Cleric - its ok to beat woman and force them to have sex

[WarriorAngel]

says about wife beating.Islam: What the Hadith

The Koran 4:34, is clear and unmistakable.

1. 
   *]Give her a piece of your mind by scolding and rebuking her.
   *]Ignore her, ground her to her room, starving her of sex, affection and attention. (This is recognized to day as a form of passive wife abuse)
   *]Physically beat her.
   1. 
      *]“Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband’s absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!” (Rodwell’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
      
      
      What the Hadith says about wife beating:
      1. 
         ]"A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: “Get even with him”, but then added: “Wait until I think about it”. Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: “We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best”. [To beat your wife is best.] (“At-Tafsir al-Kabir” on 4:34, Razi (Quoted in "Beyond the Veil, Razi is one of the greatest Muslim scholars)
         ]"You have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not with severity. If they refrain from these things and obey you, they have right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are your wards having no control of their persons." (Muhammad’s Farewell Address, Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasulallah”, Guillaume’s translation, page 651)
         Unimaginable considering Jesus was against what this prophet taught.

 

[kellie]

Most nights, the dishes need washing. I dont ever feel like doing them, but they need doing or else I end up living in a pig sty.
The reason I have for not wanting to do them is always the same … “I dont feel like it”
But I do them and its a chore

Is that how SisterAmy thinks sex between a man and wife should be?? A chore ???

Thats how it is sounding

Who says how often sex should occur for the marital rights to be fulfilled?
Cant it be maybe once a month??

I dont find the Islam way of thinking very thoughtful at all

 

[WarriorAngel]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

God created men & women differently . In Islam , men have rights over women & the vice versa but rights are not exactly ’ same’ in nature. In many cases , women have more rights. It’s a must for men to earn & spend for women . What women earn that’s absolutely belong to her only. So , his money is her money & not the vice versa.

Jesus (p) allowed polygamy for men in OT. Solomon (p) had 1 thousands wives including concubines. I never heard or read that Jesus (p) was cruel to women for not allowing them having many husbands at a time.

Pardon ma’am, but Jesus said;

Matthew 19
3 And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:
5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.

What this verse implies is pretty simply understood that a man and woman cannot EVEN get a divorce and remarry - let alone marry several others.
If remarrying someone is adultery - then how can anyone even begin to defend something completely polar opposite to what Jesus taught? And even begin to accept polygamy?

It just doesn’t add up.

 

[Reuben_J]

Islam: What the Hadith says about wife beating.

The Koran 4:34, is clear and unmistakable.

1. 
   *]Give her a piece of your mind by scolding and rebuking her.
   *]Ignore her, ground her to her room, starving her of sex, affection and attention. (This is recognized to day as a form of passive wife abuse)
   *]Physically beat her.
   1. 
      
      …

1. 1. 
      I just want to touch on this among other things.
      
      Well, I’ve seen this happen right in front of my face. My counselee that I’ve spoken about. Her husband who wanted to marry another woman as a second wife simply ignores her because she could never agree to it. He told her from then on that she could do anything she likes, he would not care. They do not talk in the house and he would spend his time or make a point rather by speaking on the phone with this other woman right in her presence. Obviously her husband was harassing her mentally perhaps with the intention that when she could not take it anymore she would give him permission to marry the woman.
      
      BTW, she is in no position for a divorce, it would be the last thing in her mind as they have three children, age 8 to 14. My impression was that she was an intelligent woman but she was going bonker with what’s going on. The husband is seldom at home which is made worse by the fact that as a pilot his job dictates that he will be away most of the time.
      
      What I can see from this case is that no matter what Muslim apologists would say like a husband must need his wife permission to marry another woman, the simple reality is he will get his way the moment he decides that he wants to marry another wife. Its just a matter of time. It the wife who loses in this battle of the will because her position is totally at a disadvantage as per Islamic teaching vis-à-vis with her husband.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I just want to touch on this among other things.

