Contemplativeprayer.net

[InLight247]

Nothing ignorant at all with your thinking. I have a young son with cancer and my own spiritual growth just so happened to coincide with his diagnosis — just as you say in your case. So I know exactly what you mean.

I have yet to meet a contemplative who didn’t have a heavy cross to bear. It is, afterall, the true way of Christ. Please know though, He won’t give us more than we can bear and it is all meant to bring us to closer union with Him . . . hard as that is to realize in the midst of all the pain.

I will certainly keep you and your family in my prayers . . .

Dave.

Sorry to know about your son. I’ll keep yours in my prayers too.

My daughter’s suffering is not physical. She is walking through the valley of her young life though, expericing one rejection after another in important areas of her life. I asked the same question to my SD, he told me to get rid of my such thinking and know that “To set yourself up for anguish, or think that God is putting a test on you is wrong.”

What you said is scary. And this is always my confusion.
I believe our Heavenly Father want to give us the best, all the good things. I believe we should never seek Cross or suffering,but when cross and suffering come, while carrying it and offering it up, we pray for the problem to be solved. I believe to hold a never give up attitude. I don’t believe God want your son to be sick. I believe to pray for his healing. In the Gospel, Jesus healed them all. Jesus has never refused to heal anyone.

“Ask and you will receive.” We must do the ask part, to be able to receive or not is another thing. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. I hope you are not saying that anything bad happen in life is the cross we are supposed to carry without resisting.

“Deliver us from evil”.

 

[DBT]

I asked the same question to my SD, he told me to get rid of my such thinking and know that “To set yourself up for anguish, or think that God is putting a test on you is wrong.”

What you said is scary. And this is always my confusion.

I think your SD is right on.

God comes to us in an infinite number of ways. Suffering to be sure . . . but also great joy. Be not afraid.

Deep down I think you already know the way through this . . . you’ve said as much on this very thread – perservering in prayer and diligence in the practice of virtue.

While nobody wants suffering . . . our greatest spiritual growth, I believe, occurs at precisely these times. It’s easy (so to speak) to be virtuous and feel closness to God when everything is going good — not so during the hard times.

Seek Him in all your thoughts, words and actions - in good times and bad - and you will surely find Him. I can tell from your posts He is closer than you might think. Abandon yourself into His loving hands and He will get you through . . .

Dave.

 

[blessedstar]

No offense but, this statement merely proves your ignorance of centering prayer.

Where does any one who practices or teaches Centering Prayer say this?

If you deem me ignorant then teach me.

If CP doesn’t demand union then teach me what it does do.

 

[blessedstar]

God does not cause suffering, He doesn’t desire it, He is sorry for every tiny suffering. He took suffering upon Himself to lessen our suffering and to bring peace between man and God. But God allows suffering for our own good and merit and this is where people stop believing in a Loving God. It is precisely because He loves us that in our lives He allows us to suffer our own passion. If we meditate on the Passion of Christ at some point in our life we can place ourselves in the scene as our Blessed Mother Mary, as the Good Thief, as Simon of Cyrene, as those who crucified Him, as the disciples who stood with Him, as Veronica who cared for Jesus and as Jesus, this gives us great strength to carry our own cross and know that we do not carry it alone, but Christ Jesus carries every cross with us.

We need not seek the Cross, the cross comes to us and everyone has at least one cross, that is people of no faith, people of all different beliefs, not just the Catholics, everyone has a cross.

The difference is not to seek the cross but to learn to love the Cross.

The cross is much easier to carry when we accept it and love the Cross of Christ Jesus. When we do not love the Cross we slide into hating it, struggling against it, this makes the cross much harder to carry and we can slip into sin by finding ways of rejecting the cross. When we love the Cross we accept it and do so desiring God’s will, this does not mean we do not ask for the cross to be lifted but we do ask for God’s will. God does not allow anything that He will not bring good from. No-one thought Calvary was going to result in the Ressurrection.

A Saint said ‘All is well, all manner of things are well’ sorry can’t remember the Saints name. In all circumstances we must trust that this is the case and God’s hand is over everything.

There is such great merit in suffering but it is hard to see and many don’t see this hidden jewel. They don’t recognise each tiny suffering is a jewel in their crown…

No cross, no crown.

This allows a docile spirit that trusts in God’s Providence. Love trusts in suffering and is truly shown to be love. Love of the Cross is love of the One Who died upon it, Christ Jesus.

