Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Linkowski
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I personally do not see what the big fuss is about Romans 8. This simply giving an overview of God’s plan of salvation and how it is executed in time. It applies to the elect.

God Bless,
Michael
 
sandusky said:
Hi Phil.

No, Phil; I think it obvious from the context that the FPCJG, and the elect, are one, and the same.

There are any number of sources I could footnote to support that, but will use one familiar to you

The Catholic Encyclopedia at NewAdvent.org, under subhead II New Testament states:The New Testament transfers (excepting perhaps in Acts 13:17) the meaning of the term [the elect] from its connection with the people of Israel to the members of the Church of Christ,…St. Paul, too, speaks of the elect (Romans 8:33) and describes the five degrees of their election: they are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified (loc. cit., 29, 30).
I do not entirely agree with the first statement listed, in that, Israel is still the elect of God in a national sense, and has not been replaced by the Church, and there were/are Jews in the Church.

You are partly correct. 🙂
Click to expand...
Hi Sandusky and thanks again!

Would you please tell me which of my conclusions from Romans 11 is erroneous and how you determined this?
The more I read Romans 8 the more confusing it is - regardless of ones theology - to the point of being useless.
 
40.png
NotWorthy:
If Paul is the author who is establishing this Golden Chain of Salvation, why is God petitioning God for other’s Salvation in Romans, chapter 10. Isn’t the deal already sealed?

“1 Brothers, my dearest wish and my prayer to God is for them, that they may be saved. 2 I readily testify to their fervor for God, but it is misguided.
Click to expand...
Why shouldn’t Paul desire and pray for the salvation of Israel?

Paul is a man with a compassionate heart, a man with a great love for Christ, and His Church, and His chosen people—the Jews.

Earlier Paul says:Romans 9:1-5

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.Look at all that the Jews had been given, and lost. Aren’t you at all affected by the pathos of Paul?

Paul’s lament is for his own flesh; he is heartbroken over the Jews rejection, of their messiah, and their messiah’s rejection of them. Even though Paul is the consummate theologian, even though Paul knows that God has purposed all things, even though Paul knows that the salvation of national Israel will one day be a reality, still, his heart aches at his present time for the Nation’s salvation.

You’re getting a glimpse of a compassionate heart; it’s as simple as that.
 
40.png
Philthy:
Hi Sandusky and thanks again!

Would you please tell me which of my conclusions from Romans 11 is erroneous and how you determined this?
Click to expand...
You got Rom 11 right; what you didn’t get right is 8:33; that is why I said you were “partly right.”
40.png
Philthy:
The more I read Romans 8 the more confusing it is - regardless of ones theology - to the point of being useless.
Click to expand...
Well, Phil, what is useless to one, is great treasure to another. 🙂
 
sandusky said:
Why shouldn’t Paul desire and pray for the salvation of Israel?

Paul is a man with a compassionate heart, a man with a great love for Christ, and His Church, and His chosen people—the Jews.
Click to expand...
But the point of the thread is that the elect are pre-destined to go to heaven. Why should you pray for someone who is elected, and what would it help if they are not elected?
 
40.png
NotWorthy:
But the point of the thread is that the elect are pre-destined to go to heaven. Why should you pray for someone who is elected, and what would it help if they are not elected?
Click to expand...
That is the point of the thread, but the I was explaining the pathos of Paul, and the point of his lament in the beginning of Romans 9, and 10. I’m sorry that my response is not satisfying for you. 🙂
 
sandusky said:
That is the point of the thread, but the I was explaining the pathos of Paul, and the point of his lament in the beginning of Romans 9, and 10. I’m sorry that my response is satisfying for you. 🙂
Click to expand...
OKay, Sandusky, I feel like I’m in the skit, “Who’s on First”.

A) The thread claims that the elect are destined for heaven. Period.
B) The thread claims that those not elected aren’t going. Period.
C) If this is so, why would Paul waste time praying for people. It doesn’t matter, since the only thing that matters is whether they are elected or not, which also brings to mind the necessity of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, since the elected are the elected, and “what”'s on second and “I don’t know” is on third.
 
40.png
NotWorthy:
OKay, Sandusky, I feel like I’m in the skit, “Who’s on First”.

A) The thread claims that the elect are destined for heaven. Period.
B) The thread claims that those not elected aren’t going. Period.
C) If this is so, why would Paul waste time praying for people. It doesn’t matter, since the only thing that matters is whether they are elected or not, which also brings to mind the necessity of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, since the elected are the elected, and “what”'s on second and “I don’t know” is on third.
Click to expand...
Paul is giving a glimpse of his heart, NotWorthy, and making known his great desire for the salvation of the Jews; nothing more; nothing less; keep reading through the epistle; Paul finishes telling of God’s plan for the Jews in chapter 11, and the certainty of that plan.

Take Paul’s lament, desire, and prayer for what it is—a heartfelt lament, desire, and prayer for the salvation of his own flesh.

This is how a sound hermeneutic works: one arrives at what the text is saying; one does not arrive at what one wants the text to say.

What do you want the text to say?
 