Well, I’ve seen this happen right in front of my face. My counselee that I’ve spoken about. Her husband who wanted to marry another woman as a second wife simply ignores her because she could never agree to it. He told her from then on that she could do anything she likes, he would not care. They do not talk in the house and he would spend his time or make a point rather by speaking on the phone with this other woman right in her presence. Obviously her husband was harassing her mentally perhaps with the intention that when she could not take it anymore she would give him permission to marry the woman.

BTW, she is in no position for a divorce, it would be the last thing in her mind as they have three children, age 8 to 14. My impression was that she was an intelligent woman but she was going bonker with what’s going on. The husband is seldom at home which is made worse by the fact that as a pilot his job dictates that he will be away most of the time.

What I can see from this case is that no matter what Muslim apologists would say like a husband must need his wife permission to marry another woman, the simple reality is he will get his way the moment he decides that he wants to marry another wife. Its just a matter of time. It the wife who loses in this battle of the will because her position is totally at a disadvantage as per Islamic teaching vis-à-vis with her husband.

Here is something so interesting in regards to the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad and how vastly far apart they truly are…

Jesus told us that the first will be last and the last will be first in Heaven. [Whoever insists on being first will become last in His Kingdom] Which is after all, true justice.

Now - if Jesus is to be believed - then what He said contradicts everything Muhammad had said.

First of all, according to Jesus, Islamic women will be first in Heaven. Meaning men will be the lesser because they had to be first on earth. Altho i cannot even judge they will be in Heaven because Jesus said the ONLY way was thru Him. [And faith in Him]

Then according to scriptures, St Paul who was struck blind by the risen Jesus and converted from being a murderer to someone humble and persecuted giving up all his life and suffering for the sake of the Lord - said** that love does NOT insist on it’s own way**.

He said in Ephesians that a married couple is not in charge of their own bodies, but of the other’s body.
Which means that the men who remarry in Islam are disobeying that. They are taking all pleasures upon themselves…and leave nothing for women whom they regard as the lesser beings.

Christ said the first will be last and the last will be first - when blended into a marriage in the truest sense of Christianity - means that the husband gives to the wife and puts her first and doesnt insist on his own way…
And the wife should put her husband first and put herself last. remember everything with God is free will and choice. He sets up the Laws we should follow in order to have peace within families and love within marriages…extending to the world.

Now when the couple does put the other first and themselves last - the neat part is that they are each put first and are treated as first and they themselves are not last but put 1st by the other…making the unity absolutely perfect and continious in happiness in the Lord.

Anything that suggests it is another way is only going to breed contempt and even bitterness at the lot in life they were given. That is NOT from God but the one who wants to breed hate.

Women in Islam may not speak up on how they feel inside, how mistreated they feel deepest inside…and can numb themselves and deny these things bother them - but they are afraid to speak out and suggest they are unhappy because they think retribution against them and they will be hell bound.

However; if they only knew what Jesus truly said - He could set them free.

Muhammad in all his theories, was only a man. None of his miracles were ever witnessed. I read his life. Scholars who are Muslim gave account of his life, and not one time did a miracle ever occur before the crowds NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS…[unlike the thousands who immediately followed Jesus upon His resurrection and appearnace as such, because of the miracles He performed in life]

If women of Islam knew how much Jesus died for them as well as all, that they are equal in THEIR reward in heaven, and that their marriages should be equal, they would finally be free to pursue the TRUE words of Christ of which they are not allowed nor can they read.

In fact - Islam conceals the Apostles from them, as well as the surrounding reasons of the words Jesus spoke.

Most are only allowed to read ‘hand selected’ phrases from Jesus.

I think it’s sad, but it doesn’t surprise me an Islamic woman in fear of retribution of God, would enslave themselves to Islamic men, because they have been brainwashed to this since childhood.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… Her reasoning is that Muslims unlike their Western counterparts do not engage in illicit sex and marriages.
.

