Chicago 'womanpriest' will not be buried in Catholic cemetery

[kimmielittle]

My point: use the same shocking appeal to emotion to stop an oft-repeated illogical argument in its tracks.

Your point?
Ad hominem attacks?

Actually, it wasn’t an ad hominem attack…she was attacking your use of defense…

I don’t even need to post your credibility, since you have yet to say anything credible.

THIS IS an Ad hominem

 

[catharina]

Actually, it wasn’t an ad hominem attack…she was attacking your use of defense…

THIS IS an Ad hominem

Thank you, kimmie.

Yes - attacks on the Body of Christ? Indefensible.
Blaming another’s post? LUDICROUS.

 

[ChemicalBean]

So, tell me, are you questioning the Trinity too? I mean, IT is a mystery. So surely you’re wondering if God can’t really be a Quartet. I mean, sure the Church has TOLD us God is a Trinity, but after all, we NEED to QUESTION AUTHORITY. . .

If you aren’t questioning the Trinity, then I ‘question’ just exactly why you’re questioning the Church teaching on priesthood. . .

Sure, I have questioned the Trinity, and I more or less accept the idea. Many don’t, but it’s a teaching that I have not been called to wrestle with. My conscience at this time has not demanded a reconciliation between it and other inherent, but inconsistent teachings of the Church that resonate in my soul. If it is Truth, and absolute, unchangeable Truth, then at some, deepest and fundamental level it is not inconsistent.

In the case of women and priesthood, there are WAY too many inconsistencies between the teaching of the Church and other teachings which I am coming to hold dear, particularly with regard to the idea of vocation, baptism, gifts, Theology of the Body, and a consistent pro-life ethic. I would love to sort these things out, but it’s difficult to do so in a forum setting, what with people who are ready to attack at the first smell of dissent.

 

[kimmielittle]

Kimmie,

Yes, the woman was a practicing lesbian, but that’s beside the point. My response was to the notion that any woman who would celebrate Mass “in persona Christi” is an image of “liturgical lesbianism” - that somehow the priest cannot be a woman because women can only image brides, and there would be a bride-bride marital relationship somehow in the mass.

I see what point you are making here.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Actually, it wasn’t an ad hominem attack…she was attacking your use of defense…

THIS IS an Ad hominem

Of course it was, right up the alley with “Taking the low road?” and “Your credibility: zero”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sure, I have questioned the Trinity, and I more or less accept the idea. Many don’t, but it’s a teaching that I have not been called to wrestle with. My conscience at this time has not demanded a reconciliation between it and other inherent, but inconsistent teachings of the Church that resonate in my soul. If it is Truth, and absolute, unchangeable Truth, then at some, deepest and fundamental level it is not inconsistent.

In the case of women and priesthood, there are WAY too many inconsistencies between the teaching of the Church and other teachings which I am coming to hold dear, particularly with regard to the idea of vocation, baptism, gifts, Theology of the Body, and a consistent pro-life ethic. I would love to sort these things out, but it’s difficult to do so in a forum setting, what with people who are ready to attack at the first smell of dissent.

I don’t think it’s attack to uphold the teachings of the Church. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is pretty clear.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

CB: The teachings of the Church can be deepened, but never changed. I likewise have seen many years, and studied many things, and I see nothing in what you quoted re your studies of theology of the body, etc. which would cause me to question the teaching of the Church regarding the nature of the priesthood. The priesthood is not something to be sought for power, but is a calling to service. Historically speaking, women have always been doing service ANYWAY, whereas for men it is considered something that is from the ‘worldly view’ anyway to be a ‘lesser’ thing to engage in service. So why are women looking for the priesthood when they already have ‘more’ opportunities for service than men?

 

[kimmielittle]

Thank you, kimmie.

Yes - attacks on the Body of Christ? Indefensible.
Blaming another’s post? LUDICROUS.

