Communion on the tongue while kneeling

[Walking_Home]

Being raised in the Traditional Catholic Church of the 40’s, 50’s & 60’s and Catholic schools grade 1st through 10th, I believed I was a Traditionalist even to the point of leaving the Church in '72 due to the changing of the Mass (I almost said Vat.II because back then I thought that was the problem). I was a 4th. Degree Knight of Columbus and that’s all they would talk about at all the meetings, VII this VII that. I never once renounced my religion, I just quite going to Church until JP II’s death. I starting surfing the net for anything & everything I could find on this Holy man & the Holy Catholic Church. I started going to Church again and being a Traditionalist, for awhile I was still unhappy about the changes of the Mass. Looking for all the faults and abuses of the NO Mass and there were some, but not to the extent of what I read on these forums. I finally realize I was a Catholic because I was a Knight of Columbus instead of the other way around.
Reading this thread and others in this forum where some think they are more Catholic than the Pope & too speak ill of the Holy John Paul II makes me sick!

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So you believe the Pope’s infallibility extends to each and every decision he makes.

 

[BobP123]

So, now traditionalist can read the soul’s of those who receive in the hand?!?

Of course not. I don’t judge anyone. If I can’t stand watching it anymore, I simply leave. I’m not paid to preach.

But perfunctory mannerisms probably betray what people write on these message boards. My gist is this: If it’s THAT special, act like it is. If you don’t show reverence, how exactly is that a good example?

 

[labernadette]

Another Holier the the Pope?

Is this all you can come up with for your defense of the crisis in the church today? You know I am sick and tired of these neo-catholics that think they have all the answers but what it really boils down to is that they have no answers at all. I suggest you buy a traditional Catholic Catechism for starters and start from the beginning…get to understand your Catholic faith. In fact, I will recommend “My Catholic Faith” a Cathechism in Pictures. It is good for children and adults alike and can be ordered here:
angeluspress.org/index.php?act=warehouse&info=3006
Understanding the traditional Catholic faith is first and foremost.

 

[rlg94086]

stmaria, you said,
“Communion in the hand is a desecration of the greatest gift that God has given us: the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist.”

TAKE IT UP WITH MY BISHOP!!!

I am not irreverent when I receive the Lord.

You are insulting a lot of Catholics who are in obedience to their Bishops.

You are taking this way too personally IMO Cat. I used to receive in the hand. I read/heard similar things posted by stmaria at the time, respected the person’s opinion, disagreed, and went on doing what I knew was approved by my Bishop. You are free to do the same. There is no reason to feel hurt and/or be angry with stmaria for posting an opinion about reverence - same goes for kneeling, mantillas, proper dress, receiving from the cup, etc. Respect the fact that others have a different sense of reverence than you do.

I have since come to an understanding that it is more reverent to receive on the tongue, but I will receive in the hand if I am in an unfamiliar parish where they receive and there is no paten. I do this for three reasons:

1. Confrontation is not my goal, and I would prefer not to have the experience an earlier poster mentioned of being denied communion.
2. I can’t be certain that the priest/extraordinary minister has experience placing the Host on the tongue and they may bungle the operation
3. Due to #2 above, there more risk of the host or crumbs falling to the ground without a paten then there is in my hand.

I try to find more orthodox parishes when I travel, but that is not always easy.

Pax,

Robert

 

[Like]

My gist is this: If it’s THAT special, act like it is. If you don’t show reverence, how exactly is that a good example?

You still make it sound as if “all who receive in the hand” don’t show reverence. And I just don’t see that at my parish. We have only the NO Mass on the whole Island & while I would love to have the TLM at least in one parish on the Island. Sadly, I do not think we will have even after B16 releases the MP. But, I do not see or hear of the things such as ireverence or non believe of the Real Presences in any of the Masses I’ve been to on this Island. I done my own little survey here and I have found no one to fall in these catagories. I do sincerely hope & pray for the return of the TLM!

 

[Like]

Is this all you can come up with for your defense of the crisis in the church today? You know I am sick and tired of these neo-catholics that think they have all the answers but what it really boils down to is that they have no answers at all. I suggest you buy a traditional Catholic Catechism for starters and start from the beginning…get to understand your Catholic faith. In fact, I will recommend “My Catholic Faith” a Cathechism in Pictures. It is good for children and adults alike and can be ordered here:
angeluspress.org/index.php?act=warehouse&info=3006
Understanding the traditional Catholic faith is first and foremost.

