Child not getting married in the church

[TC3033]

Because the couple will think they are supporting marriage outside the Church

So the Church does say that you must tell them?

You dont believe Catholic Teaching

That has nothing, zero, zip zilch to do with it. I told you two instances from my Catholic family. One where they didn’t attend the wedding and two where they did, along with the outcomes of said decisions.

 

[Ammi]

So the Church does say that you must tell them?

The Church has not addressed the issue, because circumstances.

Here is something from an article with a comment from a priest who is formation adviser and assistant professor of philosophical ethics and sacred moral theology at St. John Vianney Seminary in Denver…

According to Father Perez-Lopez, this whole issue demands an exercise of the virtue of prudence. A great number of important circumstances may change the moral scenario. On the one hand, one certainly wants to avoid cooperation in evil and scandal. “By attending these marriages, you don’t want to give the impression that you approve of their not following the canonical form of marriage,” he said. “You need to make it clear you do not agree with that. Moreover, one should avoid being an active participant of the ceremony.”

 

[TC3033]

Here is something from an article with a comment from a priest who is formation adviser and assistant professor of philosophical ethics and sacred moral theology at St. John Vianney Seminary in Denver…

So then, he speaks for the Church and all priests, etc…, or is it one opinion?

 

[Ammi]

Find one that contradicts him. And he is not simply a priest, but formation adviser and assistant professor of philosophical ethics and sacred moral theology at St. John Vianney Seminary!

 

[TC3033]

I don’t need to. You posted the link that there’s no law/rule against attendance.

 

[Ammi]

Two significant things:

1.) I have defended against the accusation that we must attend or else we are responsible for ruining the relationship, being unloving, and being judgmental. Those have been YOUR accusation.

2.) One can attend, under conditions of prudence, which must accompany an effort to express to the couple that marrying outside the Church is invalid and not supported, but attendance is out of support for the couple to reconcile with the Church.

 

[TC3033]

I have defended against the accusation that we must attend or else we are responsible for ruining the relationship, being unloving, and being judgmental.

I said that’s a potential consequence.

Those have been YOUR accusation.

It’s not an accusation…I’ve seen it happen.

which must accompany an effort to express to the couple that marrying outside the Church is invalid and not supported, but attendance is out of support for the couple to reconcile with the Church.

Per which law?

 

[Ammi]

I said that’s a potential consequence.

Even a potential consequence is not the responsibility or the fault of a person refraining from a bad choice. You have made it out to be, by the accusations of “unloving” and “judgmental” and “ruining”.

Per which law?

It’s the law of common sense. If you dont want the perception of supporting the ceremony (of which the purpose of an invitation is to support and celebrate), then conveying the opposite is necessary.

 

[Psalm30]

But, if you were to do that and still show up in support of “them”, I think that would go a long way in keeping and even strengthening the relationship.

I think that’s what @Psalm30 was trying to get at.

Yes, that’s exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

 

[QContinuum]

As a mildly interested non-Catholic observer here, I have a couple of questions.

1. Won’t the pandemic mean most Churches be closed to services like weddings for a while? Maybe this will give time for both sides to contemplate their quarrel with each other.
2. Can the bride and groom not have a private wedding ceremony with the priest and then have a large non-Church celebration elsewhere?
3. If the pandemic continues to disrupt life as we know it for months, is possible that Catholic Canon law on marriage be changed to accommodate that for the duration?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[TC3033]

Won’t the pandemic mean most Churches be closed to services like weddings for a while?

Not necessarily. I believe it’s common practice for the Church to continue with sacraments. It would just be a MUCH smaller ceremony

Can the bride and groom not have a private wedding ceremony with the priest and then have a large non-Church celebration elsewhere?

Sure, Priest and two witnesses is all you need.

If the pandemic continues to disrupt life as we know it for months, is possible that Catholic Canon law on marriage be changed to accommodate that for the duration?

Not sure of the question.

 

[TC3033]

Then, I think for the most part…we’re done here.

 

[QContinuum]

Not sure of the question

I just meant that marriage was not always considered a sacrament in the CC. And laws regarding how the faithful contracted marriage changed. I’m saying that if the Church wanted to it could waive the requirement to be married in the Church temporarily given the pandemic.

 

[Psalm30]

I just meant that marriage was not always considered a sacrament in the CC. And laws regarding how the faithful contracted marriage changed. I’m saying that if the Church wanted to it could waive the requirement to be married in the Church temporarily given the pandemic.

That’s a good question. I would guess probably not, since marrying in the Church doesn’t require being in a gathering of 50 or more, in close contact. You just have to be in a Catholic Church with a priest and two witnesses.

 

[QContinuum]

Ok, thanks Psalm for the answer!

 

[Ammi]

As a mildly interested non-Catholic observer here, I have a couple of questions.

1. Won’t the pandemic mean most Churches be closed to services like weddings for a while? Maybe this will give time for both sides to contemplate their quarrel with each other.
2. Can the bride and groom not have a private wedding ceremony with the priest and then have a large non-Church celebration elsewhere?
3. If the pandemic continues to disrupt life as we know it for months, is possible that Catholic Canon law on marriage be changed to accommodate that for the duration?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

1.) As was mentioned, strictly speaking a marriage doesn’t require many people. But also, I dont think the issue is about any quarrels. The Church ensures marriage candidates are free to marry, have had some instruction on marriage, have related proper vows, and are properly witnessed and recorded as married. These can be complicated when couples are marrying at random, to unknown candidates, and in unknown places. Remember, dispensations to these are afforded, when the couple inquires and assures the Church of the proper and reverent situation. It’s not about any indifference to any other institution.

2.) I dont believe a second ceremony is permitted. I’m not positive, but I seem to remember that.

3.) Certain things may be changed, yes. But it probably wont be necessary because of the virus situation.

 

[Ammi]

The Church always considered marriage a Sacrament. She professes that Christ raised it to that status.

It was not defined as a Sacrament until 1184.

“The first official declaration that marriage is a sacrament was made at the 1184 Council of Verona as part of a condemnation of the Cathars.”

 

[Ammi]

TC3033:

But, if you were to do that and still show up in support of “them”, I think that would go a long way in keeping and even strengthening the relationship.

I think that’s what @Psalm30 was trying to get at.

Yes, that’s exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

I have not argued it’s not possible to attend. I have related the conditions with which one would need to attend. And defended against false accusation against someone who chooses not to attend.

And it doesnt come from me. I have shared reliable resources to support those conditions.

 

[Psalm30]

defended against false accusation against someone who chooses not to attend.

Honestly…with all charity, this is starting to bug me.

It’s simple cause and effect.

Close relative doesn’t attend invalid wedding. Bride/groom’s feelings are hurt because of it, so much so that they break off the relationship.

Not a threat. Not bullying. Not anti-Catholic. Not an accusation. It is a fact.

 

[QContinuum]

My point was perhaps this whole pandemic thing will force both parties to cool down. Even if the daughter agreed to get married tomorrow in the church, the church can’t accommodate a typical wedding party right now. And, as you said, maybe explore the options for dispensation?

I used the word “celebration” not “ceremony.” Different connotations.

Also, I’m not so concerned about when the church recognized marriage as a sacrament. I’m interested in the fact that Canon laws with regard to marriage can and have changed. If the pandemic passes by relatively quickly, I think you’re right that nothing will change on that front. I am curious what the church may do if preventative measures and restrictions on gatherings stretch out to 12 months or more.

That’s a lot of restless brides and grooms.