Child not getting married in the church

[Ammi]

The effect may occur. What I have defended, is the accusations that the one who refrains from the ceremony is responsible for the potential ruining of the relationship, guilty of being unloving, or being judgmental on the basis of merely not attending a wedding which constitutes an in impediment to the grace of marriage.

The couple who are rejecting the Church must take responsibility for their own actions.

If Catholics choose to attend and convey they do not support the ceremony but will attend in Hope’s the relationship seeks validity, and the couple still desire their attendance, then that is all acceptable.

 

[TC3033]

is the accusations that the one who refrains from the ceremony is responsible for the potential ruining of the relationship, guilty of being unloving, or being judgmental on the basis of merely not attending a wedding which constitutes an in impediment to the grace of marriage.

Nobody has accused that. What we have said is that, actions speak louder than words and the non-attendance of a couple’s big day can defiantly be construed as being unloving or judgmental and put a serious strain or break in a relationship unnecessarily as there is no rule against attendance.

I’m not sure why this is so hard to get across.

If Catholics choose to attend and convey they do not support the ceremony but will attend in Hope’s the relationship seeks validity

Why? There is no rule that says they have to…correct?

 

[Ammi]

What some people construe is their own wrong judgment. If the Catholic wishes to attend, and relates the disapproval of the ceremony, but hope’s the best of the relationship, then offense taken is out of line. The couple are attempting to coerce fellow Catholics to approve of something against the Catholic faith.

 

[Psalm30]

The couple are attempting to coerce fellow Catholics to approve of something against the Catholic faith.

Actually, they probably just want their loved one at their invalid wedding. Especially if it’s a daughter and her mother.

What some people construe is their own wrong judgment. If the Catholic wishes to attend, and relates the disapproval of the ceremony, but hope’s the best of the relationship, then offense taken is out of line.

Yes, I actually do agree with this. But I thought we were talking about not attending the wedding at all, not expressing disapproval while still attending.

 

[Ammi]

Actually, they probably just want their loved one at their invalid wedding. Especially if it’s a daughter and her mother.

Do you really think the couple believes its invalid?

Yes, I actually do agree with this. But I thought we were talking about not attending the wedding at all, not expressing disapproval while still attending.

A Catholic has two options

1.) Refrain from the ceremony (while conveying it is in order not to support the ceremony, while hoping the relationship seeks God’s grace).

2.) Attend the ceremony (while conveying it is in order to not support the ceremony, but hoping the relationship seeks God’s grace).

Both are acceptable, and would not constitute sin, or contempt, or lack of charity, or responsibility for ruining a relationship.

 

[Psalm30]

Do you really think the couple believes its invalid?

What’s that got to do with anything? Of course the couple doesn’t think it’s invalid. That goes without saying. If they thought it was invalid they’d be getting married in the Church like they’re supposed to!

A Catholic has two options

1.) Refrain from the ceremony (while conveying it is in order not to support the ceremony, while hoping the relationship seeks God’s grace).

2.) Attend the ceremony (while conveying it is in order to not support the ceremony, but hoping the relationship seeks God’s grace).

Here we agree.

Both are acceptable, and would not constitute sin

If we’re talking in objective terms, then we agree. The actions in and of themselves are not sinful in nature.

or contempt, or lack of charity, or responsibility for ruining a relationship.

Here we disagree. Not attending the wedding (valid or not) of a loved one can and does cause contempt, possibly lack of charity, and can ruin the relationship. Not always but it is possible.

 

[Ammi]

What’s that got to do with anything? Of course the couple doesn’t think it’s invalid. That goes without saying. If they thought it was invalid they’d be getting married in the Church like they’re supposed to!

So why do they want their loved ones at the ceremony? Is it not to support and celebrate that ceremony with them? Of course it is! That is why the Catholic being invited must convey they do not support or celebrate the ceremony, but hope the best for the relationship, and that they reconcile and receive God’s grace.

Here we disagree. Not attending the wedding (valid or not) of a loved one can and does cause contempt, possibly lack of charity, and can ruin the relationship. Not always but it is possible.

Yes, we disagree. Refraining from the ceremony in itself does not mean these things exist. If they exist, it is because the relationship and faith of both is poor. The Catholic marrying outside the Church (saving extraordinary conditions) is denying its relationship with the Church first and foremost (culpability and blame worthiness aside). And the friend invited, who may be unloving or judgmental, is not being that way on account of refraining from the ceremony, but because they are interiorly choosing to do so already.

 

[Psalm30]

So why do they want their loved ones at the ceremony?

