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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
It is sad that an honest error is being compounded by malicious destruction of a man’s life but this is the “morality” of modern society.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
This is so confused I don’t know where to begin.
Do you have some evidence that the dentist knowingly violated the hunting laws where he killed Cecil? Do you know something that the courts that are prosecuting the local guide don’t?
I am no expert on bow hunting but I know enough to know that it is inherently slower death than killing by gun. The strange thing is that many here are insisting on an “even playing field” and, at the same time, lamenting the suffering cuased by primitive weaponry. Which do you want?
I wasn’t there but it’s not hard to imagine what happened. The lion is not going to sit around waiting for a “follow-up shot”. They didn’t sit around drinking tea watching the lion thrash around in front of them for hours. They were probably working as hard as they could to track it down and finish the kill.
Finally, keep in mind that often the alternative to hunting is death by starvation. Now that’s a slow, suffering death and one that puts human lives in danger.
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adrift
Guest
I don’t think that there is a debate of legality just who committed it. No they are not. It is also debatable if this was fair or moral. I do believe that the life of the dentist is more valuable than the lion’s.
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adrift
Guest
You are mistaken on much of what you write. Perhaps you missed that it wasn’t illegal to lure the lion. Your accusation of a theft is not true. To kill the lion was allowed, your mistaken on that point as well. It doesn’t matter that he was being studied or had a tracking collar. You accuse him of taking these actions when it was his guide and the land owner who did these things all of which was not against the law. What made it illegal was the lack of permits. What should be done is to make the it a crime to lure animals which people are asking for now.
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ephesians4
Guest
I believe I identified, in the comment you replied to, the possibility he didn’t “know” he was poaching.
I think this may be due to cultural differences (in which case I guess we agree to disagree), but I don’t see the onus being on anyone else to make sure of your legal status before you take it upon yourself to fire deadly projectiles around the place or take animals, and blaming someone else seems like a blatant cop-out. As a moral or legal defence it wouldn’t work anywhere I know.
There’s no confusion here. He could have used a gun, he could have arranged for a spotter/follow-up shot, he could have gone without the kill if the spot was bad, he chose to stake the humane kill on hitting and eventually dropping a lion with a single hit from a crossbow for the thrill and I guess the experience, and is therefore personally responsible for the messy kill and undue suffering. He will have known this beforehand, there is no need for our hearts to bleed for him on this one.
Yes no doubt they will have had to work hard whilst the inhumanely shot animal needed following.
Accidents can happen, pursuits will happen, but when you go out of your way to invite problems you can be rightly criticized more than usual, in my opinion. Doubly so when hunting for no reason but the fun of it.
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GEddie
Guest
So is the anger now that a) the animal took a while to die, and b) that this fellow should have been fluent in the legal requirements of hunting in a country not his own?
With regard to b), that is why one engages a licensed local guide. You depend on their services; that is where a lot of the money goes. If he decides to break the rules, it is he who should be blamed.
With regard to a), death is uncomfortable and frightening for any living being; it will be uncomfortable and frightening for each of us as well. I am not crying myself to sleep over the death of a wild animal; my feeling limits are finite.
ICXC NIKA
With regard to b), that is why one engages a licensed local guide. You depend on their services; that is where a lot of the money goes. If he decides to break the rules, it is he who should be blamed.
With regard to a), death is uncomfortable and frightening for any living being; it will be uncomfortable and frightening for each of us as well. I am not crying myself to sleep over the death of a wild animal; my feeling limits are finite.
ICXC NIKA
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Thorolfr
Guest
He could have donated his $50,000 to charity to help poor people. It would have been a much better use of $50,000 than using it to experience the thrill of killing a wild animal. I certainly don’t feel very sorry for him, either.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Let’s assume our aim is not to ban hunting but merely to prevent poaching. Whom do we hold responsible here? Or, to put it another way, how much responsibilty is it reasonable to place on the foreign hunter?
