Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

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Rich, white first world citizens have the luxury to be sentimental about lions. The people living in Africa don’t.
The people in Zimbabwe seem to have a better sense of priorities
than Americans raised in the wonderful world of Disney.
The furor over this lion’s death is hurting the poor PEOPLE of Zimbabwe:

*Louis Muller, chairman of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association, who was at the Harare meeting, said that the country needed to tell the world that its lion population was “extremely healthy” and that hunting was important to the conservation effort.
“Few people seem to know about the contribution hunting makes to wildlife conservation in Zimbabwe, nor how much it helps poor people. Hunting is a major contributor to the welfare of more than two million children in rural communities," he said…

Charles Jonga, director of Zimbabwe’s CAMPFIRE (Community Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources) project which uses revenue from hunting to fund projects in poor rural communities, said he was deeply worried about the after-effects of the Cecil tragedy.

He told the Telegraph that it was only due to hunting revenue that CAMPFIRE was able to keep its projects going, as Zimbabwe attracted “hardly any” support from international donors.
In hunting areas, he said, each hunter was obliged to pay four per cent of their earnings to CAMPFIRE, most of which was spent on poor communities.

“We fund health care, education for underprivileged children, and teach rural people how to exist alongside wildlife so we preserve land for game and wildlife which then has a value to poor communities.
“Hunting funds about 700 game scouts and many other jobs for so many Zimbabweans such as cleaners, cooks, packers, guides, and camp staff. It will be catastrophic if what we hear is true, that many hunting bookings have been cancelled.”*

:mad:

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11783424/Zimbabwe-conservation-groups-warn-of-tough-days-ahead-as-tourists-cancel-trips.html
 
This group is based in Zimbabwe - natives. We need to be careful about not caring about what they think. That is super bad. Or do we just like the ones that say what we say? I think it’s called “reality.”
I have tried to find out about this group. There is not much information about who they are but what little I did find does not support that they are natives.
 
Uh-huh. And there is absolutely no justification for this man to be treated as he’s been. By, *(to use your term not mine) *“decadent bored idiots” with a penchant for cruelty and no sense of perspective for God’s law. Now that…is lunacy!

Peace to you,
Mark
No disagreement here. But the way he has been treated by a few doesn’t change or diminish one iota the lunacy of what he did (or the senseless cruelty of it). You make your bed you lay in it some would say. Sorry to say I think the dentist has simply met his match with these fanatics. I should emphasize (again) that I intensely dislike inhumanity in all forms. I am a Catholic - comes with the territory. I disapprove of the actions of the dentist. I disapprove of the actions of the fanatics. This is where I believe a reasonable, compassionate, CCC reading person should be on this topic.

Peace to you, FollowChrist
 
The people in Zimbabwe seem to have a better sense of priorities
than Americans raised in the wonderful world of Disney.
The furor over this lion’s death is hurting the poor PEOPLE of Zimbabwe:

Louis Muller, chairman of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association, who was at the Harare meeting, said that the country needed to tell the world that its lion population was “extremely healthy” and that hunting was important to the conservation effort.
“Few people seem to know about the contribution hunting makes to wildlife conservation in Zimbabwe, nor how much it helps poor people. Hunting is a major contributor to the welfare of more than two million children in rural communities,"
he said…

Charles Jonga, director of Zimbabwe’s CAMPFIRE (Community Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources) project which uses revenue from hunting to fund projects in poor rural communities, said he was deeply worried about the after-effects of the Cecil tragedy.

He told the Telegraph that it was only due to hunting revenue that CAMPFIRE was able to keep its projects going, as Zimbabwe attracted “hardly any” support from international donors.
In hunting areas, he said, each hunter was obliged to pay four per cent of their earnings to CAMPFIRE, most of which was spent on poor communities.

“We fund health care, education for underprivileged children, and teach rural people how to exist alongside wildlife so we preserve land for game and wildlife which then has a value to poor communities.
“Hunting funds about 700 game scouts and many other jobs for so many Zimbabweans such as cleaners, cooks, packers, guides, and camp staff. It will be catastrophic if what we hear is true, that many hunting bookings have been cancelled.”

:mad:

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11783424/Zimbabwe-conservation-groups-warn-of-tough-days-ahead-as-tourists-cancel-trips.html
And where are you on raising the minimum wage? Taxation and government spending? Obamacare? Immigration? Global warming and exploitation? How much sleep are you losing over the US poor and disadvantaged?
 
