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bosnian_muslim
Guest
And why would we when we dont believe in the Bible? we do believe that it originally came from God,but today its not the true Bible anymore…since it is very corrupted…thats why the Koran came.
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rinnie
Guest
Yes, I understand that is what you are taught. But you must understand that we as Christians do not believe that. We did not need for the Koran to come. We have the original word of God given to us by the Church. We do not need the Bible, although we do indeed believe in every word of it. That is why God left us the Church, he never left us the bible. He left us the Apostles that are led by the Holy Spirit.
We believe that Jesus Christ is not just a prophet, We believe him to be the Son Of God. Our Dear Lord and Savior.
We believe in the Trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is alive and well leading us as we speak. We believe as the word of God states. I will not leave you orphans. We believe the The RCC is still leading us as scripure states. The Church is the Pillar of all truth.
Yes I do know that the Qur’an accuses the Jews of misusing their Sacred books.
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rinnie
Guest
But there is ONE thing that we share in common with the Muslims. And we must always remember this.
We both Want to OBEY GODS WILL COMPLETELY. We both believe in ONE GOD. And This is the truth that we can both agree on. And this is the one thing that can help us to grow in Love and Respect for one another.
We both Want to OBEY GODS WILL COMPLETELY. We both believe in ONE GOD. And This is the truth that we can both agree on. And this is the one thing that can help us to grow in Love and Respect for one another.
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viveret
Guest
I’ll grant that this is true-- but where does that leave the Blessed Trinity?
The Blessed Trinity is a core principle of Catholicism. It is not unimportant. It is this idea, as well as the idea that God would take on human nature, among others that separates our faith from that of Mohammed.
I love and respect Muslims as my siblings down here on earth-- I believe God created them also.
But God did not create the conflicts between us.
And as a Christian, I would be lying to myself if I believed that the Koran is the word of God brought to a genuine prophet.
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viveret
Guest
So for a Muslim, the Bible is not a holy book. It is indeed not the word of God.
For Muslims, the Bible as we understand it is profane.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Then you have to ask yourself a question, and then give yourself an honest answer: is God a victim of fatalism? What I mean by that is: is God unable to stop the actions of man from corrupting His word? I know you might say, “Yes, and that’s what He did with the Quran,” but stop and ask yourself: if God is able to preserve the Quran from corruption…why couldn’t He do it with the Torat and Injil? If God is truly all powerful, why could He not use such power to preserve His commands to humanity through Moses and Jesus? Sincerely ponder on those questions before answering it for yourself.
Let me quote a few key verses for Christians to ponder over.
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him… [S. 5:75; Pickthal]
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not [S. 4:157; Yusuf Ali]
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity… [S. 5:73; Yusuf Ali]
I agree wholeheartedly that Christians should not make up stuff about Islam or try to highlight bad parts to make Muslims as a people look bad…however, Christians should not ignore the major contradictions between Islam and Christianity in the hopes of a superficial agreement. You are saying, “Read those passages differently,” but few of these can be read any other way, and to try to read into them something the original authors never intended is to, in essence, lie. That is a greater disrespect to Muslims. Just as I would never want a Muslim distorting the text of the Bible, neither would I want a Christian to distort the text of the Quran, be it for good or bad.
You say to read the Quran in chronological order, similar to how stories are told in the Bible. Yet what stories are we talking about? Are you referring to the part where Abraham and Ishmael build the Ka’ba (S. 2:125)? Are you talking about the part where they supposedly foretell Mohammad (S. 2:129)? Are you referring to the part where Lot and Ishmael are named prophets on the same level as Abraham and Elijah (S. 6:84-90)? Or the parts I’ve quoted already, where it is stated that Christ did not die on the cross (S. 4:157), and that the Trinity is a blasphemy (S. 5:73)? Even if one were to try to create “The Bible According to Mohammad,” putting all the verses dealing with Biblical figures in order, you would still have problems that a novice in a church bible study could point out.
