check out this anti catholic blog

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t know that there’s an equal number of cases, at least the ones that I’ve seen. Normally, I don’t refer to it in numbers, though, but in right and wrong behavior, as it’s more to the point instead of saying as many of you do it as our side… In addition, is there some consistent meaning or definition among Protestants as to what OSAS means?

No, I don’t believe so. I suppose the similarities are common…but the Reformed doctrine of perseverence is markedly different from the more neo-evangelical OSAS.

Let’s please distill it down even more, forgetting the procession for now. Assuming your father to be in heaven, what’s wrong with asking him to pray for you? After all, if the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest man born of woman during Christ’s earthly ministry, why wouldn’t you want the help? Do you believe it’s wrong to ask an earthly friend to pray for you?

Ultimately it is this; forget issues of idolatry and worship. Scripture instructs us to pray for one another. It doesn’t instruct us to ask the departed to pray for us.

What I’ve seen so far too in your posts is now a bit of a blurry line regarding Mary. When does veneration (honoring) turn into idolatry?

When it turns into something we should be doing with the Triune God alone.

If you worship your father in place of God, then you’ve obviously gone over the edge. Does it go over the edge in asking him to pray for you?

Yes; because we are instructed to pray to our heavenly Father in the name of Christ and in no other way.

Does the Church Triumphant pray for the Church Militant in general before the Throne? Yes; however, they are neither omniscient nor omnipresent as these are divine attributes.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ultimately it is this; forget issues of idolatry and worship. Scripture instructs us to pray for one another. It doesn’t instruct us to ask the departed to pray for us.

If they are Saints, in heaven, do they not have eternal life?

Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Mar 9:4 (9:3) And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

When there appeared to them, Elias with Moses, were they dead?

When Christ told the one crucified on the cross next to him that, “This day thou shalt be with me in paradise”, did he mean dead in paradise?

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Who is the great cloud of witnesses the Apostle is speaking of here?

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Are not the 24 ancients delivering the prayers of the saints to the Lamb?

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

The angel tells Tobias he offered Tobias’ prayer to the Lord.

 

[MDK]

Ultimately it is this; forget issues of idolatry and worship. Scripture instructs us to pray for one another. It doesn’t instruct us to ask the departed to pray for us.

We can’t forget the issues of idolatry and worship, because that’s what’s at issue here based on your ideas of praying (talking, asking them to pray for us, etc.) to those in Heaven who are alive in Christ. Somewhere in there, you say it crosses some line into something bad, and I’m trying to find out where and what you believe here. I take it that you understand what it means that God is the God of the living and not the dead. Does Scripture tell us not to pray (not worship, but simply to ask them to pray for us) to those who are alive in Christ in Heaven? I don’t see a prohibition, nor that it would offend God.

When it turns into something we should be doing with the Triune God alone.

Okay, but we’re talking where you believe that happens. I know it’s a bit of a difficult question, but we are the Body of Christ, and that does mean we share in His mission.

Yes; because we are instructed to pray to our heavenly Father in the name of Christ and in no other way.

Where does it say that we are to pray in no other way? Secondly, what’s wrong with asking another to pray the “Our Father” on our behalf?

Does the Church Triumphant pray for the Church Militant in general before the Throne? Yes; however, they are neither omniscient nor omnipresent as these are divine attributes.

Why does one have to have divine attributes of omniscience or omnipresence to pray?

 

[TriuneUnity]

If they are Saints, in heaven, do they not have eternal life?

Yes; but they are divine and do not possess divine attributes.

When there appeared to them, Elias with Moses, were they dead?

Physically. What’s the point here?

When Christ told the one crucified on the cross next to him that, “This day thou shalt be with me in paradise”, did he mean dead in paradise?

No. I don’t see the relevance, however.

Who is the great cloud of witnesses the Apostle is speaking of here?

The martyrs who have gone before us. Paul is using imagery here to describe the number of the saints who have witnessed to the faith.

Are not the 24 ancients delivering the prayers of the saints to the Lamb?

They are offering the prayers of the saints on earth who are suffering tribulation and persecution.

 

[MDK]

I don’t fault you for your reaction, MDK. No worries. I can’t say I wouldn’t have done the same were I in your position.

It’s very decent of you. I still find that some discussion on the the line between honoring and worshiping would be beneficial.

 

[TriuneUnity]

We can’t forget the issues of idolatry and worship, because that’s what’s at issue here based on your ideas of praying (talking, asking them to pray for us, etc.) to those in Heaven who are alive in Christ. Somewhere in there, you say it crosses some line into something bad, and I’m trying to find out where and what you believe here. I take it that you understand what it means that God is the God of the living and not the dead. Does Scripture tell us not to pray (not worship, but simply to ask them to pray for us) to those who are alive in Christ in Heaven? I don’t see a prohibition, nor that it would offend God.

