Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

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Random guy gets irreparably character assassinated while the details of what happened are just beginning to be collected. The spiritual child of the Roman Coliseum lives on in tabloids & social media.

I’m closing this thread, and by the grace of merciful God, I’ll resist the temptation to open it up again.
 
I’m sorry what? Which shops sell squirrel now? :confused:

The only people in the anglosphere that are really known for eating squirrels are American hillbillies and Bear Grylls. I think you’d probably be generally shunned for it in the UK 😃
I personally would not eat the things, but I know someone who does and can apparently buy them in her local (English) butcher. She is not shunned, and is actually quite posh.
 
I personally would not eat the things, but I know someone who does and can apparently buy them in her local (English) butcher. She is not shunned, and is actually quite posh.
I had a bit of squirrel in the old days when I had friends who were hunters. It was not bad, but I wouldn’t pay a premium over chicken for it.
 
Legal possibly but probably not. But is it moral?
When an act is not in itself wrong (big-game hunting is not), legality does indeed strongly affect the morality of the action.

As to another’s remark that Cecil’s Cubs would be killed by the new alpha: As that would happen whenever a large male was killed, that, in itself, would not make the “taking” wrong.

Like it or not, hunting is not wrong, and countries have a right to use their wild-animal resources as they see fit. Hunters are in fact some of the strongest conservationists. The moral errors committed with e.g. the buffalo of NA, have been learned from.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Legal possibly but probably not. But is it moral?
Wait, you’re the one who a few pages back said you wouldn’t mind seeing the dentist killed, correct? That takes away any credibility you have in this matter, especially on morality. A human’s life will always be worth more than a lion’s, regardless of how many or few there are.

That’s what is shocking to me about this whole story, the fact that so many people are calling for this man, this human being, to be killed.
 
Wait, you’re the one who a few pages back said you wouldn’t mind seeing the dentist killed, correct? That takes away any credibility you have in this matter, especially on morality. A human’s life will always be worth more than a lion’s, regardless of how many or few there are.

That’s what is shocking to me about this whole story, the fact that so many people are calling for this man, this human being, to be killed.
But in no way a surprise, sadly.

A year or so back, a woman in GB who threw a cat in a wheelie bin likewise received death threats, although that time, no animal had even been killed.

It is no surprise to me that as the world has pressed toward the glorification of animal life (apes, Dolphins, etc), the season has permanently opened on the human being.

ICXC NIKA
 
Wait, you’re the one who a few pages back said you wouldn’t mind seeing the dentist killed, correct? That takes away any credibility you have in this matter, especially on morality. A human’s life will always be worth more than a lion’s, regardless of how many or few there are.

That’s what is shocking to me about this whole story, the fact that so many people are calling for this man, this human being, to be killed.
We don’t really do terribly well on the human life being worth more business though - Stalin’s “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic” comes to mind.

On the whole, human beings are pretty good at hand-wringing about the fate of both animals and people.
 
Wait, you’re the one who a few pages back said you wouldn’t mind seeing the dentist killed, correct? That takes away any credibility you have in this matter, especially on morality. A human’s life will always be worth more than a lion’s, regardless of how many or few there are.

That’s what is shocking to me about this whole story, the fact that so many people are calling for this man, this human being, to be killed.
I’m merely pointing out that we fail to apply logic or reason to this argument. Hunting is a pastime for people who (presumably) enjoy the act of witnessing something die at their own hands. It’s not illegal within parameters. This odious man killed a protected animal, he has done it before (in between sexually harassing women apparently) he has written his own financial suicide note I hope. And I hope that having done so he no longer has the money to go to far flung parts of the world to slaughter things
 
I’m merely pointing out that we fail to apply logic or reason to this argument. Hunting is a pastime for people who (presumably) enjoy the act of witnessing something die at their own hands. It’s not illegal within parameters. This odious man killed a protected animal, he has done it before (in between sexually harassing women apparently) he has written his own financial suicide note I hope. And I hope that having done so he no longer has the money to go to far flung parts of the world to slaughter things
No, hunting is an activity for those who enjoy matching their stamina, skill and reflexes against the superior senses and endurance of a wild animal; of facing the challenge of nature hand-to-hand, as our first human ancestors did to survive.

It won’t make sense to everybody; it is not something I do or really relate to, but neither is Himalayan climbing or downhill skiing.

Yes, the animal dies, but hopefully a clean death, and things die in nature every day.

ICXC NIKA
 
Hunting is a pastime for people who (presumably) enjoy the act of witnessing something die at their own hands.
“Something” is hopelessly imprecise and, as GEddie notes, it is not the focus of hunting. And “witnessing something die at their own hands” is a peculiar way of saying to kill.

Hunting is killing wild animals for pleasure. Eating what one kills is part of that experience but it is not essential. Similarly the act of killing itself (if there were an equivalent to catch and release in hunting I’m sure it would be popular).

Now it’s probably unreasonable to expect people who have never hunted to understand it but I don’t think it’s asking too much to expect people to understand the difference between human beings, pets, domesticated animals, and wild animals.

Hunting is a pastime for people who understand these distinctions.
 
No, hunting is an activity for those who enjoy matching their stamina, skill and reflexes against the superior senses and endurance of a wild animal; of facing the challenge of nature hand-to-hand, as our first human ancestors did to survive.