The fact is, the Bible and Quran are incompatible. There’s a reason that even the early Muslims were told to avoid the Bible and stick with the Quran. It wasn’t until recently, with the introduction of post-modernism, that you suddenly saw the rise in these, “Let’s all just get along and pretend our holy texts are the same,” movements came out. The fact is, the Quran teaches heresy, and I could never put what a false prophet preached on the same level as the Word of God.
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Cubsfan
Guest
I hope that I was not misunderstood, I was just trying to point out that telling someone that waht there doing is wrong only tends to harden their heart. I( have no illusions that my words could ever convert anyone,
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bosnian_muslim
Guest
yes
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rinnie
Guest
Of course the Blessed Trinity is important. There is nothing more important. But you must remember that the reason that you know and believe in the Blessed Trinity is one reason. The GRACE given to you by God. God’s grace can do anything.
While I agree that God is not the cause of conflicts, conflicts still remain. We have the Church by the power of the Holy Spirit to give us the great sacraments. But it is by the Grace of God that we can receive them.
It is by Prayer and by God and the Blessed Mother that I believe will unite us all with her Son. I believe that she will be the key to someday open their eyes to the Holy Trinity. But until then we must Yes, show where we are different. But also pray that we can someday by the Power of our prayers and the Powerful prayers of the Blessed Mother learn to live as true Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
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Kitsune633
Guest
Then you are accusing Allah of corrupting His Word? What was Allah doing when the corruption happened? Drinking Pepsi? Watching TV? Making the houri virgins that all Muslim men want? Are you saying Allah is weak and cannot protect His Word? Because you Bosnian_Muslim who is nothing but the remains of the Ottoman Empire are saying that if the Torah and Bible is corrupted, then the QURAN is CORRUPTED! You are saying a Book of Allah is corrupted? Is Allah weak to not protect his own Words?
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jakasaki
Guest
BUMP FOR:
bosnian_muslim
You haven’t addressed Byz Wolfs post…
bosnian_muslim
You haven’t addressed Byz Wolfs post…
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wwolverine
Guest
The only corruption in the Holy Bible muslims find is all letters of Paul, cause if muslims accept them than its cent percent mohammed was fooling the world and would be the first person to be hanged by the then arabs.
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Sam_777
Guest
That principle in Islam called Jihad:
*(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”
**(Quran 47:4):
“Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.”
*(Quran 9:5):
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
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anjoh66
Guest
I speak arabic, and i am a european, catholic, so dont try
U are right
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
That depends on when you’re talking to that Muslim at the time. I’ve seen Muslims say Paul led Christianity astray and that he was essentially a heretic…then turn around and use the writings of Paul to try to prove Islam. :whacky:
I once heard the story of a animator who, after hearing TV executives say something monstrously stupid, went out and wrote what they had said on a dry-erase board in big letters. When asked why, he said he wanted to know if they fully realized just how stupid what they said was. I can’t help but wonder if Muslims, writing on the internet, don’t take a chance to stop and reread what they’ve written to realize how simply inconsistent it is with their whole point.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I have difficulty with your analysis to be “interpretation” not content. I can break down the Old Testament and interpret the Decalogue as a cook book.
The main focus that has been brought up here are the interpretations of each founders religion Jesus founded the Catholic Christian faith on peace and love, whereby Mohammad founded his religion on peace and love for Muslims and elimination of all others.
Now the interpretations from these disciples is what follows today and these disciples base there interpretations from their founders. Jesus sacrificed his humanity for all mankind to bring man back to God. Mohammad made war with humanity to convert them or kill them in the name of “Allah”. Grant it we don’t live in those barbaric times of Mohammad, yet the principles remain in Islam.
The biblical interpretations of Christian virtues, on peace and Love from the Quran, deals within the Muslim communities themselves, thus Islam is a religion of “Peace”. Yet, it is the Muslim calling according to the Quran to convert all others by peaceful means, deception or be killed according to their founder Muhammad.
