Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

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You don’t know what you are talking about Mike. You really should attempt to understand what Pelagianism is before you accuse one of it.

Pelagianism has to do with our ability limiting our responsibility. IOW Pelagian stated that God holds man responsible only for those things that man is able to do, and since God wants us to do good, therefore, we must have the ability to do the good that God commands.

A Pelagian statement would be: man by his own natural powers is able to accept the gospel.

As you can see from the quote above, that is not what I said.

I have yet to call a Catholic a heretic, but Catholics freely throw that word at me, and they are always wrong.
Since Mike wont be here for a while, I thought I would step in… I think he was trying to agree with you on this point with the idea that you were acussing Catholics of Pelagianism.

I’m sure Mike will clarify himself when he returns though. 🙂

Ut
 
Sandusky and Linkowski: do you reject free will, or the idea that free will, moved by grace, has anything to do with our salvation? Because if this is true, then we are merely robots, and all our choices are merely predetermined by the will of God.

This position (if you hold it) seems to denigrate humanity. If God did not create us with free will, how are we in the image and likeness of God?

Ut
 
The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matthew 25:34; Revelation 20:15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Romans 8:28 sq.): “we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Cf. Ephesians 1:4-11) Besides the eternal “foreknowledge” and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: “vocation”, “justification”, and “glorification”.
 
Sandusky and Linkowski: do you reject free will, or the idea that free will, moved by grace, has anything to do with our salvation?
What do you mean by free will? How do you define it?

By free will do you mean that the creature is absolutely free, and that God does not exercise his power over the will and choice of the creature?
 
What do you mean by free will? How do you define it?
By free will do you mean that the creature is absolutely free, and that God does not exercise his power over the will and choice of the creature?
By free will, I mean that human beings are responsible for their actions, they can cooperate in the grace God offers.

Do you reject free will as an illusion? Is God’s grace, or damnation irresistable and is either course predetermined by God in advance. Is this your position?

Ut
 
By free will, I mean that human beings are responsible for their actions, they can cooperate in the grace God offers.

Do you reject free will as an illusion? Is God’s grace, or damnation irresistable and is either course predetermined by God in advance. Is this your position?

Ut
There is a mystery in this that I do not think we can understand - God’s sovereignty and man’s will/responsibility. Consider how these line up with eachother…

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
Ex 10:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for** I have hardened his heart,** and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Then we have…

Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex 8:32 And **Pharaoh hardened his heart **at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Ultimately, God was behind the scenes but Pharaoh had a will in the matter as well. Ultimately, it is God who calls the shots…

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Hardens translates sklērunō, which literally means to make hard and metaphorically means to render stubborn and obstinate. The Exodus account of Moses’ confrontation with Pharaoh speaks ten times of God’s hardening that ruler’s heart (some of these are above). That same passage also informs us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (again - see above), confirming God’s act by his own. Such passages point up the humanly unreconcilable tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s will. Esau was rejected before he was born, and, also before he was born, Judas was appointed to betray Christ (see Acts 1:16; John 6:70–71). Yet both men themselves chose to follow sin and unbelief.
During His incarnation, Jesus clearly revealed that God’s choosing of men always precedes their choosing Him. He told a group of unbelieving Jews, “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:44). On a later occasion, He explained to His disciples, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you” (John 15:16). But He also said to unbelieving Jews, “You shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). In the familiar words of John 3:18, Jesus said that “he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Because of men’s natural and willing unbelief, God is just in condemning those who already deserve it.

🙂
 
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utunumsint:
By free will, I mean that human beings are responsible for their actions, they can cooperate in the grace God offers.
I agree that human beings are responsible for their actions, and that God’s grace equips them to walk righteously, though they don’t always do so.
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utunumsint:
Do you reject free will as an illusion?
Not if you leave the definition as what you’ve stated above; however, if you begin later to change, or add to your present definition, I may reject what you might add.
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utunumsint:
Is God’s grace, or damnation irresistable and is either course predetermined by God in advance. Is this your position?
God’s grace in the calling of the elect to salvation cannot be resisted; both courses are predetermined.
 
Linkowski:

In the “No one shall come to me except through the Father who draws him” phrase, it may help to see Jesus talking about conversion .

For no one converts unless God urges him, or…man left to his own will would not come toward God’s light; but it is man following God’s will that does this, and as God eternally wills that we come to Him, it is still up to the free will of the man to take God’s will as his own.

You wanted a yes or no answer for this, but I think it is not so simple.

God may “elect” some in that he confronts them more based on their disposition, their history, their psychology, etc. But this does not mean that he does not offer salavation to the others, nor that these “elect” have a free ride. For those “elect” have to conform to the will of God (there is another post about the excommunicated bishop of the SSPX church and whether he could be canonized; and we see the conclusion that though he lived a life of courage and values, he was not in conformity with God’s will that the Catholic Church should endure 'til the end).

Read the lives of the saints and see if they had a free ride. Most of them had lives filled or ended or both with suffering and pain, both physically and mentally, but they found joy in doing God’s will.

God bless,
Aaron Magnan
 
Ultimately, God was behind the scenes but Pharaoh had a will in the matter as well. Ultimately, it is God who calls the shots…

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

🙂
I was studying this section today. Here’s how it was addressed: (from Ignatius 2nd edition:
Divine hardening does not cause a person to sin but is a disciplinary measure for those like Pharaoh who are already stubbornly resisting God (Ex. 7:14; 8:15).
 
I was studying this section today. Here’s how it was addressed: (from Ignatius 2nd edition:
Please explain the reasoning behind the explanation…

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

There is no explanation given here that would satisfy your interpretation other than…“deal with it…God decreed it…He can do whatever He wants!”…that Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened…fo He hardens whom He wills.
 