Understand this! I am a 67 year old cradle Catholic & consider myself to be a TRADITIONALIST! Please define a neo-catholic. To me, one is such when they preach & believe the Pope has committed ONE BIG sin for allowing the NO Mass and receiving in the hand. Yes! I do believe there are problems in the Church and there always have been, but to insinuate the Pope & all the Bishops are evil is going too far.

When sick and tired take some medicine and get some rest.

 

[laudamus_te]

Another Holier the the Pope?

No.
Please quit accusing those who do not hold the Pope to be infallible in all matters as considering themselves “holier.” Would you have dared say that to the many saints who have resisted error in the Church? How about St. Athanasius? I am simply holding to the traditions of our Church, as upheld for hundreds of years. I believe the Church will eventually find that Communion in the hand is in error. You know, you remind me of the cardinal (can’t remember his name) who told Bishop Fellay that he would “rather be in error with the Pope.” As Bsp. Fellay said: But if you are in error, you are not with Jesus!

 

[labernadette]

Understand this! I am a 67 year old cradle Catholic & consider myself to be a TRADITIONALIST! Please define a neo-catholic. To me, one is such when they preach & believe the Pope has committed ONE BIG sin for allowing the NO Mass and receiving in the hand. Yes! I do believe there are problems in the Church and there always have been, but to insinuate the Pope & all the Bishops are evil is going too far.

When sick and tired take some medicine and get some rest.

I didn’t insinuate anything. And I am a 52 year old CRADLE CATHOLIC that only NOW considers myself a traditionalist. I rejected the Novus Ordo two years ago after being pushed to the edge in a very liberal diocese. I will assist ONLY at the TLM. I grew up in the NO, went to Catholic schools all of my life, as did my brothers and sisters, and every one of my siblings save one, that is 3 out of 5, have left the church or lost the faith. Sorry, but a traditional Catholic is not someone who thinks the crisis in the church today will just up and go away. And many will need to read up and re-educate themselves in our Faith if they desire to go home to tradition.

 

[Writer]

I didn’t insinuate anything. And I am a 52 year old CRADLE CATHOLIC that only NOW considers myself a traditionalist. I rejected the Novus Ordo two years ago after being pushed to the edge in a very liberal diocese. I will assist ONLY at the TLM. I grew up in the NO, went to Catholic schools all of my life, as did my brothers and sisters, and every one of my siblings save one, that is 3 out of 5, have left the church or lost the faith. Sorry, but a traditional Catholic is not someone who thinks the crisis in the church today will just up and go away. And many will need to read up and re-educate themselves in our Faith if they desire to go home to tradition.

Is it possible that one of the plethora of reasons so many misguided “cradle Catholics” slide away from the Church could be a (likewise misguided) embrace of legalism or pride by some–at the expense of mercy? One can have any religious view or perspective he wishes to have, but to judge others as irreverent simply because of the (bishop approved) method they choose of receiving the blessed Eucharist strikes me as pretty dangerous spiritual ground to be trodding. Who gave you authority to pass judgement on the innermost heart of your fellow Catholics? Perhaps receiving on the tongue is most reverent and best–I will concede that distinct possibilty. Be that as it may, however, judging these people with whom you disagree (Catholics following an approved practice) as sinful is going too far. If it needs to be changed, let the Church change it. For those of use who are not usually comfortable receiving on the tongue, however, we are doing nothing wrong by following (in good conscience) the practices approved by our bishop. To judge our hearts by your own feelings is to ignore Jesus’ stern warning found in Matthew 7:1-5. Just my two cents…

 

[BobP123]

One can have any religious view or perspective he wishes to have ]

Does that include leaving to go outside to retch?