Because they are mature adults who believe people can disagree on certain things and make different choices in life without severing the relationship with a loved one who disagrees with their choices, especially if it’s a close loved one, like a parent. To them their loved one being at the ceremony would mean Mom/Dad/whoever doesn’t agree with or approve of my choices, nor do I agree with Mom/Dad/whoever or the Catholic Church they believe in, but we still care about each other and want to be in each other’s lives. What about this is so hard to understand?

Yes, we disagree. Refraining from the ceremony in itself does not mean these things exist. If they exist, it is because the relationship and faith of both is poor. The Catholic marrying outside the Church (saving extraordinary conditions) is denying its relationship with the Church first and foremost (culpability and blame worthiness aside). And the friend invited, who may be unloving or judgmental, is not being that way on account of refraining from the ceremony, but because they are interiorly choosing to do so already.

Yes, I do actually agree with this. However, at the risk of beating a dead horse, your statements upthread accusing people of bullying, threatening, and being anti-Catholic were unwarranted, especially when even you agree, now, that it is possible that not attending the invalid wedding can cause hurt feelings. I agree that in and of itself not attending isn’t wrong, but you were way over the top in the responses you made to the other posters, many of whom are faithful Catholics who uphold the Faith and love the Church.

 

[Ammi]

Because they are mature adults who believe people can disagree on certain things and make different choices in life without severing the relationship with a loved one who disagrees with their choices, especially if it’s a close loved one, like a parent. To them their loved one being at the ceremony would mean Mom/Dad/whoever doesn’t agree with or approve of my choices, nor do I agree with Mom/Dad/whoever or the Catholic Church they believe in, but we still care about each other and want to be in each other’s lives. What about this is so hard to understand?

I understand the mentality. But we are called to uphold our convictions. We are called to support the faith in Christ first and foremost. Christ is not opposed to loving family or friends. Quite the contrary. But He, Himself, knows and has told us that following Him sometimes causes division with parents, siblings, or friends. If one of these wishes you to attend a ceremony they know is opposed to our faith in Jesus, then they should understand the dilemma it raises.

Like Father Pacwa says, “Are they trying to put me in an uncomfortable position to prove their point? Or do they simply not see that there is an issue at stake?”

I think it is lost on some posters, that attending a wedding is viewed and understood as supporting, approving, and celebrating that ceremony! In order to separate from this view, there has to be communication. The couple marrying, is hoping the person invited will accept the wedding. It makes no sense to think otherwise. And a sincere Catholic attending, is hoping the couple reconciles the sin of participating in the ceremony! There is profound division here! Many Catholic parents are able to tell their son or daughter, that they cannot attend the ceremony on account of the perceived support. And it’s a sad moment for them to witness, because they truly believe it is an act of rejecting the faith, while calling it a good and special day! They still have profound love for their son or daughter, but choose to show that in ways other than attending what they know to be an act of denying grace.

Yes, I do actually agree with this. However, at the risk of beating a dead horse, your statements upthread accusing people of bullying, threatening, and being anti-Catholic were unwarranted, especially when even you agree, now, that it is possible that not attending the invalid wedding can cause hurt feelings. I agree that in and of itself not attending isn’t wrong, but you were way over the top in the responses you made to the other posters, many of whom are faithful Catholics who uphold the Faith and love the Church.

Yes, I certainly will defend the choice to refrain from an invalid wedding. And I am offended when people accuse those who do, as being unloving, judgmental, or having contempt for the couple and even being the cause of ruining the relationship.

If that happens, strictly on account t of the Catholic refraining from the wedding ceremony, that is definitely the decision of the couple who is wrongly expecting others to attend a ceremony they believe to be denying Grace from Jesus!

 

[Phemie]

Mike_from_NJ:

Another fact that might explain some things: Let’s say the daughter decides to please her mother and have the ceremony in a Catholic church. The priest is going to ask some questions.

1. Do you believe in God?
2. Are you a faithful Catholic?
3. Do you agree to raise your future children in the Catholic faith?

Without any rleation with the original topic

I don’t think question 1 will be asked. At least when we married this question was not asked dircetly by the priest nor the question of our beliefs was not asked in group. It is obvious that in many couple one or maybe both are not believers even if they are baptized. That’s does not prevent a Church marriage.

1. Not asked anymore. The vast majorityof people who marry in the Church does not practiced their faith. Maybe nt even on Christmas. Does not prevent the Chuch to baptized them. In an pulpit our pastor said that one time that the next sunday we will welome fiancees during the mass. He precised that they do not attend their community at all but we should welcomed them because they have ask for a Church weedind despite their lack of engagement in the Church.
2. Usually all that are requiered is to be agree that the children would be enrolled in catechism lessons when the time come… No more.

I don’t think any of those questions are asked when the bride and groom are both Catholic. At least they are not part of the formal “Prenuptial Investigation”.