What I wanted/ want to say , live together without marriage , having love childs etc are not acceptable in Muslim majority countries. Some people do these sins but still don’t have courage to declare it openly. Sinners fear that they may get punishment . In the west , all these are accepted in the society. Can U see the difference ?

Few Chrisitians even told me it’s not good to condemn gay people because Jesus (p) taught to forgive sinners as he forgave a sinner lady. May be , that’s the reason we see gay parade , gay marriage , gay Priests in the west. In any Muslim even non-Muslim country , if Imam declares that he is a gay , he will be suspended from his job immediately .

 

[R_not]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

What I wanted/ want to say , live together without marriage , having love childs etc are not acceptable in Muslim majority countries. Some people do these sins but still don’t have courage to declare it openly. Sinners fear that they may get punishment . In the west , all these are accepted in the society. Can U see the difference ?

Few Chrisitians even told me it’s not good to condemn gay people because Jesus (p) taught to forgive sinners as he forgave a sinner lady. May be , that’s the reason we see gay parade , gay marriage , gay Priests in the west. In any Muslim even non-Muslim country , if Imam declares that he is a gay , he will be suspended from his job immediately .

I will say up front that I am disgusted over the gay parades and their flaunting of their bodily parts in public like they do and the media putting it on TV where kids could watch. But, I don’t think they should be killed.

But, this video tells us about the biggest gay and lesbian organization in SF is muslim! (after 10 minute)

They don’t have to declare that they are gay - what they do is have slaves. mohammed also had his little boy slaves. He also had an adult man as his sexual partner. article

while some ulema say is “weak,” is, nonetheless according to Botros, present in 44 Islamic books—including some highly respected collections, such as Sunan Bayhaqi and Al Halabi.

According to this hadith, a man named Zahir, who used to declare that “the prophet loves me,” said that one day Muhammad crept unawares behind him and put him in a bear-hug. Zahir, alarmed, yelled, “Get off me!” After turning his head and discovering that it was Muhammad, he stopped struggling and proceeded to “push his back into the prophet’s chest—prayers and blessings upon him."

Another curious hadith contained in Sunan Bayhaqi and which traces to Sunan Abu Dawud (one of the six canonical hadith collections), has Muhammad lifting up his shirt for a man who proceeded to kiss his entire torso, “from his bellybutton to his armpits.”

Botros looked casually at the camera and said, “Imagine if the sheikh of Al Azhar [nearest Muslim equivalent to the pope] went around lifting his shirt for men to kiss his torso” (he proceeded to make smacking kissing noises, for effect).

Said the co-host: “Surely there’s more?”

Botros: “Indeed there is. No less than 20 Islamic sources—such as the hadiths of Ahmad bin Hanbal—relay that Muhammad used to suck on the tongues of boys and girls"…

Of course, they tell us it is ‘weak’ when they don’t like us knowing it exists!

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/imam-the-disgusting-ped-freak.jpg

And since slaves are allowed in islam, the taking of little boys - fully or partially castrating them - they are used for sex too. And what is their heaven full of? 72 virgins AND!!! ALL THE LITTLE BOYS THEY WANT!

Be careful of what you are condemning in other’s religions until you know your own better, especially until you know your own prophet better. The Priest in the above article used to be a muslim and knows what he was taught.

 

[R_not]

source: The Third Jihad

GAYS

• are seen as contagious

Shiba al-Hamad (2005), saudi sheik Abd al-Qadar
-‘Homosexuality is a sever depravity.’
-If you caught a man in the act of sodomy kill both him and his partner.’

ITS (islamic Thinkers Society) June 2004
‘We are muslims and we will never stay silent against this act. Because allah, the glorified and exhalted, forbids homosexuality.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson ITS (in USA)
‘Sometimes we are blunt when the … ruling system is established we give them a choice we will consult them, give them choice of therapy and tell them to abandon the homosexuality lifestyle and if they don’t - either leave and if you want to be here then you got to face the punishment as a criminal.’

