night before, or sang hymns, or danced a jig on the bed. I don’t insist that he have awaited his murder with serene zenlike acceptance. I’m glad he fought back.

There is nothing he could have done, or not done, that would make his enemies admire him or call him a martyr. There is nothing that they can do to him or his reputation that lessens the atrocity OF that murder, because the men who attacked that jail brought between 150 to 300 men to attack and kill what they thought were four unarmed prisoners.

That’s murder. There is no justification, and no action on the part of Joseph or the other prisoners that would make it acceptable.

Given that attitude on my part, I think that I am about as objective a researcher as it’s possible to get; I don’t give a hoot what I find. I’m not out to justify his killing and thus make him look bad, and there isn’t anything I could find out about that day that would hurt him in my book, so I may as well just get the facts.

If, having looked at the timeline and events of the day, I have come to the conclusion that he was trying to protect Richards and Taylor, having given up all hope of his own survival–well, the events support that.

yes
quinn isn’t the only one and which members of the legion did you speak to?
yet we have this:
“JOURNAL OF ALLEN JOSEPH STOUT,” Journal for Period 1815-1848, Published by the Book of Abraham Project at Brigham Young University, boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/AStout.html

absolute proof? no but certainly we cannot say there is NO evidence to support that theory.

 

[dianaiad]

Are you a life-long member, dianiad? Could you please give us what your “eyewitness” sources are from and the names of those people?

in Christ
Steph

I don’t have all of them; I just moved and most of my stuff is in boxes. However, here is a partial list:

Taylor and Richards, of course.
Thomas Sharp, William Grover, Levi Williams and Mark Aldritch, four of the eight men who were indicted and tried for their participation;

I’m not certain, but I think I have something from Captain Smith, the captain of the Carthage Greys, (not much from him, if I remember right)

There is William Daniels–and Governor Ford, who was not there, of course, but whose account states that he got HIS stuff from eyewitnesses (definitely not Mormon)

I think that’s about it…and I’m not going into the garage to get the box.

Most of the rest are either second hand, or first hand disguised as second hand (or vice versa) and more than a little–colorful–biased in one direction or the other; if one account has Joseph killing ten men with one bullet and the wrath of God chasing the mob away before it could mutilate his body, then another has him cowering in the window offering to let the mob kill the other prisoners and his family if they will only let him live.

I think we can safely discount both of the above accounts, don’t you?

Diana–and yes, I am a life long Mormon. Can’t say I’m proud of it–wasn’t my doing, after all, but I’m not ashamed of it, either.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello, I just wanted to know if you knew that an archeologist found DNA evidence that the Lamanites were not the native american indians like Smith said? He is a Mormon and two others that are archeologists at BYU also were disapointed and withdrew the familys from the church because of Smiths false statements and they are not the decendents of Myans or mexicans,They told the truth on tv and now the church wants to xcomunicate them,for the truth!Whats up with that? love you Nanccy :console: What I tell you is the truth in Jesus Name.

 

[dianaiad]

Hello, I just wanted to know if you knew that an archeologist found DNA evidence that the Lamanites were not the native american indians like Smith said? He is a Mormon and two others that are archeologists at BYU also were disapointed and withdrew the familys from the church because of Smiths false statements and they are not the decendents of Myans or mexicans,They told the truth on tv and now the church wants to xcomunicate them,for the truth!Whats up with that? love you Nanccy :console: What I tell you is the truth in Jesus Name.

(sigh)

 

[Ghoti]

Isn’t all of this back-and-forthing begging the original question: Would you as a Catholic kill Joseph Smith?

Although I find the question odd – sort of, Would you, as a Mormon, kill the Pope?

I don’t see what any of this beeswax about whether Smith shot first, fell/jumped out the window, called out to the Masons, was actually born in Kenya, whatever, has to do with whether or not we as Catholics would have participated in his death.

I may be wrong – I often are – but I think this thread is well and truly derailed.