 

[labernadette]

Is it possible that one of the plethora of reasons so many misguided “cradle Catholics” slide away from the Church could be a (likewise misguided) embrace of legalism or pride by some–at the expense of mercy? One can have any religious view or perspective he wishes to have, but to judge others as irreverent simply because of the (bishop approved) method they choose of receiving the blessed Eucharist strikes me as pretty dangerous spiritual ground to be trodding. Who gave you authority to pass judgement on the innermost heart of your fellow Catholics? Perhaps receiving on the tongue is most reverent and best–I will concede that distinct possibilty. Be that as it may, however, judging these people with whom you disagree (Catholics following an approved practice) as sinful is going too far. If it needs to be changed, let the Church change it. For those of use who are not usually comfortable receiving on the tongue, however, we are doing nothing wrong by following (in good conscience) the practices approved by our bishop. To judge our hearts by your own feelings is to ignore Jesus’ stern warning found in Matthew 7:1-5. Just my two cents…

You see, the problem lies not with those who do not agree with you, it lies with those who will blindly sit back without a voice of opposition to the errors and sacrileges that are occuring. It is not a judgement of you or other lay-Catholics, it is a judgement of a reckless hierarchy who are teaching contrary to Catholic doctrine and in the process, leading souls to hell.

 

[Walking_Home]

Is it possible that one of the plethora of reasons so many misguided “cradle Catholics” slide away from the Church could be a (likewise misguided) embrace of legalism or pride by some–at the expense of mercy? One can have any religious view or perspective he wishes to have, but to judge others as irreverent simply because of the (bishop approved) method they choose of receiving the blessed Eucharist strikes me as pretty dangerous spiritual ground to be trodding. Who gave you authority to pass judgement on the innermost heart of your fellow Catholics? Perhaps receiving on the tongue is most reverent and best–I will concede that distinct possibilty. Be that as it may, however, judging these people with whom you disagree (Catholics following an approved practice) as sinful is going too far. If it needs to be changed, let the Church change it. For those of use who are not usually comfortable receiving on the tongue, however, we are doing nothing wrong by following (in good conscience) the practices approved by our bishop. To judge our hearts by your own feelings is to ignore Jesus’ stern warning found in Matthew 7:1-5. Just my two cents…

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I sure hope— that is not what is being taught in RCIA now a days—to those swimming the Tiber.

 

[Writer]

Is it possible that one of the plethora of reasons so many misguided “cradle Catholics” slide away from the Church could be a (likewise misguided) embrace of legalism or pride by some–at the expense of mercy? To judge others as irreverent simply because of the (bishop approved) method they choose of receiving the blessed Eucharist strikes me as pretty dangerous spiritual ground to be trodding. Who gave you authority to pass judgement on the innermost heart of your fellow Catholics? Perhaps receiving on the tongue is most reverent and best–I will concede that distinct possibilty. Be that as it may, however, judging these people with whom you disagree (Catholics following an approved practice) as sinful is going too far. If it needs to be changed, let the Church change it. For those of use who are not usually comfortable receiving on the tongue, however, we are doing nothing wrong by following (in good conscience) the practices approved by our bishop. To judge our hearts by your own feelings is to ignore Jesus’ stern warning found in Matthew 7:1-5. Just my two cents…

 

[Writer]

Does that include leaving to go outside to retch?

Actually…I’ll join you where it comes to the sentence to which you were referring. So, you better make room fast!

Tried to remove it, but I was too slow. I was not trying to promote moral relativism, however, but simply attempting to highlight the issue of discernment versus the act of passing personal judgement on others. It’s one thing to hold a personal religious view such as the one being described on this thread and it’s another to apply it in terms of passing severe judgement on those fellow Catholics with whom you disagree. It’s too easily done–it’s human nature–but I suggest its heading in the wrong spiritual direction.

Reminds me of a quote I like from an Anglican writer named C.S. Lewis. As he reminds us in The Weight of Glory, there are no “ordinary people”. Lewis continues on that “nations, cultures, arts, civilizations—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.” When one is faced with the sobering value of his fellow man, pride is replaced with humility. That is what I was trying to draw attention to.