There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding predestination. I think we need to establish certain facts:
  1. No one is naturally entitled to salvation. If we were, then salvation would be something that is owed and thus God would be obligated to pay us.
  2. Predestination is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.
3)Complete Predestination (grace to glory) is not based on forseen merits. Thus all theologians (Thomist and Molinist) believe that predestination to glory is ultimately based on God’s gracious choice.
  1. All of our merits are ultimately derived from grace and any reward is based on God’s gracious promise. Hence, when God rewards, He is crowning His own work.
5)While the Church asserts the freedom of the will, it also asserts that the will cannot chose God without prevenient grace. Salvation is God’s inititiave.
  1. The Church also believes in the unequal distribution of grace. God gives the gift of final perseverance to whomever He pleases.
God Bless,
Michael
 
sandusky said:
Paul is giving a glimpse of his heart, NotWorthy, and making known his great desire for the salvation of the Jews; nothing more; nothing less; keep reading through the epistle; Paul finishes telling of God’s plan for the Jews in chapter 11, and the certainty of that plan.

Take Paul’s lament, desire, and prayer for what it is—a heartfelt lament, desire, and prayer for the salvation of his own flesh.
Click to expand...
Im sorry, Sandusky but this is, well, difficult to swallow. You are reducing Scripture to Pauls biography as if it somehow has more to do with Paul’s irrational (IF Romans means what you claim it does) desires than it does with God. After all is said and done we dont really care about Paul’s conflicts if they are not a revelation of God’s Will, do we? And to say that God is conflicted doesnt quite add up.
40.png
Sandusky:
This is how a sound hermeneutic works: one arrives at what the text is saying; one does not arrive at what one wants the text to say.

What do you want the text to say?
Click to expand...
I would rather it simply say something that is, well, less confusing with fewer apparent contradictions to other Scripture and more useful. Honestly if all is irrevocably predestined in the manner I understand some to believe then Scripture should be very short:
In the beginning God create Heaven and Earth. God has done it all and you need do nothing at all. The end.
 
The Church also believes in the unequal distribution of grace. God gives the gift of final perseverance to whomever He pleases.
Click to expand...
I thought God gives sufficient grace for everyone to be saved. Is this not the case?

Ut
 
Philthy said:
Honestly if all is irrevocably predestined in the manner I understand some to believe then Scripture should be very short:

In the beginning God create Heaven and Earth. God has done it all and you need do nothing at all. The end.
Click to expand...
I’m grateful that the fatelist interpretation you present is not what Scripture, nor RCC Doctrine teaches.
 
utunumsint said:
I thought God gives sufficient grace for everyone to be saved. Is this not the case?Ut
Click to expand...
**Yes. He did.

Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all men to know who Jesus was. Atheist\Buddist\Hindos\Islamist all know who Jesus was.

However, not all men are going to come to a knowledge of Christ. The bible teachs that only a few are. Jesus’ resurrection produced the desired effect within His elect family.**
 
utunumsint said:
I thought God gives sufficient grace for everyone to be saved. Is this not the case?

Ut
Click to expand...
This is primarily in reference to the grace of final perseverance. Here is the study note on Romans 9:18 from the Navarre Bible:
"In freely distributing His grace unequally among men, God desires this variety to contribute to the beauty and perfection of creation. The unequal distribution of grace also includes the gift of final perseverance, which is not something to which man has a right: God gives it to whomever He choses. However, God grants everyone the grace of conversion and repentance and opens to all the gates of salvation; if a person in the exercise of his freedom rejects these gifts, God respects this human decision."
Click to expand...
Sufficient grace is offered to all and those among the reprobate, enabled by God prevenient grace, who accept His offer of salvation will receive the grace of justification. However, only in the elect will the gift of final perseverance be efficacious. If a person who was genuinely justified fails to persevere, they were not counted among the elect. The elect are assured salvation and thus cannot be lost. Their number is immutably fixed. However, one can know if one has been justified, but one cannot have infallible assurance that one is a member of the elect.

God Bless,
Michael
 
40.png
Philthy:
Im sorry, Sandusky but this is, well, difficult to swallow.
Click to expand...
LOL.

Well, Phil, and NotWorthy, tell me then, what is Paul’s desire, and his prayer for the salvation
of the Jews about, if not his love for them? 🙂
 
sandusky said:
Paul is giving a glimpse of his heart, NotWorthy, and making known his great desire for the salvation of the Jews; nothing more; nothing less; keep reading through the epistle; Paul finishes telling of God’s plan for the Jews in chapter 11, and the certainty of that plan.

Take Paul’s lament, desire, and prayer for what it is—a heartfelt lament, desire, and prayer for the salvation of his own flesh.

This is how a sound hermeneutic works: one arrives at what the text is saying; one does not arrive at what one wants the text to say.

What do you want the text to say?
Click to expand...
OK, now I’m even further confused. I guess I thought you were agreeing with the premise of the thread - election and what not. But now it seems like you are agreeing with the Catholic position.

Maybe I’m just questioning myself on whether you are actually agreeing with us heathen Catholics!
 
sandusky said:
LOL.

Well, Phil, and NotWorthy, tell me then, what is Paul’s desire, and his prayer for the salvation
of the Jews about, if not his love for them? 🙂
Click to expand...
Of course, but Link’s premise was regarding the elect. I just assumed you were agreeing with Link, but it seems like :eek: you might be agreeing with Catholics!!!

If I’m correct, you better not let anyone else know about this?
 
NotWorthy said:
Of course, but Link’s premise was regarding the elect. I just assumed you were agreeing with Link, but it seems like :eek: you might be agreeing with Catholics!!!

If I’m correct, you better not let anyone else know about this?
Click to expand...
I see. Now you agree with me; you didn’t agree when I said the same thing the first time, but now you do agree with me…[sigh…]
 
sandusky said:
I see. Now you agree with me; you didn’t agree when I said the same thing the first time, but now you do agree with me…[sigh…]
Click to expand...
Didn’t I begin this little tete-a-tete with “I’m confused”?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top