 

[catharina]

Sure, I have questioned the Trinity, and I more or less accept the idea. Many don’t, but it’s a teaching that I have not been called to wrestle with. My conscience at this time has not demanded a reconciliation between it and other inherent, but inconsistent teachings of the Church that resonate in my soul. If it is Truth, and absolute, unchangeable Truth, then at some, deepest and fundamental level it is not inconsistent.

In the case of women and priesthood, there are WAY too many inconsistencies between the teaching of the Church and other teachings which I am coming to hold dear, particularly with regard to the idea of vocation, baptism, gifts, Theology of the Body, and a consistent pro-life ethic. I would love to sort these things out, but it’s difficult to do so in a forum setting, what with people who are ready to attack at the first smell of dissent.

Vulgar attacks in the Body of Christ are not “dissent.”
They are way past dissent and entering another area.

Your message to all, with every post: “You can accomplish more with a kind word and a shillelagh than you can with just a kind word.” Guess you don’t really mean it, huh?

 

[catharina]

I don’t think it’s attack to uphold the teachings of the Church. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is pretty clear.

AGREE.

(Of course.)

 

[ChemicalBean]

Our Lord, the Body of Christ, The Mass, priests … and your full disrespect.

Hey, I only quoted you.
My credibility is intact. Yours … ?

You attack the Body of Christ.

I defend the Body of Christ, pointing to your astounding vulgarity.

Very straightforward. Not ad hominem at all.

Uh, try reading my posts again before you fly off the handle. NOWHERE have I addressed “our Lord” and “the Body of Christ”, least of all “with full disrespect”. I happen to have great respect for the Mass and priests or I wouldn’t get so upset when I see people making illogical statements about it.

Perhaps you should re-read the post (#81) I originally replied to, and call him/her vulgar as well.

SunnaB16:

Among other things, the CATHOLIC CHURCH is the Bride of Christ.
Christ, the Bridegroom gives Life to His Bride chiefly through the Mass and the Sacraments,
The priest takes the place of the Bridegroom…
There`s the MARITAL imagery.
A WOMAN CANNOT TAKE THE PLACE OF THE BRIDEGROOM!!! LITURGICAL LESBIANISM!!! FULL STOP!!! Invalid in any case.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to shake some dust from my feet and move on to the next house.

 

[kimmielittle]

Of course it was, right up the alley with “Taking the low road?” and “Your credibility: zero”

The very fact that it was not a Catholic Mass but presented as such, by her…brings ridicule to the whole of what she did… in said mass.

A witch doctor saying a mass…is still not a Mass

She consciously chose to become the agent of scandal.

Her ridicule of the Church through this act … and the acts of active homosexual behavior

 

[catharina]

On the subject of marital imagery:

If there is a Bridegroom (priest), must not there also be a Bride? If Jesus is the Bridegroom, represented by the priest, and the Church is the Bride, who represents “her”?

The lay faithful?

Aren’t males part of the lay faithful?

But how CAN this be?! Surely a man is not capable of taking the place of the bride! That’s liturgical, uh, gay-ism! FULL STOP!! The Mass has been invalid for centuries!!

What about when a priest says a private mass with no faithful present? What then? No Bride at all? That’s liturgical masturbation! FULL STOP AGAIN!!

Can we finally put the “bridegroom argument” against women and priesthood to rest? It’s illogical and only obscures matters.

The Bride is the Body of Christ. For you, it’s available for mockery. Vulgar mockery.

Sunna is not an American. I’ve no idea what the standard is for his/her country, what exposure and example has led to the statements made by Sunna. If you wish to correct Sunna’s approach, do so. Don’t imitate him/her.

So now you''re leaving the kitchen?  It got too hot for you in here?  So be it.
Do what you can to raise the standards on CA, not lower them.  Really.

 

[catharina]

The very fact that it was not a Catholic Mass but presented as such, by her…brings ridicule to the whole of what she did… in said mass.

A witch doctor saying a mass…is still not a Mass

She consciously chose to become the agent of scandal.