And where are you on raising the minimum wage? Taxation and government spending? Obamacare? Immigration? Global warming and exploitation?
My opinion on those subjects has no bearing on this topic.

The fact is that this constant drum-beat over the hunting of
Cecil is injuring the already impoverished people of Zimbabwe.
 
I agree with you that the anti-dentist movement is over the top at its fringes. I have stated this concern I think about five times now. I personally think a lot of the posts on this thread are over the top. I think some of us Catholics sound like bloodthirsty hate-filled fire breathing nuts. Out there with The Lord of the Flies. God forbid some non Catholic reader sees us attacking each other like this. It’s indicative of a complete lack of fellow-feeling or sympathy, either for each other, or the animals that have been killed in trophy hunts. There is no reason a dentist needs to go to Zimbawbe to kill lions that have done him no harm. That is a perfectly Catholic thing to believe. No justification for this killing; the dentist was not threatened by the lion; he was not hungry; he was not poor. He was a decadent bored idiot with a penchant for cruelty. Killing this lion - that is lunacy.

I just want to guy extradited to Zimbabwe, as I have stated time and again.

Peace, FollowChrist
I agree 100% with everything you wrote here, and you said it better than I could, so that’s all I’ll say except that I don’t live in a “Disney” world (not that you said I did, I am addressing those who do). I have never seen the Disney channel or watched a Disney movie that I am aware of other than “Lady and the Tramp.” I don’t like fantasy and that seems to be part and parcel of Disney.
 
No disagreement here. But the way he has been treated by a few doesn’t change or diminish one iota the lunacy of what he did (or the senseless cruelty of it). You make your bed you lay in it some would say. Sorry to say I think the dentist has simply met his match with these fanatics. I should emphasize (again) that I intensely dislike inhumanity in all forms. I am a Catholic - comes with the territory. I disapprove of the actions of the dentist. I disapprove of the actions of the fanatics. This is where I believe a reasonable, compassionate, CCC reading person should be on this topic.

Peace to you, FollowChrist
Don’t worry FC34, some of us see your point clearly and agree. There is a weak spot in mankind that misinterprets mans dominance over beasts as a justification to exploit their existence without limitation… in the name of greed and lust. That’s what warrants another human voice to provide heartfelt defense against that attitude.

I’m reminded of my mother, a career long primary school teacher and sacramental coordinator, a strict disciplinarian and all round stern but loving woman… break into tears at vision of battery hens and abattoir yards. I recognise that as some sort of gift from God meant to temper the hardness of mens hearts towards the creatures given to our service.

You are doing an excellent job.
 
I agree 100% with everything you wrote here, and you said it better than I could, so that’s all I’ll say except that I don’t live in a “Disney” world (not that you said I did, I am addressing those who do). I have never seen the Disney channel or watched a Disney movie that I am aware of other than “Lady and the Tramp.” I don’t like fantasy and that seems to be part and parcel of Disney.
Thanks :).

No, I don’t get the Disney references either. At first I thought it was about the MGM lion in the old movies but apparently it is about something else, The Lion King or something. I have no idea - not my scene at all. I thought you had to be under 10 to know or care about Disney but apparently that is wrong too. Seems to be an important cultural reference of some sort.
 
Don’t worry FC34, some of us see your point clearly and agree. There is a weak spot in mankind that misinterprets mans dominance over beasts as a justification to exploit their existence without limitation… in the name of greed and lust. That’s what warrants another human voice to provide heartfelt defense against that attitude.

I’m reminded of my mother, a career long primary school teacher and sacramental coordinator, a strict disciplinarian and all round stern but loving woman… break into tears at vision of battery hens and abattoir yards. I recognise that as some sort of gift from God meant to temper the hardness of mens hearts towards the creatures given to our service.

You are doing an excellent job.
Thank you LongingSoul!

:extrahappy:
 
The fact is that this constant drum-beat over the hunting of
Cecil is injuring the already impoverished people of Zimbabwe.
Don’t go confusing the issue with anything as trivial as facts.
 
I have to ask: are you really this uncharitable or are you simply practicing your rhetoric?
Unfortunately I don’t believe for a nano second that this dentist cares about culling and feeding the poor when he pays $55,000 to go to Africa, hires some locals to lure a lion to his vicinity and stalk and torture it for 40 odd hours.