Today I see Islam moving on three fronts (strategies), being pursued in the world. The first one is being done by peaceful Muslims who are out populating (Christians) cities and countries one at a time (Christians are helping with this strategy by abortion laws). The second are the radical Muslims who make head way for the peaceful Muslims to enter cities and countries where there never was.
This is done by their wealth expenditures in purchasing visas for their people to gain access peacefully in the free world and taking advantage of our freedom in local, national and international politics. This is a contradiction of Islam because it has no “free” government to exercise over the people outside of the religion of Islam. If they ever gain majority in the free world political arena, the Muslim radicals will have no problem in taking over these peaceful Muslims in the free world governments in the name of “Islam” and proclaim their religious laws on the populace.
This may sound far fetched in our time, but until Islam cannot be interpreted outside of the mindset of Muhammad, Islam will always be a religion of “kill the infidels” be it through peaceful means or force.
Christians are called in the same way by our founder Jesus Christ “to go out into the world and baptise All nations and peoples in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. But our weapons are Never by deception, force, torture and murder. Our Christian weapons are peace, sacrifice, hope, charity and the greatest weapon in our arsenal is “Love”.
Love is always our founder Jesus Christ interpretation for His disciples as Christians from the biblical scriptures. Slavery is always the interpretation of the founder of Islam Muhammad. The Muslims interpretations of the Quran, whether they mirror or can be interpreted as from the Christian scriptures is based on their founders practice which contradicts the Christian interpretation.
This is not say I am giving an interpretation of the Quran, this is to say one cannot interpret the Quran outside of its foundation set by Muhammad and it is never Christian, only within “Islam” itself can the Quran interpret Christian virtues among Muslims.
Peace be with you
I’ve seen too many books written by Moslems that misconstrue Christianity. I’ve read outright lies about Christianity in Islamic books. I am very, very careful to not do the same thing from the other direction with any religion.
The main focus that has been brought up here are the interpretations of each founders religion Jesus founded the Catholic Christian faith on peace and love, whereby Mohammad founded his religion on peace and love for Muslims and elimination of all others.
Now the interpretations from these disciples is what follows today and these disciples base there interpretations from their founders. Jesus sacrificed his humanity for all mankind to bring man back to God. Mohammad made war with humanity to convert them or kill them in the name of “Allah”. Grant it we don’t live in those barbaric times of Mohammad, yet the principles remain in Islam.
The biblical interpretations of Christian virtues, on peace and Love from the Quran, deals within the Muslim communities themselves, thus Islam is a religion of “Peace”. Yet, it is the Muslim calling according to the Quran to convert all others by peaceful means, deception or be killed according to their founder Muhammad.
Today I see Islam moving on three fronts (strategies), being pursued in the world. The first one is being done by peaceful Muslims who are out populating (Christians) cities and countries one at a time (Christians are helping with this strategy by abortion laws). The second are the radical Muslims who make head way for the peaceful Muslims to enter cities and countries where there never was.
This is done by their wealth expenditures in purchasing visas for their people to gain access peacefully in the free world and taking advantage of our freedom in local, national and international politics. This is a contradiction of Islam because it has no “free” government to exercise over the people outside of the religion of Islam. If they ever gain majority in the free world political arena, the Muslim radicals will have no problem in taking over these peaceful Muslims in the free world governments in the name of “Islam” and proclaim their religious laws on the populace.
This may sound far fetched in our time, but until Islam cannot be interpreted outside of the mindset of Muhammad, Islam will always be a religion of “kill the infidels” be it through peaceful means or force.
Christians are called in the same way by our founder Jesus Christ “to go out into the world and baptise All nations and peoples in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. But our weapons are Never by deception, force, torture and murder. Our Christian weapons are peace, sacrifice, hope, charity and the greatest weapon in our arsenal is “Love”.