It won’t make sense to everybody; it is not something I do or really relate to, but neither is Himalayan climbing or downhill skiing.

Yes, the animal dies, but hopefully a clean death, and things die in nature every day.

ICXC NIKA
I think for a Catholic, maybe one’s “enjoyment” in this context needs to be balanced with what the catechism says about killing animals

**Respect for the integrity of creation **

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

2416 **Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. **

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
 
I think for a Catholic, maybe one’s “enjoyment” in this context needs to be balanced with what the catechism says about killing animals

**Respect for the integrity of creation **

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

2416 **Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. **

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
Thank you for this. The thinking Catholic’s response. 😉

I must say I still struggle with a basic paradox here - to love what is good and noble - to love man. Palmer and his defenders make it really hard to buy the value/dignity of man argument. Bad PR. Loving that is tough. Fearing it not so much. Seriously, I do hope it’s true that man has more dignity than animals (i.e. it’s superficial and stupid to care more for the lion than Palmer), but for the life of me I don’t see it. I hear people proselytizing about man’s God given dignity as a precept of their religion - forcefully, angrily and cruelly. If that is a reflection of God…he is like something out of Kafka, not unlike Palmer come to think of it. Atheism is looking pretty good.
 
Palmer and his defenders make it really hard to buy the value/dignity of man argument. Bad PR. Loving that is tough. Fearing it not so much. Seriously, I do hope it’s true that man has more dignity than animals (i.e. it’s superficial and stupid to care more for the lion than Palmer), but for the life of me I don’t see it. I hear people proselytizing about man’s God given dignity as a precept of their religion - forcefully, angrily and cruelly. If that is a reflection of God…he is like something out of Kafka, not unlike Palmer come to think of it. Atheism is looking pretty good.
Seriously?! I think you’ve been watching too much Disney.
 
Just an opinion which I don’t think meets the spirit of what the catechism says at all!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. Those attacking the dentist here have shown little interest in the facts.
 
Jesus probably fished for the fish he was cooking over a charcoal fire in John 21:9. He baited a hook (probably causing suffering for the worm or bait fish), pulled in a few fish, took a knife, cut open their bellies and pulled out their innards, scraped the scales off while the fish wriggled around, and then threw the flesh in a pan to roast it. He probably didn’t enjoy the gutting, but that was part of fishing. He probably smiled when he saw his cork go under the water because his patience in waiting for fish to bite was rewarded. He probably smiled when he “killed” the plants to get the seasoning for the fish. He probably smiled when he ate the fish flesh because it tasted good. Jesus never sinned, nor was there any moral flaw in Him. He wasn’t a vegetarian. He recruited men to his apostles who killed animals and probably enjoyed their work of hunting fish. These guys became saints and didn’t have to renounce their hunting as pathological.

This colleague of mine’s actions aside, the questions here are **really **about hunting in general and man’s dominion over the animals of the earth as divinely instituted by God (Gen 1:28). The courts will decide if this man should be fined. However, the mass media has already crucified this man before all the evidence is out. Why? It’s precisely because they want to use this episode to shape public opinion against hunting in general and continue to promote the elevation of animals to the dignity of humans. Why? Because once man and animals are seen as being on equal footing, then it is no big leap of reason to say that man should not be governed by morality but rather by instinct alone. If our animal comrades are only governed by instinct, then so should we. A lion kills a cub - it’s just its natural instinct. It has no morality. That cub does not reflect on sentimental things before it is killed. There is no animal that seeks to “get right with God” as it staggers away from a successful bowshot. Why? Animals don’t have souls. Animals aren’t like humans. Animals were not redeemed with the blood of Christ. Animals do not have the same dignity as men. However, if we buy into the “animals are just humans with funny faces” argument, we deny the unique dignity of man. Once we are governed by instinct alone, there is no sin because there is no will nor any soul. Once there is no soul, there is no need for Christ to have redeemed us.

These are basic truths that need to be reiterated. Why? Because the world is trying to draw us away from God’s plan for us. They do it under the guise of compassion when, in reality, they are trying to undermine true religion.

We need to recognize that we are not mere animals. We are above them. One way that manifests itself is that we hunt and eat them. Hunting, by its nature, takes skill and training. Acquiring a skill takes time and dedication. Seeing a successful hunt is the end result of a lot of discipline, time and money. The kill of the animal is not pretty. No hunter rejoices in the suffering of the animal. They rejoice in the success of their training. The killing of an animal is not morally bad in and of itself. Jesus did this. The killing of animals for trophies is not a grave sin in and of itself. There may be a problem if a person enjoys gore and suffering, but very few hunters, including myself, love seeing animals suffer. In fact, we try to put the animal out of its misery as fast as possible. It’s just not part of the hunter mentality. Very few love gutting animals, very few love seeing baby animals “orphaned”. These things remind us of our own mortality and they are sobering. People who don’t hunt experience the same sobering feelings when death is presented, but they draw an erroneous conclusion when they see hunters smiling over their kills. They automatically assume it is a smile regarding the suffering. It is not.
 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. Those attacking the dentist here have shown little interest in the facts.
As indeed have many of those defending the dentist. Which doesn’t surprise me on an American forum, frankly.
 
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