That would be an argument from silence. Taken to an absurd conclusion I could say Scripture doesn’t tell us to do a lot of things that you wouldn’t do in prayer. What Scripture forbids we forbid, what it commands we command.

Okay, but we’re talking where you believe that happens. I know it’s a bit of a difficult question, but we are the Body of Christ, and that does mean we share in His mission.

We do. For those who are now departed and soon will be departed that mission will conclude with the eschaton.

Where does it say that we are to pray in no other way? Secondly, what’s wrong with asking another to pray the “Our Father” on our behalf?

Same principle as before here. We have examples in Scripture of those who were innovative in worship. It usually did not end well for them.

Why does one have to have divine attributes of omniscience or omnipresence to pray?

Not to pray; but that mental prayer you offered to St. Anthony would require he be able to know your thoughts. If you verbalize it at the same time as someone 5,000 miles away, they would need to be able to “observe” this at the same time.

 

[adstrinity]

Yes; but they are divine and do not possess divine attributes.

We’re not saying they do, but, it is presupposition that the Saints in Heaven cannot hear the prayers that God lets them hear.

They are offering the prayers of the saints on earth who are suffering tribulation and persecution.

Yes, but, the prayers are not going directly to God, note. They are being delivered to God by the angels and the elders.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s very decent of you. I still find that some discussion on the the line between honoring and worshiping would be beneficial.

Prayers to and adoration of something other than God. We know that images and statues do not directly violate the 1st commandment because God commanded them to be erected. Obviously God cannot violate His own Law.

 

[TriuneUnity]

We’re not saying they do, but, it is presupposition that the Saints in Heaven cannot hear the prayers that God lets them hear.

God does not share His incommunicable attributes. That part gets technical, though.

Yes, but, the prayers are not going directly to God, note. They are being delivered to God by the angels and the elders.

Relying on apocalyptic imagery as a matter of doctrine opens a whole host of problems, though. Just look at the dispensationalists.

 

[MDK]

That would be an argument from silence. Taken to an absurd conclusion I could say Scripture doesn’t tell us to do a lot of things that you wouldn’t do in prayer. What Scripture forbids we forbid, what it commands we command.

It’s not intended that way, as it’s a step, not the whole. Let’s not take things to absurd conclusions, as I’d really like to avoid that at all costs. What about what Scriptures teach? We’re heading into doctrinal differences and authority. In that case, how do you know your interpretation is correct?

We do. For those who are now departed and soon will be departed that mission will conclude with the eschaton.

I think we’ve gotten off course here. Are you talking now about the end of the world? The original question was asking about when veneration (honoring) Mary turns into idolatry. I know it’s when one does something that should only belong to God. However, I was asking you what that is to you. An example may be the best way to describe it, because theology would be a bit involved at this time.

Same principle as before here. We have examples in Scripture of those who were innovative in worship. It usually did not end well for them.

Scripture contains examples of those who crossed the line, but it doesn’t mean that asking another to pray the “Our Father” for us is wrong. Can you please answer whether asking another to pray the “Our Father” for us is morally wrong? Would God be offended by this?

Not to pray; but that mental prayer you offered to St. Anthony would require he be able to know your thoughts. If you verbalize it at the same time as someone 5,000 miles away, they would need to be able to “observe” this at the same time.

Do the saints as people have the same limits as human people? Who says the prayer would not be delivered to St. Anthony, or that by the grace of God our prayer (discussion) reaches the intended party? Do you know what God has done here? To worship a saint in the place of God is definitely wrong, but to discuss with them… ask them to pray for you… still don’t see it as wrong.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes; but they are divine and do not possess divine attributes.

Physically. What’s the point here?

No. I don’t see the relevance, however.

You had used the phrase of praying to the “departed”, which seemed to indicate the dead. They are not dead.

The martyrs who have gone before us. Paul is using imagery here to describe the number of the saints who have witnessed to the faith.

**Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: **

That cloud of witnesses seems to have an interest in us by the underlined above. With that stated, I can see how you are interpreting this.

They are offering the prayers of the saints on earth who are suffering tribulation and persecution.

Exactly! The ancients are offering the prayers of the saints on earth. Doesn’t that seem like an intercession to you?

 

[MDK]

Prayers to and adoration of something other than God. We know that images and statues do not directly violate the 1st commandment because God commanded them to be erected. Obviously God cannot violate His own Law.

Adoration belonging to God, yes… we’re done here.

Images and statues in and of themselves… not a problem… we’re done here.

Prayer… nope. Prayer is a discussion, a talk, making request for help… we can do all those with our family… what is idolatrous about discussing with our heavenly family?