Love is always our founder Jesus Christ interpretation for His disciples as Christians from the biblical scriptures. Slavery is always the interpretation of the founder of Islam Muhammad. The Muslims interpretations of the Quran, whether they mirror or can be interpreted as from the Christian scriptures is based on their founders practice which contradicts the Christian interpretation.
This is not say I am giving an interpretation of the Quran, this is to say one cannot interpret the Quran outside of its foundation set by Muhammad and it is never Christian, only within “Islam” itself can the Quran interpret Christian virtues among Muslims.
Peace be with you
Start with the non-negotiable essentials of Christianity. You probably have never tried to list them. Then list the non-negotiable essentials of Islam. You probably have never tried. You probably are not even qualified to do it. Then read the Koran in chronological order (not cover-to-cover order) through the lens of “this is Abraham and Moses talking.” You haven’t done that.
I’ve seen too many books written by Moslems that misconstrue Christianity. I’ve read outright lies about Christianity in Islamic books. I am very, very careful to not do the same thing from the other direction with any religion.
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autdrew
Guest
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
Is that what he believes? Because there are quite a few names in the koran that are allegedly found in the Bible. When you compare the two, the koran has an incomplete list of the names that are mentioned throughout Old and New Testaments. There are a few stories that are retold about Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and there are some commentary on Judaism & Christianity too like:
Surah 9: 30. The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of God; that is what they say with their mouths, imitating the sayings of those who misbelieved before. God fight them ! how they lie !
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Really??? ok quickly interpreted this in a reasonable way that all can be happy with it. Surah 9: 30. The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of God; that is what they say with their mouths, imitating the sayings of those who misbelieved before. God fight them ! how they lie !
Trick question - you didn’t specify what the fight was about - the Orthodox and Roman Catholic could be fighting over something trifle like food, pets, sports, pocketbooks etc etc. Fighting or not fighting is not the measure of what is right or wrong, Truth is.
“non-negotiable essentials?” There Christ or no Christ, Truth or no Truth. You have to go no further then the Lord, Jesus Christ in comparing “the essentials.” There are no “compatible non-negotiable essentials;” when it comes to islam and Christianity, what both say about Jesus can not be true.
No, I haven’t done that. Why? What couldn’t Abraham and Moses say in there day that they had to wait thousands of years to say in the koran?
Jesus is the Son of God, that’s all that matters. It’s kinda self-evident that muslims don’t believe that, and Christians do, so with that where is there something being misconstrued in that?
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flower_of_God
Guest
How can you say to you God is Allah. From the arabic name’s point of view, yes. But from the perception of GOD in both religion it is completly wrong.
Muslems denie the Holy Trinity, for them Christ is just a prophet, and a lower one than Mohammed, he was never crucified.
This is essential. We are not reffering to the same GOD.
In the Biblie it is said to love your neighbour, to forgive, in Coran the reverse. If you want quotes from Coran i can bring you, but you can easely find them on the net as well.
Just reading Coran makes it more than clear that is is not divine, it is a complete contradiction to the Bible. There is only one truth, not more.
Yes, they claim there is 1 GOD, but in the same time they claim we pray to 3 GODS.
Try talking to a muslem and you will be shocked.
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flower_of_God
Guest
99% of the muslems are using this sentece regarding taking the verses out of context, in general when the verses are against what they claim…Oh… nice to see you back hamba…
We are not talking about “saints & angels”
And yes, I knew you were going to say “”" taking verses out of context"""
Regarding saints, although this is not the subject, you are missinformed. We don’t pray to them, we ask them to pray for us, which is different story. We don’t worship saints, we worship GOD.
Not every christian needs saint’s help, some pray direct to GOD, but saints are the example that we can pe pure, we can live according to GOD, they showed us the way, which is almost the hardest one.
We ask saints to pray for us, that’s it. They can pray much more efficient than we do.
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