You do believe that and and nothing will convince you otherwise. The modern world simply do not like being called out on the seven deadly sins if it doesn’t suit their lifestyle but rather than being uncharitable to point it out… it is the height of charity.
 
Unfortunately I don’t believe for a nano second that this dentist cares about culling and feeding the poor when he pays $55,000 to go to Africa, hires some locals to lure a lion to his vicinity and stalk and torture it for 40 odd hours.

You do believe that and and nothing will convince you otherwise. The modern world simply do not like being called out on the seven deadly sins if it doesn’t suit their lifestyle but rather than being uncharitable to point it out… it is the height of charity.
Matthew 7:1-3
 
Unfortunately I don’t believe for a nano second that this dentist cares about culling and feeding the poor when he pays $55,000 to go to Africa, hires some locals to lure a lion to his vicinity and stalk and torture it for 40 odd hours.

You do believe that and and nothing will convince you otherwise. The modern world simply do not like being called out on the seven deadly sins if it doesn’t suit their lifestyle but rather than being uncharitable to point it out… it is the height of charity.
And, in your view, there are only two possibilities: either he spends $55,000 cull the herd and care for the poor or he is doing it out of “greed and lust”?

Yeah, I’d say that people don’t like being slandered in public by phony moralists on such flimsly reasoning. If that’s your idea of charity I have to wonder.
 
I spent an hour or so researching trophy hunting and wildlife conservation in Africa. I did not know much about it before this media explosion about the killing of Cecil. There is solid mainstream support of limited, regulated trophy hunting by conservation and biologist organizations.

The argument runs that trophy hunting generates revenue which goes back to land and wildlife conservation (and to local communities). I owe some apologies here. This is a highly controversial issue with many animal rights groups opposing killing animals for sport. These animal rights groups are not extreme or on the fringe. One of the arguments against trophy hunting I saw was that ecotourism achieves the same level of wildlife conservation and actually generates more revenue, without killing animals. The animal rights groups say the benefits of trophy hunting are often exaggerated and the extent of animal destruction downplayed.

Yet another problem is that governments of Africa are often involved in poaching rings and very corrupt themselves, thus of little help in terms of conservation. (Conservation and hunting are “white man’s” “elitist” concerns. I realize Africa has horrible poverty. But responsibility to its environment should not just be a white man’s elitist past-time.) Regulating trophy hunting is suspect and there are concerns that it is not regulated closely enough, i.e., too many animals killed and/or the revenue goes to private hands, not public and/or conservation. But there is good evidence that trophy hunting does increase wildlife populations and help conserve land.

All agree that trophy hunting is a complex, extremely controversial issue - to get to the bottom of it, i.e., whether it is good or bad, would take more time than I am willing to spend. But I wanted to post this in light of my earlier comments - it is only fair.

I will say this. The fact that we have reached the point where luxury killing of animals is our best bet in order to save them speaks for itself (think the Pope’s encyclical re the degraded state of man’s relationship to creation and himself). It IS time to re-examine our relationship to creation; maybe that is what all of this can lead to on a large public, secular scale, at least in terms of African wildlife and conservation efforts. I still think trophy hunting is morally reprehensible. Ecotourism I suspect could easily supplant it going forward; I can’t see ecotourism ever dying out and I can see wealthy Western nations and individuals supporting it more and more. I would go there in a heartbeat. 🙂
 
Yeah, I’d say that people don’t like being slandered in public by phony moralists on such flimsly reasoning. If that’s your idea of charity I have to wonder.
Do you say that of all animal rights advocates across the board on principal or do you think that the treatment of animals should be subject to moral examination as a general rule?

Those who advocated for ethical treatment of battery hens, are they phony moralists? Those who advocated for changes to the herding of livestock in abattoirs resulting in major changes… are they phony moralists? Those who campaigned against Japanese whaling in the Pacific and forcing an outright ban… are they phony moralists? Those who got greyhound trainers charged and jailed for using live piglets for greyhound bait… are they phony moralists?

All those practices are still justified to many people because they think animals and their place in creation don’t deserve consideration of any sort.
 
Do you say that of all animal rights advocates across the board on principal or do you think that the treatment of animals should be subject to moral examination as a general rule?