Her ridicule of the Church through this act … and the acts of active homosexual behavior

The story of that woman - and her death - are horrible.
A new low in behavior that cannot be defended.
Supporting such ridicule of the Church - very bad.

 

[catharina]

Uh, try reading my posts again before you fly off the handle. NOWHERE have I addressed “our Lord” and “the Body of Christ”, least of all “with full disrespect”. I happen to have great respect for the Mass and priests or I wouldn’t get so upset when I see people making illogical statements about it.

Perhaps you should re-read the post (#81) I originally replied to, and call him/her vulgar as well.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to shake some dust from my feet and move on to the next house.

Sunna’s words addressed in post 112, at your request.
Amazing to me that you still defend your own words.
Bye now, I guess.

 

[ChemicalBean]

CB: The teachings of the Church can be deepened, but never changed. I likewise have seen many years, and studied many things, and I see nothing in what you quoted re your studies of theology of the body, etc. which would cause me to question the teaching of the Church regarding the nature of the priesthood. The priesthood is not something to be sought for power, but is a calling to service. Historically speaking, women have always been doing service ANYWAY, whereas for men it is considered something that is from the ‘worldly view’ anyway to be a ‘lesser’ thing to engage in service. So why are women looking for the priesthood when they already have ‘more’ opportunities for service than men?

Well, I DO see grave inconsistencies there, and as I say I would love to hold a rational conversation about it, free from emotional attacks and others trying to attribute words to me which I have never said, nor implied.

Priesthood is a specific call to service, and we do hope that those who seek it are responding to a call to serve in a ministerial-priestly way and not lusting after power. I suppose when it comes down to it, there are women who sense an interior call to serve the Church by being sacramentally more configured to the image of Christ, to celebrate the Eucharist as priest, to offer the absolution of Christ to penitents, to administer the Sacraments to the sick and bring healing comfort in their last hours, to proclaim the Gospel at mass and to preach, etc. Basically, to be “stewards of the treasury of the Church and its mysteries.”

In the case of the woman who passed, she sensed a call to this service, and this service was validated by a community of faithful, just not the RCC. How painful and ironic it must have been for her to live most authentically, and yet separated from the Church and traditions that she probably loved. The Holy Spirit was probably speaking to the world through her in this capacity, yet in a very real sense the Church “aborted” her priestly vocation, as it has countless others, including a Doctor of the Church.

How similar it is for us to pray “send us children, but they have to be healthy, and look like us, and arrive on our schedule, and, and…” and also “send us priests, but they have to be male, and be unmarried, and be straight, and be psychologically perfect, and be capable of getting a Master’s degree, and, and…”! I think our “culture of death” has extended to not only procreation but to Church vocations and we are too stubborn to realize it or admit it.

 

[catharina]

Well, I DO see grave inconsistencies there, and as I say I would love to hold a rational conversation about it, free from emotional attacks and others trying to attribute words to me which I have never said, nor implied.

Priesthood is a specific call to service, and we do hope that those who seek it are responding to a call to serve in a ministerial-priestly way and not lusting after power. I suppose when it comes down to it, there are women who sense an interior call to serve the Church by being sacramentally more configured to the image of Christ, to celebrate the Eucharist as priest, to offer the absolution of Christ to penitents, to administer the Sacraments to the sick and bring healing comfort in their last hours, to proclaim the Gospel at mass and to preach, etc. Basically, to be “stewards of the treasury of the Church and its mysteries.”

In the case of the woman who passed, she sensed a call to this service, and this service was validated by a community of faithful, just not the RCC. How painful and ironic it must have been for her to live most authentically, and yet separated from the Church and traditions that she probably loved. The Holy Spirit was probably speaking to the world through her in this capacity, yet in a very real sense the Church “aborted” her priestly vocation, as it has countless others, including a Doctor of the Church.