One could be an absolutist about it and say that regardless of what he may have done to avoid poaching, if the kill was illegal he should be prosecuted. I am of the opinion, however, that paying a reputable hunting guide $50k for a legal hunt constitutes a reasonable effort to comply with the law. I’m not sure what more he could do. Even if he hired a lawyer to accompany him on the hunt it still leaves the possiblity for error. It used not to be the case that people were prosecuted for honest errors but agressive prosecution is becoming ever more fashionable.
Now if the local guide knowingly violated the law, which seems likely, then he’s going to be rightfullly convicted. And if, during his trial, he testifies that the dentist paid him to poach then obviously the dentist is toast.
Bows are inherently less deadly and I understand you don’t like that choice for hunting but it is not illegal or unethical and it is certainly a more even contest between the two. Sure, a rifle is more likely to result in a clean kill but then a bazooka would be even better by that measure.(Again, you can have a clean kill or you can have a more even contest but not both.)
There is no reason for hunting but for the fun of it. You might as well complain that race car drivers are not commuting to work.
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Drew518
Guest
As someone who hates poaching, and the hunting of endangered and vulnerable animals(which the African Lion is)
The first thing that sticks out to me is this. According to The New York Times, this man claims he was under the impression that his hunt was legal. How can you be a long time hunter, and not know for sure with the local authorities that the hunt was legal? I’m no hunter and I have no problem with hunters. But it doesn’t sound like this guy did his homework at all. If you are going halfway across the world to spend thousands of dollars to get a permit to hunt a rare animal, shouldn’t you be darn sure everything is in order before you begin your merry hunt? And I don’t care if he hired these guys to take care of things. I would want to check myself to make sure things are in order. That’s the responsible thing to do.
Second, he had no idea that this lion was “a known, local favorite, was collared and was part of a study until the end of the hunt”. You know, a lot of research has been done on animals around the world. And one of the biggest aids in this research has been photographs. Researchers can single out individual animals based individual characteristics. You couldn’t grab some pictures and get some local information on the whereabouts of Cecil or other collared animals?
Third, the funds from permits like these are supposed to go “conservation efforts”. The issue is that now that Cecil is dead, the new head of the pride will likely try to kill off Cecil’s brothers and cubs to make space for his own cubs. According to NBC News, 10 cubs may be killed by the new alpha male of the pride. So we technically have the potential for 11 dead lions because of this. CONSERVATION.
There are pro’s and con’s to hunting rare animals like this. But at the end of the day, you have to be responsible. At the end of the day, this guy was not responsible and should have made sure all the proper permits were in order himself. And I’m sorry, but I am not buying his story for a second. The men he was with didn’t recognize him as Cecil? You couldn’t tell he had a collar? No tools? No scopes? No binoculars? Night vision? It is 2015 and a well seasoned wealthy hunter doesn’t have these tools? If you are going to do this, you need to be smart and think about what your doing. The history of this guy doesn’t make me feel any better. In 2008, he pleaded guilty to lying to federal officials about where he shot and killed a black bear in Wisconsin. Now there is this incident to go with that one.
Things like this don’t help matters at all. When poaching is still going strong, filling the black market with ivory, skins, teeth claws, fur, and other parts of poached animals bodies, we don’t need more animal killings. We need more recovery for animals like the African Lion so that they can be removed from the vulnerable list. And we need to continue with sustainability programs for farmers and others to protect their crops and livestock from predators. Which is why, despite the fact that I am not totally against big game hunting, I think hunters need to step back for a minute and think about what their doing. They need to be a lot smarter then this guy was. They need to work with local wildlife authorities and come up with a plan of how to hunt and which animals to avoid; and how to identify them(pictures, descriptions, known locations, gps tracking, etc). We can avoid things like this in the future if everyone works together.
But we do need to recognize that the song of praise and glory that Cecil sang to God, through his very existence, was worth far more then any “trophy” could be worth. “By their mere existence they bless Him and give Him glory”(CCC 2416).
Just my thoughts.
