Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread is becoming too hostile. Everyone please follow these guidelines:

All posts are to be charitable
Discuss the issues, not each other
If you claim to be stating Church doctrine, provide a link to a doctrinal document otherwise someone may not agree it is a doctrine of the Church

In all cases stay charitable.

 

[St_Pancake]

I’m a theologian. I know why Jesus went to the Cross.

Don’t try to twist my words. I never once said I “hated” Palmer. I don’t. However, I DO hate what he did, and reportedly, he is a sexual molester (of young human women) as well. While I don’t hate Palmer and hope he repents, I DO hope he is held accountable for his misdeeds, just as I hope the jury finds the Cincinnati policeman guilty of killing an unarmed African-American man who posed no threat to him.

People are rude, thoughtless, mean, petty, jealous, and a whole host of other things awful. They take delight in seeing others suffer. Animals don’t do that. As I said, I don’t “hate” Palmer. I hope he repents and sees the terrible error of his ways, but I have doubts that will ever happen.

I don’t need to “flee” to God in prayer. I already pray more than once daily. It’s people like Palmer who need to “flee” to God in prayer, and it’s people like Palmer who are probably arguing that Christ is a “myth” or a “hallucination” of the apostles. Christ himself rebuked when necessary. Palmer needs exactly what he’s getting.

You said you hoped he ended up in prison and you seem to take delight in all of his troubles. I wouldn’t want you around my family.

I’m not sure you are what you think you are.

 

[St_Pancake]

I agree with you, totally, 100%. To be Palmer would be awful, not just now because his life and career are ruined by his own hand, but even before. He seems a very unhappy man. I should pity him, but I find that difficult to do.

That seems quite the leap to think that his career and his life is over. He can move somewhere else and practice dentistry and you have no idea the quality of his life.

Additionally, I doubt he needs or even cares about your pity. Save that for yourself.

 

[St_Pancake]

I think a lot of people feel this way. I don’t approve of the real vengeance though - the bloodlust in pursuit of him. I am ok with horror, shaming, etc. and I think that is appropriate, as long as you don’t cross the same line he crossed. What is the point of that. He should be extradited and faces charges in Zimbabwe.

How noble of you to only condone “horror, shaming” of the man. You’re a prince among men.

 

[St_Pancake]

Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION, not just humankind:

“The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of his Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul:

“God wanted all fullness to be found in him, and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

ALL OF CREATION includes Cecil.

If this was a covenant with God, what was the animals responsibility in the covenant? Where do animals go to confession? Should you go an baptize the animals at the zoo in the name of the trinity?

 

[LongingSoul]

We’ve been over this. Nobody hunts for food. And hunting for pleasure is older than civiliation.

Wildlife managementy requires killing wild animals. Not just the tasty ones but also the destructive and dangerous ones.

It is truly abnormal to insist, as you do, that there is something noble about killing animals for food but not for wildlife management.

Nor does it matter, as you claim, that the dentist is uninterested in wildlife management, though you offer no evidence for this claim. It is sufficient that he enjoys killing wild animals for sport because that means that those manage wildlife can charge people like him for the privalige of doing what needs to be done anyway. All that is required is that he obey the law and that is the only legitimate issue here.

The alternative to having hunters who enjoy hunting is to pay someone to do the same thing.

That’s, to use a word, is insane.

I haven’t read the whole thread yet but is there a suggestion that lions in Africa need culling? In Australia kangaroos are the subject of culling even though they are our national symbol, so people often get upset by it. The thing is that when you’ve got a wildlife management situation that involves an activity that’s traditionally exploited by the inhumane such as this, you have to clearly define the noble from those who are out to exploit the laws. The whole ecology depends on it. This guy has probably got away with exploiting national laws for years and feels above it now.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Professors in a university’s religious studies department are usually theologians, and religious leaders are usually considered to be theologians.
I would say that calling oneself a theologian without being published or holding a chair at a major university (you self-identify as a student) does not qualify one for the statement “I am a theologian”. While you might be well read, and also in school, I would also say that even children understand that animals need no redemption.

Let’s get back to topic.
The dentist killed a lion he clearly had no business hunting. Now people feel good about hunting him. The whole thing is tragic, on all sides.

I don’t bother to update my profile here every time my life changes. I teach theology at a Roman Catholic university. I now have two degrees in theology and one in psychology. I am considered a theologian by other theologians. I’ve worked in Vatican City, alongside the very best. God, himself, told us he redeemed all creation.

The people I teach understand that Adam’s sin brought sin and corruption into the entire world. The entire world needed redeemed and restored to God. I didn’t sin in the garden, either, and would not have, but I inherited that sin. Adam, by his sin, caused the entire world to need redemption. I discussed this with a colleague today, who is responsible for the entire theological program at our university, and I was told that yes, this is right, and furthermore, it is Bible Study 101. Although he’s Anglican, you and sarah might consider reading NT Wright’s book Justification. It explains, in layman’s terms, why the entire world needed redeemed.