‘Jesus, I trust in you’

 

[blessedstar]

continued

It would be wrong and even evil to not help others to carry their cross by action, word and prayer, because by loving the Cross of Christ Jesus it increases our love and compassion for others. This is the whole of the Gospel, to carry our own cross and help others to carry theirs for love of God and for the glory of His Name, which is Love.

If growing in strength to carry the cross causes us to have little patience for what we may deem the smaller crosses of others then we have lost sight of the Crucified One. Those of us who are stronger must help the weaker and in doing so the weaker will help us also, because the weakest have Christ as their strength as they still carry their cross despite their weakness and we must therefore be Christ Jesus to them.

Therefore to be truly Christ-like we also must be sorry for everyone else’s cross and seek to alleviate it, but like Jesus keep our eyes on the prize which is to rise and to rise in Him. To be truly Christ-like is to enter into our own suffering denying ourselves and to enter into the suffering of others denying ourselves, this truly alleviates suffering and may if God wills it, eliminate a particular suffering because only Love can do this. If we get distracted from this the weight of the cross can seem over-bearing, when no cross is over-bearing if we remain Christ-centered.

The Gospel and the central message of the Cross and forgiveness is not palitable to many being bitter-sweet, so many followers of Jesus fell away because whatever Jesus did and does so too His servants must do, but when they saw where the Cross led, they came back in droves and they flocked to the Eucharist. They still are flocking today.

In my prayers

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you deem me ignorant then teach me.

If CP doesn’t demand union then teach me what it does do.

I’m not a teacher. If you desire to learn about Centering Prayer, as it’s actually taught, get Father Keatings Book, “Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life: Open Mind, Open Heart, Invitation to Love, Mystery of Christ.”

amazon.com/Foundations-Centering-Prayer-Christian-Contemplative/dp/0826413978/sr=1-9/qid=1162046967/ref=sr_1_9/002-6774222-3700030?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[blessedstar]

I’m not a teacher. If you desire to learn about Centering Prayer, as it’s actually taught, get Father Keatings Book, “Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life: Open Mind, Open Heart, Invitation to Love, Mystery of Christ.”

amazon.com/Foundations-Centering-Prayer-Christian-Contemplative/dp/0826413978/sr=1-9/qid=1162046967/ref=sr_1_9/002-6774222-3700030?ie=UTF8&s=books

If you cannot explain CP, though you practise it, how can you say I am ignorant, how can you say what it does or does not do, how can you make good assessment and promote it?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you cannot explain CP, though you practise it, how can you say I am ignorant, how can you say what it does or does not do, how can you make good assessment and promote it?

I was commenting on the statements you posted;

Method, formula, method, formula, method, formula. What a rut to be in; a rut that says ‘I will create’ instead of ‘God will create’!

No where does CP teach that "I will Create instead of God, " but in fact the opposite. In CP we open ourselves up to God. It is not the technique that brings us to union with God, but God himself.

Then you said;

Centering Prayer says ‘I have a right, I am here, give it to me’.

Where did you get this? I have never seen this taught, nor have I experienced or seen this attitude from those who do CP.

 

[DBT]

I think blessedstar, Augustine and ThisOne have all raised very good points about the “traps” of any spiritual approach when practiced in a vaccum — I’ve seen this quite often with CP practicioners on this forum. Their own words often betray them.

My experience (like ThisOne’s) has been that many if not most of those who post on CP have little or no grounding in the writings of the Saints . . . often they don’t even know what Fr. Keating says. They know what they know . . . which usually simply comes down to “method” as blessedstar says.

And this is precisely what drives those with a foundation in the writings of the Doctors and saints completely nuts. Time after time I see two things in these discussions:

1. The grabbing after of spiritual gifts and utter failure to recognize who the initiator is in contemplation. Blessedstar and Augustine are completely right to see a lack of humility in all this . . . for St. Teresa speaks volumes on it.
2. The spiritual pride and attachment that comes with clinging to any spiritual approach and getting so argumentative about it — as pointed out by ThisOne. And St. John has so much to say on that.

The irony in all this is the more one tries to reference the writings of the Doctors or saints to point out these traps - that even Fr. Keating recognizes - the more ignorant and misinformed the poster is labeled. Not just here on this thread . . . but on almost every other CP thread I’ve seen in 2+ years.