The first thing that sticks out to me is this. According to The New York Times, this man claims he was under the impression that his hunt was legal. How can you be a long time hunter, and not know for sure with the local authorities that the hunt was legal? I’m no hunter and I have no problem with hunters. But it doesn’t sound like this guy did his homework at all. If you are going halfway across the world to spend thousands of dollars to get a permit to hunt a rare animal, shouldn’t you be darn sure everything is in order before you begin your merry hunt? And I don’t care if he hired these guys to take care of things. I would want to check myself to make sure things are in order. That’s the responsible thing to do.
Second, he had no idea that this lion was “a known, local favorite, was collared and was part of a study until the end of the hunt”. You know, a lot of research has been done on animals around the world. And one of the biggest aids in this research has been photographs. Researchers can single out individual animals based individual characteristics. You couldn’t grab some pictures and get some local information on the whereabouts of Cecil or other collared animals?
Third, the funds from permits like these are supposed to go “conservation efforts”. The issue is that now that Cecil is dead, the new head of the pride will likely try to kill off Cecil’s brothers and cubs to make space for his own cubs. According to NBC News, 10 cubs may be killed by the new alpha male of the pride. So we technically have the potential for 11 dead lions because of this. CONSERVATION.
There are pro’s and con’s to hunting rare animals like this. But at the end of the day, you have to be responsible. At the end of the day, this guy was not responsible and should have made sure all the proper permits were in order himself. And I’m sorry, but I am not buying his story for a second. The men he was with didn’t recognize him as Cecil? You couldn’t tell he had a collar? No tools? No scopes? No binoculars? Night vision? It is 2015 and a well seasoned wealthy hunter doesn’t have these tools? If you are going to do this, you need to be smart and think about what your doing. The history of this guy doesn’t make me feel any better. In 2008, he pleaded guilty to lying to federal officials about where he shot and killed a black bear in Wisconsin. Now there is this incident to go with that one.
Things like this don’t help matters at all. When poaching is still going strong, filling the black market with ivory, skins, teeth claws, fur, and other parts of poached animals bodies, we don’t need more animal killings. We need more recovery for animals like the African Lion so that they can be removed from the vulnerable list. And we need to continue with sustainability programs for farmers and others to protect their crops and livestock from predators. Which is why, despite the fact that I am not totally against big game hunting, I think hunters need to step back for a minute and think about what their doing. They need to be a lot smarter then this guy was. They need to work with local wildlife authorities and come up with a plan of how to hunt and which animals to avoid; and how to identify them(pictures, descriptions, known locations, gps tracking, etc). We can avoid things like this in the future if everyone works together.
But we do need to recognize that the song of praise and glory that Cecil sang to God, through his very existence, was worth far more then any “trophy” could be worth. “By their mere existence they bless Him and give Him glory”(CCC 2416).
Just my thoughts.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
One aspect that I have pointed out is that there is a limited carrying capacity of the area and the preserve itself. Your description here exactly fits those facts. The death of Cecil may well tip the scales of one pride vs. another. But it is very unlikely to result in a net reduction in lions on the preserve beyond a mating season or two. Cecil’s pride is now weaker and another will grow in its place. Somewhere in Africa a lion pride is celebrating the death of Cecil.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
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Belshazzar
Guest
RETRIBUTION!!!
wildlifeextra.com/go/news/trophy-hunter-elephant.html#cr
Professional Trophy Hunter Trampled to Death by Elephant
…this happened a few months ago in the same country (Zimbabwe).
wildlifeextra.com/go/news/trophy-hunter-elephant.html#cr
Professional Trophy Hunter Trampled to Death by Elephant
…this happened a few months ago in the same country (Zimbabwe).
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ephesians4
Guest
One thing that is clear to me, there is a slightly mad witch hunt going on against this guy from what I’ve seen this morning, with people calling for his death and so on, and I certainly don’t endorse that. That said, this is the sort of vitriol and misunderstanding even a perfectly humane and careful deer stalker faces in much of the first world, and that gets worse every time someone crops up on the news having killed the world’s only living unicorn with a spork or whatever…
I just wish people who do this sort of thing would think about what they are doing to hunting, and doing to the animal, which would calm them down before they even get to the point where they face the wrath of anti-hunting lunatics.