Here is an article that explains WHY Christ redeemed ALL the world:

jamesallman.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/jesus-blood-redeems-the-creation-%E2%80%94-colossians-1-20-2/

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That seems quite the leap to think that his career and his life is over. He can move somewhere else and practice dentistry and you have no idea the quality of his life.

Additionally, I doubt he needs or even cares about your pity. Save that for yourself.

What’s with your “I’m so much better than you!” stance? You’re no better than I am, I’m no better than you. Geez, get off your high horse or stay on and fall. It’s a long way down.

Yes, I DO think he should go to a Zimbabwe prison, and I’m not the only one on this thread who does. He killed a protected animal and removed its GPS tracking collar.

People know his face, name changes are public records. No one will want to hire him. No state will want him practicing in their area. No one will ever want to be his patient.

Self-pity isn’t my mode of being, and I am richly blessed. I have nothing to pity myself for.

 

[St_Pancake]

Sarah, do you think you know more than the Bible or St. Paul? Are you putting yourself above God?

Christ died to redeem ALL OF CREATION. Period.

Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION, not just humankind:

“The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of his Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul:

“God wanted all fullness to be found in him, and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

ALL OF CREATION includes Cecil.

That’s inconsistent with the rest of the bible making me think it’s nonsense.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That’s inconsistent with the rest of the bible making me think it’s nonsense.

jamesallman.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/jesus-blood-redeems-the-creation-%E2%80%94-colossians-1-20-2/

It’s IN the Bible! Colossians 1:20. How can something IN the Bible be inconsistent WITH the Bible?

From the linked article:

*Paul addresses the idea in Romans 8. Not only did mankind fall because of sin. The realm the race was to rule fell into corruption, too (Rom 8.20-21). So, when God restores the human race, the creation will enter the freedom of its rulers. Then the redemptive work of Christ serves to redeem all creation. *

This is the LAST post of yours I read, so any more posting to me is wasting your time. I’m not going to waste mine answering questions elementary school kids know.

Killing a PROTECTED lion and removing its GPS tracker is a CRIME. I do believe criminals should serve time for their crimes. I believe Palmer should serve his years in a Zimbabwean jail if convicted. I believe PP should have its federal funding cut off as is being discussed.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I haven’t read the whole thread yet but is there a suggestion that lions in Africa need culling?

That is standard wildlife management practice. What keeps lion populations in check? Only two things: availability of prey and hunting by man.

In Australia kangaroos are the subject of culling even though they are our national symbol, so people often get upset by it. The thing is that when you’ve got a wildlife management situation that involves an activity that’s traditionally exploited by the inhumane such as this, you have to clearly define the noble from those who are out to exploit the laws. The whole ecology depends on it. This guy has probably got away with exploiting national laws for years and feels above it now.

For wildlife management to work, including culling by hunting, the rules must be followed. I don’t hear anyone defending poaching here.

But some are trying to fudge the distinction between poaching and hunting in general (or trophy hunting in general). It is there that the dispute really lies.

Yeah, people get upset when they don’t know the facts. Some people are still upset even after being presented with the facts.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That is standard wildlife management practice. What keeps lion populations in check? Only two things: availability of prey and hunting by man.

For wildlife management to work, including culling by hunting, the rules must be followed. I don’t hear anyone defending poaching here.

But some are trying to fudge the distinction between poaching and hunting in general (or trophy hunting in general). It is there that the dispute really lies.

Yeah, people get upset when they don’t know the facts. Some people are still upset even after being presented with the facts.

Why would we defend poaching here, Bubba? I don’t defend poaching anywhere. I’m not a fan of “trophy” hunting, and I don’t think hunting is a “sport,” but I think Palmer should stand trial in Zimbabwe. If convicted, I think he should serve his time. If found not guilty, I will accept that verdict.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Why would we defend poaching here, Bubba? I don’t defend poaching anywhere. I’m not a fan of “trophy” hunting, and I don’t think hunting is a “sport,” but I think Palmer should stand trial in Zimbabwe. If convicted, I think he should serve his time. If found not guilty, I will accept that verdict.

I’m glad to hear you would accept the verdict. I hope you would also accept Zimbabwe’s determnation not to prosecute were that the case. I’m skeptical that most of the rest of the mob will accept anything less than a hanging because they do not distinguish between poaching and trophy hunting.

The only thing working in Palmer’s favor is the fickleness of the mob. He’ll have to lay low until the mob moves on to another “moral outrage”.

 

[adrift]

jamesallman.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/jesus-blood-redeems-the-creation-%E2%80%94-colossians-1-20-2/

James Allaman is a Baptist why would I look to him for Catholic theology?