Furthermore, I do believe that legalism is a problem for some “Cradle Catholics”–as well as other Christians. There is a Catholic exorcist I was reading last summer, for instance, that pointed out that the demon(s) he frequently encountered at Catholic exorcisms identified itself/themselves as “legalism”. I never much believed in demons identifying themselves as the names of particular sins. It all seemed a little too Frank Peretti to me, but I have read a number of accounts which appear to indicate that this kind of thing is not that rare–in the context of a Church approved exorcism. When I read that for the first time, it made a big impact with me, and it is an area of which I am constantly trying to be aware. I know it sounds corny, but it’s also true that the way we treat or think about others is the way we treat Christ–perhaps even more true when we are talking about those fellow Catholics who have just taken the Eucharist!

Remember what Saint Augustine wrote of the Eucharist in Confessions, “**I am the food of full-grown men. Grow and you shall feed on me. But you shall not change me into your own substance, as you do with the food of your body. Instead you shall be changed into me.” **

That being the case, it seems rather bad form to be watching those receiving the Eucharist for the purpose of passing your critcal juddgement upon them.

 

[Walking_Home]

Actually…I’ll join you where it comes to that sentence. So, make room.

Tried to remove it, but I was too slow. I was not trying to promote moral relativism, however, but simply attempting to highlight the issue of discernment versus the act of passing persnal judgement on others. It’s one thing to hold a personal religious view such as the one being described on this thread and it’s another to apply it in terms of passing judgement on those fellow Catholics with whom you disagree. It’s too easily done–it’s human nature–but I suggest its heading in the wrong spiritual direction.

Reminds me of a quote I like from an Anglican writer named C.S. Lewis. As he reminds us in The Weight of Glory, there are no “ordinary people”. Lewis continues on that “nations, cultures, arts, civilizations—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.” When one is faced with the sobering value of his fellow man, pride is replaced with humility. That is what I was trying to draw attention to.

Furthermore, I do believe that legalism is a problem for some “Cradle Catholics”–as well as other Christians. There is a Catholic exorcist I was reading last summer, for instance, that pointed out that the demon(s) he frequently encountered at Catholic exorcisms identified itself/themselves as “legalism”. I never much believed in sins identifying themselves like this, but I have read a number of accounts which appear to indicate they sometimes do. That should be food for thought for all of us–that’s all.

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Actually—what you identify as legalism in this thread—is High Christology. Apostolic Churches–East and West are High Christology.

I do have to say though—just from this thread—I can see we are well on our way to —Low Christology.

 

[Writer]

Actually…I’ll join you where it comes to the sentence to which you were referring. So, you better make room fast!

Tried to remove it, but I was too slow. I was not trying to promote moral relativism, however, but simply attempting to highlight the issue of discernment versus the act of passing personal judgement on others. It’s one thing to hold a personal religious view such as the one being described on this thread and it’s another to apply it in terms of passing severe judgement on those fellow Catholics with whom you disagree. It’s too easily done–it’s human nature–but I suggest its heading in the wrong spiritual direction.

Reminds me of a quote I like from an Anglican writer named C.S. Lewis. As he reminds us in The Weight of Glory, there are no “ordinary people”. Lewis continues on that “nations, cultures, arts, civilizations—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.” When one is faced with the sobering value of his fellow man, pride is replaced with humility. That is what I was trying to draw attention to.

Furthermore, I do believe that legalism is a problem for some “Cradle Catholics”–as well as other Christians. There is a Catholic exorcist I was reading last summer, for instance, that pointed out that the demon(s) he frequently encountered at Catholic exorcisms identified itself/themselves as “legalism”. I never much believed in demons identifying themselves as the names of particular sins. It all seemed a little too Frank Peretti to me, but I have read a number of accounts which appear to indicate that this kind of thing is not that rare–in the context of a Church approved exorcism. When I read that for the first time, it made a big impact with me, and it is an area of which I am constantly trying to be aware. I know it sounds corny, but it’s also true that the way we treat or think about others is the way we treat Christ–perhaps even more true when we are talking about those fellow Catholics who have just taken the Eucharist!

Remember what Saint Augustine wrote of the Eucharist in Confessions, “**I am the food of full-grown men. Grow and you shall feed on me. But you shall not change me into your own substance, as you do with the food of your body. Instead you shall be changed into me.” **That means, then, that in receiving the Eucharist we are becoming more and more like the men and women God intends us to be–unearthing that image of God on our souls.

That being the case, it seems rather bad form to be watching those receiving the Eucharist for the purpose of passing your critcal juddgement upon them.