I just wish people who do this sort of thing would think about what they are doing to hunting, and doing to the animal, which would calm them down before they even get to the point where they face the wrath of anti-hunting lunatics.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
I wouldn’t say that his life is being maliciously ruined. He is not losing anything that he is legitimately entitled to. His patients who are abandoning him never owed him anything in the first place. He took a risk, he lost big time. This is a perfectly just outcome because he is not owed anything by anyone in the first place. So a just outcome can in no way be malicious.
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relstudent
Guest
Im sorry, but most people’s ignorance on this matter is shocking! Predator hunting is practiced on a wide scale, especially in the US. Thousands of Coyotes, mountain lions, and wolves are killed each year in US hunts, and they are usually not used as anything as trophies or pelts. Noone is upset about these “noble creatures” being killed.
The fact is that lion hunting in Zimbabwe is a perfectly legal activity, and a hunter, even when chartering a hunt in an unfamiliar state, usually relies solely on his guides to understand hunting laws, regulations, and conduct. One of the reasons you pay so much to go on these trips (us trips included) is so that you do not have to navigate the complex hunting regulations of the place you want to hunt.
The truth is that paid lion hunts are a great way to PRESERVE the lions as a species. By charging $ 50,000 + for a big game kill, the lion becomes a means of income for guides and communities. Without this means of incomes, African natives would kill large numbers of lions, especially in rural areas, because they pose a threat to local communities. By making it a trophy animal, the communities benefit from tourism and guide services, and the number of lions killed per year is dramatically less.
The fact is that lion hunting in Zimbabwe is a perfectly legal activity, and a hunter, even when chartering a hunt in an unfamiliar state, usually relies solely on his guides to understand hunting laws, regulations, and conduct. One of the reasons you pay so much to go on these trips (us trips included) is so that you do not have to navigate the complex hunting regulations of the place you want to hunt.
The truth is that paid lion hunts are a great way to PRESERVE the lions as a species. By charging $ 50,000 + for a big game kill, the lion becomes a means of income for guides and communities. Without this means of incomes, African natives would kill large numbers of lions, especially in rural areas, because they pose a threat to local communities. By making it a trophy animal, the communities benefit from tourism and guide services, and the number of lions killed per year is dramatically less.
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GEddie
Guest
The malice is not in the patients who exercise their right to go to another dentist; the malice lies in the journalists, Facebookers, et al, who go out of their way to present him as an evil man (worse than a mankiller, in some minds) rather than a participant in a legitimate sporting activity which tragically resulted in the death of a cherished local mascot.
ICXC NIKA
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Kaninchen
Guest
While my earlier suggestion that he’d spent his life as a victim of naughty people was a tongue-in-cheek prediction of how he’d be defended, an Agatha Christie reader might well be left wondering whether he really would be the kind of person one would be happy to leave alone with the family silver.
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mikekle
Guest
Remember that this looser LURED the lion off the reserve, so hes worse than your average hunter, he showed everyone what he thinks of the rules…and now, he is in hiding, (coward).
Personally, I hope he looses his practice over this.
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relstudent
Guest
Baiting and luring are common hunting practices, especially in predator hunting, Luring is used for legal lion hunting, and was carried out by the guides, The “lions share” of the blame should be given to the guides. Besides that, his conduct with the lion hunt and the effect to his practice is a classic non sequitur
.
“A client usually has no idea about the laws and regulations of the country he is hunting in – he just buys a safari and then places himself in the hands of his professional hunter guide. Finding the client could be interesting to let him tell his side of the story, but in terms of legal prosecution this person is hardly important,” Lion Aid
"the bait was set for a leopard and then Cecil came along. The professional hunter, Theo Bronkhorst told his client to shoot the lion, and then the hunt became illegal,” Lion Aid
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maryjk
Guest
He is hiding because people have made threats against his life.
People have stormed his office.
His home address has been posted on social media.
He has a wife and two children.
And the hunt wasn’t illegal because the lion was lured.
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