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t bother to update my profile here every time my life changes. I teach theology at a Roman Catholic university. I now have two degrees in theology and one in psychology. I am considered a theologian by other theologians. I’ve worked in Vatican City, alongside the very best. God, himself, told us he redeemed all creation.

The people I teach understand that Adam’s sin brought sin and corruption into the entire world. The entire world needed redeemed and restored to God. I didn’t sin in the garden, either, and would not have, but I inherited that sin. Adam, by his sin, caused the entire world to need redemption. I discussed this with a colleague today, who is responsible for the entire theological program at our university, and I was told that yes, this is right, and furthermore, it is Bible Study 101. Although he’s Anglican, you and sarah might consider reading NT Wright’s book Justification. It explains, in layman’s terms, why the entire world needed redeemed.

Here is an article that explains WHY Christ redeemed ALL the world:

jamesallman.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/jesus-blood-redeems-the-creation-%E2%80%94-colossians-1-20-2/

You joined 2 months ago. In your first post you stated you were a student. That’s all we have to go by.
Methinks you protest too much, but all of this is off=topic.

Back to the main purpose of the thread.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Perhaps then we should go all the way to certainty…

the-american-catholic.com/2015/07/28/internet-hitler-weeps-for-planned-parenthood/

 

[adrift]

Killing a PROTECTED lion and removing its GPS tracker is a CRIME. I do believe criminals should serve time for their crimes. I believe Palmer should serve his years in a Zimbabwean jail if convicted. I believe PP should have its federal funding cut off as is being discussed.

It was not a crime to lure the lion. It was not a crime to remove the tracker. The hunt was illegal because there wasn’t a permit.
‘What lion?’ Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus

“What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil, who was at that moment topping global news bulletins and generating reams of abuse for his killer on websites in the United States and Europe…“Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?"As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed…
“Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

Cecil (lion)

Bronkhorst appeared in court at Victoria Falls and was charged with poaching offences for not having the required hunting permit. He was granted bail at US$1,000 and has been ordered to appear back in court on 5 August.[20] Bronkhorst stated: “Palmer is a totally innocent party to this whole thing, and he has conducted and bought a hunt from me that was legitimate.”[24] Separately, Ndlovu was charged with allowing an illegal hunt on his land. Zimbabwe National Parks spokespersons explained that lion hunting using firearms is legal, but it requires a permit and a quota which is assigned to a given area. However, this killing was illegal because it took place in an area that does not have a quota for lion kills.[54]

A consequence of this hunt was

Reuters reported that Cecil’s death went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.[45] The country’s The Chronicle newspaper published: “It is not an overstatement that almost 99,99 percent of Zimbabweans didn’t know about this animal until Monday. Now we have just learnt, thanks to the British media, that we had Africa’s most famous lion all along, an icon!”[46] The BBC’s Farai Sevenzo wrote: “The lion’s death has not registered much with the locals”.[47] At the same time, Zimbabwean government officials stated that the killing of Cecil had already caused a drop in tourism revenues. A significant drop was noted in Hwange, where the lion had lived. Many international tourists, who had planned to see the lion, had cancelled their trips. “This killing is a huge loss to our tourism sector that was contributing immensely to the national wealth”, said Emanuel Fundira, the president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe. Head of the Zimbabwe Tourism Authority, Karikoga Kaseke, said that tourism was booming, but that Zimbabwe was now perceived as a country which was not interested in protecting and promoting animal rights, and this had also had a negative impact on the tourism sector.[48]

Bryan Orford, a professional wildlife guide who worked in Hwange, calculates that with tourists from a single nearby lodge collectively paying U.S. $9,800 per day, the revenue generated by having Cecil’s photograph taken over five days would have been greater than someone paying a one-off fee of U.S. $45,000 to hunt and kill the lion, with no hope of future revenue.[11]

Those who are calling for his extradition and prosecution have convicted him already no innocent until proven guilty for them.

 

[Peter_Plato]

You joined 2 months ago. In your first post you stated you were a student. That’s all we have to go by.
Methinks you protest too much, but all of this is off=topic.

Back to the main purpose of the thread.

Otay…

http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/images/trafricapics/trafrica42.jpg

And for a little light reading…

Lions, Triggers and Critics, Oh My!

powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/07/lions-triggers-and-critics-oh-my.php

 

[jeannetherese]

Hunting is not a sport. It’s killing.

Perhaps one might think of hunting as a harvesting?
In the same way that one might harvest grain, killing it for sustenance, or flax for cloth so one might harvest from the animal kingdom (domestic or wild) killing for sustenance or for clothing.

 

[conRep12]

Wow. If it were up to some of the people in this thread, Saint Hubert would have been martyred.