 

[adstrinity]

God does not share His incommunicable attributes. That part gets technical, though.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Relying on apocalyptic imagery as a matter of doctrine opens a whole host of problems, though. Just look at the dispensationalists.

You said/accepted/concluded that those in Heaven were offering the prayers for those on Earth to God. Is this correct?

I agreed.

It would now SEEM like you are recanting and saying we cannot be sure of this as is seen because we are not entirely sure what to make of Revelation.

Furthermore it would seem like you are basing this on the dispensationalists.

To that, as I Catholic, I must reply, that the dispensationalists came up with new doctrines that NOBODY had ever considered before 200 years ago. The Catholics have used this verse to substantiate our beliefs for well over 200 years.

I hope it goes without saying I am not trying to attack you or your beliefs in any way, but, I need to show you how this looks to me and possibly how it COULD be interpreted by some Catholics (always remember: If something CAN be interpreted one way, it WILL be interpreted that way). Also, I am genuinely interested in the logic of how God cannot share His incommunicable attributes. Even if I don’t agree with it, I would like to see it because I am not sure if I have ever heard that before. If I have, I surely do not remember it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s not intended that way, as it’s a step, not the whole. Let’s not take things to absurd conclusions, as I’d really like to avoid that at all costs. What about what Scriptures teach? We’re heading into doctrinal differences and authority. In that case, how do you know your interpretation is correct?

I don’t think it’s an issue of interpretation. One doesn’t need to interpret that there is no divine command for us to ask the dead in Christ to pray for us or benefit from “works of supererogation” and other doctrines tied in with saintly veneration. It just isn’t there.

I think we’ve gotten off course here. Are you talking now about the end of the world? The original question was asking about when veneration (honoring) Mary turns into idolatry. I know it’s when one does something that should only belong to God. However, I was asking you what that is to you. An example may be the best way to describe it, because theology would be a bit involved at this time.

Sorry…that was in response to the statement about missions. An example would be intercessory prayer, Masses, offerings to, and the doctrine of the treasury of merits would be examples specific to Catholic practice.

Scripture contains examples of those who crossed the line, but it doesn’t mean that asking another to pray the “Our Father” for us is wrong. Can you please answer whether asking another to pray the “Our Father” for us is morally wrong? Would God be offended by this?

No; again because God exhorts us to pray for one another. He does not do the same with the dead.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No; again because God exhorts us to pray for one another. He does not do the same with the dead.

They are not dead.

**Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.
**

 

[TriuneUnity]

Adoration belonging to God, yes… we’re done here.

Images and statues in and of themselves… not a problem… we’re done here.

Prayer… nope. Prayer is a discussion, a talk, making request for help… we can do all those with our family… what is idolatrous about discussing with our heavenly family?

Because we define prayer as an act of worship.

 

[TriuneUnity]

You had used the phrase of praying to the “departed”, which seemed to indicate the dead. They are not dead.

Physically dead; alive in heaven.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

That cloud of witnesses seems to have an interest in us by the underlined above. With that stated, I can see how you are interpreting this.

The laying aside of weight and sins refers to us discarding the sinful nature and pressing ahead in the Christian life.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Because we define prayer as an act of worship.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
wor·ship Audio Help /ˈwɜrʃɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wur-ship] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object) 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object) 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

Prayer can be a part of worship, but prayers in their entirety are not always worship. They are more of a communication of praise, thanks and asking. I’m not trying to argue, I am just trying to articulate the definition as I see it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Physically dead; alive in heaven.

That’s more alive than we are.

Hate to be like Reformed and edit, but I had an after thought.

Those in heaven are with God. Why is it wrong to ask them to intercede on our behalf. It’s like you want to apply for a job where a friend works, but you ask your friend to speak to the boss on your behalf first. It’s the same thing.

 

[MDK]

I don’t think it’s an issue of interpretation. One doesn’t need to interpret that there is no divine command for us to ask the dead in Christ to pray for us or benefit from “works of supererogation” and other doctrines tied in with saintly veneration. It just isn’t there.

It’s definitely a matter of interpretation. Please tell me do you consider yours reasonable, good, correct, or infallible? This is so tied into authority, that it’s going further and ignoring it will cause the conversation to degrade.

Your reference to the saints as dead in Christ is definitely wrong. They are alive in Christ, as God is the God of the living and not the dead.

Sorry…that was in response to the statement about missions. An example would be intercessory prayer, Masses, offerings to, and the doctrine of the treasury of merits would be examples specific to Catholic practice.

Thank you. I disagree, but let’s not diverge on other paths yet. Can we please go back to the original question about when veneration (honoring) Mary turns into idolatry? An example here would be appreciated.

No; again because God exhorts us to pray for one another. He does not do the same with the dead.

Once again… how are they dead? They are more alive than us.