They are, however, asked

1. whether they are coming to the sacrament of their own free will without any kind of coercion,
2. if they believe that marriage is until death and intend to be faithful,
3. if they intend to accept any children that God may send them.

If it’s a mixed-marriage or a disparity of cult marriage, the Catholic parties are further asked to sincerely promise that marrying a non-Catholic will not cause them to lose their own faith and that they will do all in their power to baptize any children they are blessed with and raise them in the Catholic faith. The non-Catholic is informed of the promise and its implications.

The decree from the CCCB respecting the prescriptions of cc. 1125 & 1126 of the Code of Canon law states:

"Decree No. 34
5. The celebration of a mixed-marriage cannot be authorized in those cases where it is clearly evident that the Catholic party is not sincere in making the promises or refuses to make them.

 

[Psalm30]

Your tone, your over the top accusations (being anti-Catholic, most especially), and your leap to accuse people of approving of invalid marriages when they were merely stating their own experiences of people being offended by loved ones not attending their invalid weddings are what was uncalled for. Thomas and Elf share your views, but they communicated their stances much more respectfully. Your brothel comment was also quite unnecessary and over the top.

Notice that, toward the end of the thread, when you calmed down, I was actually able to see that our opinions on the matter aren’t as different as I originally perceived.

 

[Ammi]

Notice this is your implied accusation:

To them their loved one being at the ceremony would mean Mom/Dad/whoever doesn’t agree with or approve of my choices, nor do I agree with Mom/Dad/whoever or the Catholic Church they believe in, but we still care about each other and want to be in each other’s lives. What about this is so hard to understand?

You see the bolded? This is implying that refraining from the ceremony means they dont care about them or want to be in their lives!

This is wrong to accuse someone merely because they are refraining from an invalid ceremony.

You are saying that because the couple might not accept that refraining from the ceremony is based on the difficulty of witnessing an invalid wedding being celebrated, they are responsible for not caring or wanting to be in their lives! I say, not cool!

 

[QContinuum]

Ammi, I don’t think it’s a particularly healthy response for family members to threaten each other over such matters either. I understand your position of not appreciating the implied coercion of either attending something you consider a farce or face censure.

I do think, as a non-Catholic, the goal should be some kind of compromise. Maybe a small private ceremony with the priest, and then a later celebration elsewhere.

I think maybe this thread has lost sight of the original post though. It seems to me that the marriage issue is a symptom, not a cause of the rift. The OP has described a situation where the daughter has felt some degree of parental abandonment, emotionally speaking.

It is this reason, I should think, that would be the true cause of any future distancing and resentment. Even if the parents attend, this will not solve the deeper issue. And that is the daughter does not feel the parents really care about HER more than their church activities (I am not speaking of their required attendence or other mandatory practices, but their volunteer work for the diocese that is prioritized over their children).

So, if this were me, I would likely see the refusal to attend my wedding as another example of my parents choosing other things over me. With that understanding, the parents should not be surprised if the daughter reciprocates what she perceives as avoidance by her parents and minimizes contact with them.

In this sense, the daughter’s alienation from the parents is less about punishment and more about protecting herself from future disappointing situations where her parents again choose other things before her. It’s self-protection rather than an attack on the parents.

But I think this is the situation is one to be avoided. I would strongly recommend this family receive some therapy together.

 

[Psalm30]

You see the bolded? This is implying that refraining from the ceremony means they dont care about them or want to be in their lives!

No. It doesn’t objectively imply that refraining from the ceremony means they dont care about them or want to be in their lives. But that’s not going to stop the bride/groom from perceiving it that way. Especially if a bride/groom is nominally Catholic and/or simply doesn’t agree with or accept the Church’s laws.

And it’s not an accusation to tell someone that a person might be offended if you don’t attend their invalid ceremony. It’s stating a fact.

This is wrong to accuse someone merely because they are refraining from an invalid ceremony.

Over and over, you refer to this as an “accusation,” when it simply isn’t. It baffles me that you are not able to see that. Just because something isn’t inherently wrong or evil doesn’t mean it isn’t going to be offensive to someone. No, in and of itself, it isn’t “wrong” to not go to the ceremony. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t going to offend someone. Why is that so hard to understand?

And once again: It’s not accusatory, wrong, anti-Catholic, threatening, or bullying to say this may happen. It’s stating a fact.

You are saying that because the couple might not accept that refraining from the ceremony is based on the difficulty of witnessing an invalid wedding being celebrated, they are responsible for not caring or wanting to be in their lives! I say, not cool!

Nope. I’m not saying they are “responsible for not caring or wanting to be in their lives.” I am saying it’s a possible outcome that the bride/groom are going to end the relationship because their loved one didn’t attend the wedding.