Those who advocated for ethical treatment of battery hens, are they phony moralists? Those who advocated for changes to the herding of livestock in abattoirs resulting in major changes… are they phony moralists? Those who campaigned against Japanese whaling in the Pacific and forcing an outright ban… are they phony moralists? Those who got greyhound trainers charged and jailed for using live piglets for greyhound bait… are they phony moralists?

All those practices are still justified to many people because they think animals and their place in creation don’t deserve consideration of any sort.
My comment was with regard to your words and the false dichotomies that you so eagerly embrace.
 
I wasn’t referring to the media, I was referring to the people who use this argument. It rarely makes sense. It’s just a way to dodge the issue of the mistreatment of animals.

I wish people would extend their sympathy for Cecil to all animals. I agree that Planned Parenthood didn’t get enough coverage, and I agree that this one incident of animal cruelty is overblown, but I do feel that you are perhaps not seeing the bigger picture. Humans tend to treat animals like commodities or objects to be used or played with, and their suffering is generally ignored. I’m sure a lot of people mourning Cecil have a very superficial view of his death. Again, I only ever see your abortion argument as an attempt to ignore other issues.

I don’t recall saying that. It isn’t proportionate at all, no. I just said it’s irrelevant and an attempt to derail the discussing regarding our mistreatment of animals. Even if abortion takes place we still mistreat animals as well. In fact, the extent of that is also ignored by the media.
Let’s try to be clear about the difference between human beings and animals.

Human beings are moral agents because we have the capacity for moral agency. That means EACH individual as an individual moral agent has a certain set of determinable rights – the right to life being one.

Having a right means other moral agents have an obligation to respect and uphold that right. In the case of a right to life, other individual human moral agents are obliged to respect the right to life of other individual human moral agents.

Please take note: animals are not moral agents. If they were, they would have obligations at the level of each individual to respect and uphold the rights of other moral agents. They could, therefore, be held responsible and liable for moral failures.

When was the last time a lion was held liable for killing a wildebeast or zebra? For eating its own offspring? The answer is pretty obvious. Lions are not MORALLY accountable BECAUSE they are NOT moral agents. Lions do what lions do. They are part of the natural order, not part of the moral order.

Animals do not have moral rights precisely because they are not moral creatures. Individual human beings, on the other hand, are capable of moral agency and, therefore, have moral rights at an individual level.

It is incorrect to speak of animal rights. It is NOT, however, incorrect to speak of animal welfare. Animals are part of a natural system, for which human beings ARE responsible. If animals had rights it would be as wrong to harm or kill any one individual without moral warrant as it would be to harm or kill its entire cohort. Clearly, this is not the case.

Animals that are as sentient capable as lions are killed every day for food. Humans have NO moral responsibility towards any one individual lion because lions do not have moral rights. If they did, the natural order would reflect the moral order and animals would NOT kill each other for their next meal and human beings wouldn’t either.

There is such a thing, however, as animal welfare. Human beings DO have responsibility towards animals as classes of beings. We are responsible for the well-being of each animal group – which is why environmentalism is morally laudable. We have responsibility for using the environment in such a way as to preserve and protect it and all the living creatures that are part of it and for its well-being as the abode of all living biological entities. We have responsibility for the whole, not for particular individual animals except to the extent that the welfare of the entire system is placed in jeopardy by their demise.

Individual animals exist for the good of the whole because that feature is intrinsic to the natural order. Individual moral agents, on the other hand, do not exist for the good of the whole. The whole exists for the good of each moral agent – that would be the true and objective GOOD of each moral individual, not merely to satisfy whims.

Note the difference.

Moral responsibility means we have obligations to uphold the rights of each individual human being as human being qua moral agent.

Environmental responsibility means we have responsibility for the welfare of the whole natural order. The life or existence of any one particular individual is NOT the concern except insofar as the whole is affected. That is why it is permissible to hunt for food provided that the hunting is sustainable and maintains the integrity of the environment within which that animal lives. That means our behaviour vis a vis the environment should reflect concern for the good or well-being of the whole and particular individual animals to the extent that their existence is required for maintaining the whole.

This is why, for example, that it IS permissible to destroy large numbers of animals infected with a disease that threatens the entire population, but a similar move would be immoral if human beings were involved. We would not ever choose to kill and burn human beings infected with, say, ebola, but, rather, do everything we can to save every life. That is because we intuitively know that each individual human being has intrinsic moral worth, but individual animals are not owed that level of obligation. At least there is not the moral warrant for that kind of obligation towards any one animal.
 
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