Linkowski:

In the “No one shall come to me except through the Father who draws him” phrase, it may help to see Jesus talking about conversion .

For no one converts unless God urges him, or…man left to his own will would not come toward God’s light; but it is man following God’s will that does this, and as God eternally wills that we come to Him, it is still up to the free will of the man to take God’s will as his own.

You wanted a yes or no answer for this, but I think it is not so simple.

God may “elect” some in that he confronts them more based on their disposition, their history, their psychology, etc. But this does not mean that he does not offer salavation to the others, nor that these “elect” have a free ride. For those “elect” have to conform to the will of God (there is another post about the excommunicated bishop of the SSPX church and whether he could be canonized; and we see the conclusion that though he lived a life of courage and values, he was not in conformity with God’s will that the Catholic Church should endure 'til the end).

Read the lives of the saints and see if they had a free ride. Most of them had lives filled or ended or both with suffering and pain, both physically and mentally, but they found joy in doing God’s will.

God bless,
Aaron Magnan
We are chosen for that very purpose - to take up our cross and follow Him. The elect are not those who sit by and do nothing. They are chosen to obey and they will obey…Their salvation will be brought to completion for it has been decreed by God from the foundation of the world. There is no way to deny this scripturally speaking.
 
But, as questioned before, and I will bring it up again…Catholics (I don’t know your faith) believe that a certain elect wouldn’t exclude others from salvation…

What do you think about this?
 
The elect are the only ones that will be saved. They were elected by the grace of God from before the foundation of the world and had nothing to do with his will or his works but rests ultimately on Him who calls. It is put in many places this way…

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth😉
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So, OSAS is true for these elect…once they come to faith, they are saved…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I realize that we all do not agree on this and I do not believe that we will on this forum. So, rather than get hung up here, I would like to move onto the notion as to whether or not the non-elect can be justified/saved/declared righteous and then lose their salvation. We, as Protestants, would say that they were never saved. But, the idea of the non-elect coming to Christ (and being justified/saved) does not mesh well with certain passages. I present the first problem…See these excerpts from John…

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

This word draw means to drag (i.e. drawing water from a well). And he He will raise him up.

Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

When you put all of these scriptures together…only the elect can come to the Father. So, the idea of the non-elect (ones not given to Christ by the Father) coming to Christ in the same way that the elect do does not make sense in light of this. They were bad fish that got drawn into the net. Any thoughts?
 
Those who come to knowledge of the truth and then fall away were never saved to begin with…

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They are apostate…and as I mentioned in a previous post, “reprobate” and "in the faith are mutually exclusive…

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
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NotWorthy:
I was studying this section today. Here’s how it was addressed: (from Ignatius 2nd edition:
From Ignatius 2nd edition:
Divine hardening does not cause a person to sin but is a disciplinary measure for those like Pharaoh who are already stubbornly resisting God (Ex. 7:14; 8:15).
I agree that God’s hardening of Pharaoh did not cause Pharaoh to sin—Pharaoh was a sinner; wouldn’t you agree?

But as far as God’s hardening being a disciplinary measure, I disagree with your source. Where in the text of Rom 9:17 does the text tell us that God’s hardening of Pharaoh was to “discipline Pharaoh for stubbornly resisting God?” :confused:

The reason given in the text for the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, and also the reason given for raising up Pharaoh, according to God, was for God to demonstrate His power in Pharaoh, and that God’s name might be proclaimed in all the earth (Rom 9:17, 18). 🙂Proverbs 21:1

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.Not only is the king’s heart like channels of water in the hand of the Lord to turn it wherever He wishes, so is the heart of everyone else. 🙂
 
I’m not sure of the answer, but let me ask you (and I honestly don’t know the answer to this either):

Does God ever harden the heart of someone who was righteous before that time, or does God harden the hearts of those with previously hardened hearts only?
 
I’m not sure of the answer, but let me ask you (and I honestly don’t know the answer to this either):

Does God ever harden the heart of someone who was righteous before that time, or does God harden the hearts of those with previously hardened hearts only?
Interesting question, and one for which I don’t have a ready response.

I’m pretty tuckered out right now; let me think on it and get back to you tomorrow.
 
Interesting question, and one for which I don’t have a ready response.

I’m pretty tuckered out right now; let me think on it and get back to you tomorrow.
[sign]AMEN!!![/sign]
Good Night, my friend!!!
 
My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that we may be reading into “God hardened his heart” a little more than there is.

It’s sort of like when Paul quotes, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”. It doesn’t carry over very well into today’s language.
 
Originally Posted by Linkowski
So our election depends on man? Is that the answer that I am getting? Sorry, but I am going to ignore all of the “noise” I will call it to get the answers to my questions. We will get to some of these things later. So…it depends on man who gets chosen.

Yes or no? Simply answer one or the other.

May God Be With Us…

Quote= Catholic Dude
It depends on the RESPONSE of man, as the context says:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you. [Gen 12:3]”
-Gal 3:8 (also see Heb 11:8)

Quote= Onenow1. God does not predestine people to hell !

Gensis. 4: 6-7, Yahweh asked Cain, ’ Why are you angry and downcast ? If you are doing right surley you ought hold your head high, but if you are not doing right, sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. Yet you can still master him.

Comment: Who knows what Cain did to offend God, but offend God he did ! It was within Cains power to turn around from sin. Just as it does today. Anyway Jesus did not become man, to suffer and die to save the elect,it just doesen’t make sense.

Peace, OneNow1
 
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