He was asked what is the punishment.

‘Throw them off a cliff.’

 

[Charlotte2008]

And since slaves are allowed in islam, the taking of little boys - fully or partially castrating them - they are used for sex too. And what is their heaven full of? 72 virgins AND!!! ALL THE LITTLE BOYS THEY WANT!

Be careful of what you are condemning in other’s religions until you know your own better, especially until you know your own prophet better. The Priest in the above article used to be a muslim and knows what he was taught.

This photo has made me feel really sick. I wonder how many Muslims have blind faith and how many actually know what it is about and still stick with it and yet call the West bad. Double standards.

 

[R_not]

This photo has made me feel really sick. I wonder how many Muslims have blind faith and how many actually know what it is about and still stick with it and yet call the West bad. Double standards.

I could go on about double standards! The thing is that they don’t think the slaves, infidels and even their own women are equal to themselves. muslim women rank higher than slaves and infidels - but not by much. And they just have no concern about the slaves - or else they would have stopped it by now. Instead they muddy history by blaming us for it all and never mention the fact that islam still practices it. Have you ever heard any blacks in islam, or any blacks in any faith, get upset over the slavery that is still going on in islam?

I haven’t heard a peep - excpet out of the ones I worked with. They wouldn’t believe me until I started printing them articles, quotes from the koran, court cases that muslims have been involved in in our own country, etc.

But, no outcry from anyone. Our left wing idiot schools don’t even teach it - they might offend muslims.

Or how about weekend marriages in islam that are for sex only?

The biggest hypocritical things are sharia laws themselves! there are no rights for non-muslims, very few for muslim women and basically the muslim male can do anything they want except to another muslim male.

Their definitions of words such as peace, peace treaties/cease fires, their practice of deception, etc. They want a Coptic Priest shut down, but they have a koran that is more violent than a priest telling us what is in that koran and their hadiths! All hypocritical.

 

[sedonaman]

Their definitions of words such as peace, peace treaties/cease fires… All hypocritical.

“War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.” — George Orwell, 1984.

 

[WarriorAngel]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

What I wanted/ want to say , live together without marriage , having love childs etc are not acceptable in Muslim majority countries. Some people do these sins but still don’t have courage to declare it openly. Sinners fear that they may get punishment . In the west , all these are accepted in the society. Can U see the difference ?

Few Chrisitians even told me it’s not good to condemn gay people because Jesus (p) taught to forgive sinners as he forgave a sinner lady. May be , that’s the reason we see gay parade , gay marriage , gay Priests in the west. In any Muslim even non-Muslim country , if Imam declares that he is a gay , he will be suspended from his job immediately .

Honestly, you are not taught everything about the Muslim faith.
As someone else mentioned about the ‘boys’ in Heaven.

Hey did you KNOW Jesus said there will be no marrying in Heaven. That also means no carnal sex.

But Muhammad taught quite the contrary. [yet again - big surprise]

He not only was into pedophelia, homosexuality, and polygamy, but he was into raping, pillaging and theft and slavery.
He was the sort that said ‘Do I say and not as I do.’

Hey can you name a single witnessed miracle?

Not a sort i would follow.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Does this sound like a ‘poke’ to you?

Sahih Bukhari Book 004, Number 2127
He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said

Yep. That’s why I used the work “poke.” My dad’s done the same thing to me before. Poke is the word I’d use–it hurt sometimes, but wasn’t serious and wasn’t even close to “beating.”

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hog wash

The Qur’an:

Sura (4:34) - “Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.”

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being “greener” than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/003-wife-beating.htm

Book 11, Number 2141:

Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, **he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them.** Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.

usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141

Yawn. You’re not even arguing against me, just hopping onto the typical train. Muhammad did not beat women. It’s a fact.