Oh, and no, I wouldn’t kill Joseph Smith. I’d just wish he’d’ve shut up and joined the Real Church.

 

[majick275]

Yep, that’s lazy all right; there is nothing there.

You have GOT to be kidding! Who IS this guy???

We don’t?

How about the fact that the shooting stopped after Joseph fell out of the window, so that both Richards and Taylor lived? It’s hard to say that Joseph’s presence at the window–and being shot while there–didn’t draw fire away from the other two and save their lives when, well…it did. Something about the mob stopping shooting, and leaving so that Richards could drag Taylor out of the room gives that one away.

I can see that with Taylor. It makes no sense for Joseph; after all, Richards was over by the door battling away with his walking stick, not being shot–and there was Taylor under the bed, having just been shot FIVE TIMES because he tried to get out of the window. Now, I don’t know about you, but if you had just seen your friend shot to pieces for trying to escape, and you saw 200 men aiming their guns at you through the window, would YOU consider that escaping that way was the brightest idea in the world?

I know that you might think that Joseph was a lot of things, but I’ve never heard anybody describe him as particularly stupid, nor that he lost his head in a crisis situation.

It was JUST possible that if they could have held the door, that they might have survived long enough for someone to come to their senses. There was no way anyone would escape through the window. I’ve been in that room and looked out that window.

Not a chance.

ONE thought it was worth attempting. He was shot a lot in the attempt.

(sigh) it’s been a long day. Of course.

Where?

I have. I have looked at as many as I could find, both Mormon and non–and have simply attempted to reconstruct the actual movements of the men as best as I could. Those descriptions that were obviously weird, with discrepancies that couldn’t be reconciled with anybody else, I tossed. I only kept the stuff that was agreed upon by most of the witnesses.

Here’s the thing: I don’t care whether Joseph shot one gun or two guns or had an AK-47. I don’t care whether he tried climbing out the window or stood there waving and shouting ‘shoot at me!!’

I don’t care whether he asked for help or sent for the militia or didn’t, or whether he drank wine the night before, or sang hymns, or danced a jig on the bed. I don’t insist that he have awaited his murder with serene zenlike acceptance. I’m glad he fought back.

There is nothing he could have done, or not done, that would make his enemies admire him or call him a martyr. There is nothing that they can do to him or his reputation that lessens the atrocity OF that murder, because the men who attacked that jail brought between 150 to 300 men to attack and kill what they thought were four unarmed prisoners.

That’s murder. There is no justification, and no action on the part of Joseph or the other prisoners that would make it acceptable.

Given that attitude on my part, I think that I am about as objective a researcher as it’s possible to get; I don’t give a hoot what I find. I’m not out to justify his killing and thus make him look bad, and there isn’t anything I could find out about that day that would hurt him in my book, so I may as well just get the facts.

If, having looked at the timeline and events of the day, I have come to the conclusion that he was trying to protect Richards and Taylor, having given up all hope of his own survival–well, the events support that.

yes
quinn isn’t the only one and which members of the legion did you speak to?
yet we have this:
“JOURNAL OF ALLEN JOSEPH STOUT,” Journal for Period 1815-1848, Published by the Book of Abraham Project at Brigham Young University, boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/AStout.html

absolute proof? no but certainly we cannot say there is NO evidence to support that theory.

so to sum up, you only accept the faith promoting version written by the LDS church long after the fact.

 

[Lujack]

so to sum up, you only accept the faith promoting version written by the LDS church long after the fact.

He literally just told you that the sources he was using were all primary sources, or peer-reviewed secondary sources, and you ignored it.

 

[po18guy]

Oh, and no, I wouldn’t kill Joseph Smith. I’d just wish he’d’ve shut up and joined the Real Church.

Amen!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

If Joseph Smith were alive today, preaching the restored gospel, establishing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, would you kill him? Please assume that you will not be punished by the law, as those who did kill him were not punished.

No. I wouldn’t kill the Dahli Lama either.

Peace,
-Robert