How similar it is for us to pray “send us children, but they have to be healthy, and look like us, and arrive on our schedule, and, and…” and also “send us priests, but they have to be male, and be unmarried, and be straight, and be psychologically perfect, and be capable of getting a Master’s degree, and, and…”! I think our “culture of death” has extended to not only procreation but to Church vocations and we are too stubborn to realize it or admit it.

Absolute fantasy and with a total disregard for the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, I DO see grave inconsistencies there, and as I say I would love to hold a rational conversation about it, free from emotional attacks and others trying to attribute words to me which I have never said, nor implied.

Priesthood is a specific call to service, and we do hope that those who seek it are responding to a call to serve in a ministerial-priestly way and not lusting after power. I suppose when it comes down to it, there are women who sense an interior call to serve the Church by being sacramentally more configured to the image of Christ, to celebrate the Eucharist as priest, to offer the absolution of Christ to penitents, to administer the Sacraments to the sick and bring healing comfort in their last hours, to proclaim the Gospel at mass and to preach, etc. Basically, to be “stewards of the treasury of the Church and its mysteries.” But even if they ‘feel’ a call, is it a call from God? Would God say, "This is for men, for a reason you cannot understand but which I ask you to accept in faith that I, who am Love incarnate, make this decision? and then turn around and give women a ‘call’ knowing that they cannot answer it? If the women hear a ‘call’, is it not FAR more likely to be from an EVIL spirit seeking (as he so often does) to turn a ‘good impulse’ (for service) and ‘twisting’ that impulse to make it seem as though what has been said is not moral or licit is somehow to be done ANYWAY? How often do we hear men and women bleating that even though the object of their ‘love’ is forbidden, that 'the power of LOVE transcends these ‘petty’ moral things, and “Love” makes nothing forbidden, yadda yadda.

In the case of the woman who passed, she sensed a call to this service, and this service was validated by a community of faithful, Hold on, sugar, ‘validating’ something has absolutely nothing to do with whether that something is morally just or licit. A 'community of ‘faith’ful’ has no authority to ‘validate’ something which has been presented as morally illicit. A community of faithful can ‘validate’ everything from gay marriage to abortion, but that doesn’t make either ‘valid’. just not the RCC. How painful and ironic it must have been for her to live most authentically,you CANNOT be authentic when you dissent. She ‘felt’ more authentic, but she was totally rejecting the Church she supposedly wanted to service and yet separated from the Church and traditions that she probably loved. I pity her but she did the separating, not the Church, The Holy Spirit was probably speaking to the world through her in this capacity, yet in a very real sense the Church “aborted” her priestly vocation, as it has countless others, including a Doctor of the Church. I see you do not accept the authority of the Church. PRobably speaking? If the Holy Spirit wants to speak, then speak He will, and ‘unclouded’. He has. . .but this poor woman DID NOT LISTEN.

How similar it is for us to pray “send us children, but they have to be healthy, and look like us, and arrive on our schedule, and, and…” and also “send us priests, but they have to be male, and be unmarried, and be straight, and be psychologically perfect, and be capable of getting a Master’s degree, and, and…”! I think our “culture of death” has extended to not only procreation but to Church vocations and we are too stubborn to realize it or admit it.

Your opinions are your opinions. But I’ll stick with Church teachings. Your suppositions above likewise are your opinion; I do not believe that they at all are analogous to the subject.

 

[catharina]

Your opinions are your opinions. But I’ll stick with Church teachings. Your suppositions above likewise are your opinion; I do not believe that they at all are analogous to the subject.

**
Always, we are to embrace and support the teachings of the Church.

Any call against the teachings of the Church can NOT be a call form God.

It is that simple. (Simplicity, the virtue whose opposite is duplicity.)**

 

[kimmielittle]

in a very real sense the Church “aborted” her priestly vocation, as it has countless others, including a Doctor of the Church.

I have to challenge this statement. How does one abort something not there?

It was not the Church that turned her away…it was Her… that turned away from the Church teachings. And was unrepentantly practicing against those Church teachings…till her final days.