 

[R_not]

Yep. That’s why I used the work “poke.” My dad’s done the same thing to me before. Poke is the word I’d use–it hurt sometimes, but wasn’t serious and wasn’t even close to “beating.”

And it is hard to take you seriously when you change the word ‘struck’ with ‘poke’.

I suppose that is just one example how you justify the violence in islam - how the others are justifying it. Redefine words, twist words, etc - that way it won’t look like allah was really focused on mohammed’s sexual life, that mohammed didn’t abuse anyone, and that the bloodlust of the jihadists are just ‘opening the world to islam’ when they torture and kill others just because they are of a different religion.

I can see this changed if a muslim was poked by a non-muslim! OH!!! Then it would turn into ‘struck’ and even ‘beaten’. And I am sure that some other adjectives would be used. This blindness in regards to mohammed’s abusive nature is just beyond belief sometimes. Even your own texts tell of his abuse and you all just ignore it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, I’d like to think that’s not me to begin with, but maybe it is with regard to this particular issue. I don’t know. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions anyway.

It’s definitely a pleasure to post alongside you, and to answer your questions when you ask.

If you back to the original news story at the start of the thread, the cleric says that even if the woman is busy doing something else, she is to drop whatever she is doing in order to engage in intercourse with her husband because he wants it. So presumably "I’m busy is not in the category of “good reasons”. What IS considered a good reason (and why) ought to go a long way to resolving my apparent misunderstandings of the true Islamic position.

I don’t have a specific criteria as to what is, or isn’t, a good reason. Sorry if I’ve seemed dodgy about it–but truthfully, I don’t know of any kind of criteria. But I don’t think it’s the sort of wishy-washy thing people should look for technicalities in, anyway.

Now, if the woman is busy doing something else (the specific example is fixing a meal in the kitchen), that’s not really a good reason. The reason that the cleric mentioned this is because that is exactly what the hadith says–that if a woman is working in the kitchen and her husband calls her, that she should go to him. (Not that she cannot refuse him, but that she is supposed to go to him. I don’t have a problem with that at all.)

So angels apparently decide or are informed as to what is a “good” reason? Do they then communicate their decision to the husband or what?

I probably wasn’t clear, thus resulting in your confusion. There is no communication between the angels and the humans at all.

I think most of what I am objecting to is not that the husband might tell his wife “I think it is part of the health of our marriage that you are responsive to me physically and I to you; if you are not, it worries me, and I feel you do not respect me or our marriage.” This I think would be a very respectful way and reasonable way to approach the issue.

I agree.

What I am objecting to is this idea that the wife should simply submit to her husband physically even if she really doesn’t want to, because it is his right within the marriage to have sex whenever he wants. If that is the case, then how can either husband or wife be secure in the state of their relationship?

The example you gave from a man is fine. Why is it weird to allow that the woman would also say to her husband that she may submit to him at times in order to fulfill his rights, but that she would also request that he be considerate with her when she is, for instance, not in the mood. If possible, he could wait, or at least make things easy on her. I think good communication can go a long way, and I don’t think it’s too much to expect that the woman is willing to voice her concerns to her husband.

(And incidentally, he cannot have sex “whenever he wants.” There are certain times when the husband is positively not allowed to have intercourse with his wife.)

This is the problem I have with the idea of “rights” in the way that you have defined them being recognized over the desires of either party. It may be my right to physical intimacy with my wife, but if she always obliges me even though she doesn’t want to, I don’t think it is too crazy for both of us to start resenting one another for this (me for her begrudging sort of attitude; she for my callousness).

When talking about “rights,” it is often left out in legal discussions that a woman has the right to respect and kind treatment from her husband (as does a husband from his wife.) I think that if my husband was inconsiderate of my own feelings, and was asking my continually at times when it was not just inconvenient but difficult for me to oblige him, I imagine I might start to resent him. So communication should be two ways.