Once more: Not an accusation. Not a threat. Not bullying. Not anti-Catholic. Just stating a fact.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi, I don’t think it’s a particularly healthy response for family members to threaten each other over such matters either. I understand your position of not appreciating the implied coercion of either attending something you consider a farce or face censure.

Very well said.

I do think, as a non-Catholic, the goal should be some kind of compromise. Maybe a small private ceremony with the priest, and then a later celebration elsewhere.

Well that would no longer be an invalid marriage. So that would be great. But obviously that is a very different situation than a wedding apart from the Church.

I think maybe this thread has lost sight of the original post though. It seems to me that the marriage issue is a symptom, not a cause of the rift. The OP has described a situation where the daughter has felt some degree of parental abandonment, emotionally speaking.

Again, I agree very much! The issue is the relationship apart from the wedding.

It is this reason, I should think, that would be the true cause of any future distancing and resentment. Even if the parents attend, this will not solve the deeper issue. And that is the daughter does not feel the parents really care about HER more than their church activities (I am not speaking of their required attendence or other mandatory practices, but their volunteer work for the diocese that is prioritized over their children).

Yes. The issue is still present, and the wedding is not the platform to fix things. Family counseling could possibly help.

So, if this were me, I would likely see the refusal to attend my wedding as another example of my parents choosing other things over me. With that understanding, the parents should not be surprised if the daughter reciprocates what she perceives as avoidance by her parents and minimizes contact with them.

Yes. If I we’re the parents, I would focus on the relationship. Work on communication and sorrow for parental failings.

In this sense, the daughter’s alienation from the parents is less about punishment and more about protecting herself from future disappointing situations where her parents again choose other things before her. It’s self-protection rather than an attack on the parents.

As a Catholic, i hope the daughter sees past her parents faults. Her parents arent the measure of the faith. The measure of the faith, are the Teachings and beliefs. The faults of our brothers and sisters should be admonished, but forgiven at the same time! That’s the Christian challenge!

But I think this is the situation is one to be avoided. I would strongly recommend this family receive some therapy together.

Agree.

 

[Ammi]

What you are portraying, is an ultimatum. Come to my wedding, even though it hurts your heart, or we might no longer be friends! As QContinuum expressed, it’s a threat, a coersion. Attend, or face censure!

It’s a childish thing. Like throwing a fit because they dont get what they want, and a parent caving into it. Only this is not a child, but a mature adult!

If the relationship is bad, then deal with it apart from a wedding that goes against someone else’s faith.

 

[Psalm30]

What you are portraying, is an ultimatum. Come to my wedding, even though it hurts your heart, or we might no longer be friends! As QContinuum expressed, it’s a threat, a coersion. Attend, or face censure!

I don’t entirely disagree. But the point I’m trying to make is it’s not a threat or accusation or anti-Catholic to tell someone that the couple might be offended, as you accused the other posters of doing. It’s stating a fact. Can you see that this is the point I’m trying to make?

 

[Ammi]

Btw, I am not saying there arent some circumstances which I might attend.

 

[QContinuum]

As a Catholic, i hope the daughter sees past her parents faults. Her parents arent the measure of the faith. The measure of the faith, are the Teachings and beliefs. The faults of our brothers and sisters should be admonished, but forgiven at the same time! That’s the Christian challenge!

In order for her to separate her parents from the question of faith, she needs to do just that - talk to them apart from and outside any church context. I agree that the question of what she believes should be a separate issue, but emotionally they are all tied together. For this, the parents have responsibility as well. The parents have failed to communicate to her (and possibly to her siblings) her importance to them. There’s no way the daughter will be able to properly analyze her beliefs about the Catholic faith until she resolves the emotional pain she has suffered from her parents’ emotional neglect.

That’s why they really need to seek out a skilled family therapist. To reestablish the lines of communication and heal their relationship before they add even more anger and pain over a disagreement about a wedding. As you said, the marriage is not a bandaid. If I were this girl’s friend, I would say heal your relationship first with your parents to help YOURSELF. Because you’re going to need a supportive family to help you with your own marriage and family.

 

[Ammi]

I think you need to re-read those supposed posts. I have tried to be quite accurate in what I was defending. The accusation the someone refraining from attendance is unloving, judgmental, or causing the ruin of the relationship.

Of course I realize this might be the perception of the couple. But that would be dysfunction and a false judgment. And we shouldn’t be coerced into attending something awkward and painful out of fear that they wont talk to us anymore if we dont.

If they have that attitude, the problem runs deeper, and must be healed despite the wedding. And if and when its healed, they will likely understand why attending was a hardship for their parent. And perhaps even regret the invalidity altogether!