 

[Like]

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So you believe the Pope’s infallibility extends to each and every decision he makes.

**Absolutely NOT! **But to insinuate he sinned or committed a sacrilege by allowing the NO Mass and receiving in the hand is just plain wrong!

 

[Like]

I didn’t insinuate anything. And I am a 52 year old CRADLE CATHOLIC that only NOW considers myself a traditionalist. I rejected the Novus Ordo two years ago after being pushed to the edge in a very liberal diocese. I will assist ONLY at the TLM. I grew up in the NO, went to Catholic schools all of my life, as did my brothers and sisters, and every one of my siblings save one, that is 3 out of 5, have left the church or lost the faith. Sorry, but a traditional Catholic is not someone who thinks the crisis in the church today will just up and go away. And many will need to read up and re-educate themselves in our Faith if they desire to go home to tradition.

See my quote above to walking home:
Quote:
“Being raised in the Traditional Catholic Church of the 40’s, 50’s & 60’s and Catholic schools grade 1st through 10th, I believed I was a Traditionalist even to the point of leaving the Church in '72 due to the changing of the Mass (I almost said Vat.II because back then I thought that was the problem). I was a 4th. Degree Knight of Columbus and that’s all they would talk about at all the meetings, VII this VII that. I never once renounced my religion, I just quite going to Church until JP II’s death. I starting surfing the net for anything & everything I could find on this Holy man & the Holy Catholic Church. I started going to Church again and being a Traditionalist, for awhile I was still unhappy about the changes of the Mass. Looking for all the faults and abuses of the NO Mass and there were some, but not to the extent of what I read on these forums. I finally realize I was a Catholic because I was a Knight of Columbus instead of the other way around.
Reading this thread and others in this forum where some think they are more Catholic than the Pope & too speak ill of the Holy John Paul II makes me sick!”

And, I too, have 10 brothers and sisters that also have fallen away due to the NO Mass, but some returned even before I did. However, none of them have this hard shell Traditionalism attitude as I see in this forum.

Hey! That’s all I’m saying, "stop criticizing JP II & Catholics whom attend a legal Mass (NO) and also for interpreting receiving the Lord in the hand as a sin against God.

 

[Like]

No.
Please quit accusing those who do not hold the Pope to be infallible in all matters as considering themselves “holier.” Would you have dared say that to the many saints who have resisted error in the Church? How about St. Athanasius? I am simply holding to the traditions of our Church, as upheld for hundreds of years. I believe the Church will eventually find that Communion in the hand is in error. You know, you remind me of the cardinal (can’t remember his name) who told Bishop Fellay that he would “rather be in error with the Pope.” As Bsp. Fellay said: But if you are in error, you are not with Jesus!

Believe it or not, I know that the Pope is not infallible except in Faith & Morals. But for some of those on this board to say that he (JP II) was dead wrong in allowing the NO Mass and Communion in the hand as being a sacrilege against God, IMO is sinful. And, unless you want to declare yourselves saints, I see no relevance to your above statement.
As for Bsp. Fellay, we all should know his position in our Holy Catholic Church!

I would be quires to know what Cardinal I remind you of.

 

[Walking_Home]

Believe it or not, I know that the Pope is not infallible except in Faith & Morals. But for some of those on this board to say that he (JP II) was dead wrong in allowing the NO Mass and Communion in the hand as being a sacrilege against God, IMO is sinful. And, unless you want to declare yourselves saints, I see no relevance to your above statement.
As for Bsp. Fellay, we all should know his position in our Holy Catholic Church!

I would be quires to know what Cardinal I remind you of.

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I don’t know if anyone mentioned the NO Mass in this thread.

The problem that I see—is once the Pope realized there was a problem with communion in the hand—he had the capability to stop it—but he didn’t. Why-- because the creature has become dominant. The importance was place on “those who receive reverently” —and Who pays the price:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae_en.html

“However, cases of a deplorable lack of respect towards the eucharistic species have been reported, cases which are imputable not only to the individuals guilty of such behavior but also to the pastors of the church who have not been vigilant enough regarding the attitude of the faithful towards the Eucharist.”

Ps. bringing Bishop Fellay into this—really does not do much for you.