I apologize for having offended you, but I must maintain that it is very difficult for me to see the equality of the situation here. Perhaps if there had been an example of a talk given to Muslimahs about their rights over their husband that included rights to hit them if they are disobedient in this area,

As a general principle in Islamic law (this is amusing), all things are permissible unless they have been prohibited. (except in regards to worship, where the opposite is true.) Do you know where women were ever prevented for hitting their husbands? Personally, I don’t think it would ever do an ounce of good. Men respond to such things differently than women do.

I might feel differently. It seems like in practice, with man’s libido being as it is, there can be very little doubt as to who will be most often called upon to submit to marital relations even when they don’t want to.

Probably this is why men did not have to be told specifically to oblige their wives if he need arose.

Why can rights not be framed in a two-way manner? Meaning, why can it not be both the husband’s and the wife’s right to ask for or refuse sex as they see fit? Would that not work because the husband’s desire for sex is probably more “constant” (for lack of a better way to phrase it) than the wife’s, so his desires would go unfulfilled more often than hers?

Maybe.

If that is the case (and, without being crude, imperical evidence from both being a man and having many male friends would suggest that it is), is this not implicit recognition that the man’s “rights” do have primacy over those of the wife simply because he wants sex more often than she does?

Not really.

Why is sex on request a right, but celibacy on request is not?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Amy,
There is going to be a point in your life when your married, and trying to go to sleep, then all of a sudden your husband wants to have sex with you. You will then know what it feels like to ‘not feeling like having sex’.
When you get that feeling and say to your husband, i dont feel like having sex because im tired, are you going to react when he a) beats you for saying that b) be made to have sex against your will?
Been beaten and forced to have sex (aka rape) is not a nice feeling, yet you condone these actions.
When your faced with this, i wish you well, and hope you can get through the scars of it. I dont wish this on anyone, but yet, this is something you will most likely be faced with, i hope not, but you may be.

Neither scenario is according to Islam. So if my husband fears Allah then he wouldn’t choose either beating rape. As I said, Islam permits neither in that situation.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, I have read that before. And I actually said that mutual respect in the way I am envisioning it (admittedly biased towards my understanding of what my own religion says about marriage and love, but who isn’t?) does not seem to be a bedrock principle, not that it flat-out does not exist in Muslim marriages. That would be an unfair generalization, but that is not what I said nor what I intended.

Mutual respect as a bedrock principle? I was good friends with a man who actually wrote a research paper in his 4th year of acquiring a bachelor’s degree in Shari’ah in Saudi Arabia, that was about this very topic–i.e., that mutual respect is a bedrock principle in Islamic marriages. Now, he didn’t use those words exactly, but his entire paper was based on a statement in the Qur’an which says that men are to treat their wives kindly, or honourably. You can’t get much more “bedrock” than a statement from the Qur’an.

In all seriousness, Sister Amy, I do really appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. We may never see eye to eye on certain things, but I am glad you are willing to discuss these things with me anyway. I am sorry if I have offended you at any point.

It’s my pleasure, and of course I forgive you–as I hope you can forgive me for my mistakes as well.

 

[Sister_Amy]

How do you know he didn’t beat them since you weren’t there?

Vickie

Simple. Someone who was there says he never beat them.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Most nights, the dishes need washing. I dont ever feel like doing them, but they need doing or else I end up living in a pig sty.
The reason I have for not wanting to do them is always the same … “I dont feel like it”
But I do them and its a chore

Is that how SisterAmy thinks sex between a man and wife should be?? A chore ???

Thats how it is sounding

Who says how often sex should occur for the marital rights to be fulfilled?
Cant it be maybe once a month??

I dont find the Islam way of thinking very thoughtful at all

Muhammad used to help his wives at home–he did the dishes. Islam does not say that cleaning the house is the woman’s responsibility–and it’s not. Muhammad himself helped clean the house and do the dishes.

Just something to think about.