Which brings us right back to Joysong’s point about beginners. IMHO, it’s not so much that what Fr. Keating teaches is wrong per se – but that he has failed to heed the explicit warnings of John, Teresa, the author of The Cloud about “when” on the spiritual journey a soul should be introduced to this way of prayer. That, IMHO, is the root cause of all the controversy over CP.

And the fact that there always seems to be arguements about CP - that you don’t see in other discussions of contemplation - should tell us all something. The message in all this shouldn’t be that pointing out the obvious red flags makes one ignorant and misinformed . . . perhaps it just might be the other way around.

Dave

 

[blessedstar]

I think blessedstar, Augustine and ThisOne have all raised very good points about the “traps” of any spiritual approach when practiced in a vaccum — I’ve seen this quite often with CP practicioners on this forum. Their own words often betray them.

My experience (like ThisOne’s) has been that many if not most of those who post on CP have little or no grounding in the writings of the Saints . . . often they don’t even know what Fr. Keating says. They know what they know . . . which usually simply comes down to “method” as blessedstar says.

And this is precisely what drives those with a foundation in the writings of the Doctors and saints completely nuts. Time after time I see two things in these discussions:

1. The grabbing after of spiritual gifts and utter failure to recognize who the initiator is in contemplation. Blessedstar and Augustine are completely right to see a lack of humility in all this . . . for St. Teresa speaks volumes on it.
2. The spiritual pride and attachment that comes with clinging to any spiritual approach and getting so argumentative about it — as happens all the time. And St. John has so much to say on that.

The irony in all this is the more one tries to reference the writings of the Doctors or saints to point out these traps - that even Fr. Keating recognizes - the more ignorant and misinformed the poster is labeled.

Which brings us right back to Joysong’s point about beginners. IMHO, it’s not so much that what Fr. Keating teaches is wrong per se – but that he has failed to heed the explicit warnings of John, Teresa, the author of The Cloud about “when” on the spiritual journey a soul should be introduced to this way of prayer. That, IMHO, is the root cause of all the controversy over CP.

And the fact that there always seems to be arguements about CP - that you don’t see in other discussions of contemplation - should tell us all something. The message in all this shouldn’t be that pointing out the obvious red flags makes one ignorant and misinformed . . . perhaps it just might be the other way around.

Dave

Thank you DBT you have expressed better than I ever could what my thoughts are. So I refer you Jim to DBT’s post.

Thank you DBT

 

[InLight247]

I think your SD is right on.

God comes to us in an infinite number of ways. Suffering to be sure . . . but also great joy. Be not afraid.

Deep down I think you already know the way through this . . . you’ve said as much on this very thread – perservering in prayer and diligence in the practice of virtue.

While nobody wants suffering . . . our greatest spiritual growth, I believe, occurs at precisely these times. It’s easy (so to speak) to be virtuous and feel closness to God when everything is going good — not so during the hard times.

Seek Him in all your thoughts, words and actions - in good times and bad - and you will surely find Him. I can tell from your posts He is closer than you might think. Abandon yourself into His loving hands and He will get you through . . .

Dave.

Thanks Dave, for your reply. I agree with every line you said here. You are right that actually deep down I had answers to my own questions. However, by discussing it, chewing on others’ and my own thoughts, help the answer becomes clearer.

Yes, when things are tough, it is not so easy to feel the closeness to God. I remember back in 1998 during the period when my adopted mother suddenly passed away, saying rosary from morning till night was how I got through. At that time, overloaded vocal prayers kept me close to God. I find often when hardship first appears, anxiety takes hold of me and seemingly alienates me from God for a moment. But God’s grace always quickly pull me back. Thank and praise the Lord!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My experience (like ThisOne’s) has been that many if not most of those who post on CP have little or no grounding in the writings of the Saints . . . often they don’t even know what Fr. Keating says.

I think this is a broadbrushed statement that is without merit.

No one in this thread has expressed the misinformation that is being attributed to CP.

However, those who have in your experience, are no different than Catholics who have received bad catechesis in their life time and as a result, misrepresent the teachings of the Church.

Those who don’t know Father Keating or have no knowledge of what he teaches, doesn’t make CP bad, any more than bad catechesis makes Catholicism bad…

However, to post misinformation by those who have not been instructed properly on Centering Prayer, with the more bad information, in order to defend the argument that Centering Prayer is dangerous, harmful or whatever, is silly.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

To clear the air of any misinformation about Centering Prayer, here’s what it is, according to Father Keating. Note, due to the 5000 word restriction on this site, I had to eliminate some parts. Go to the link to get the full text.

Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

When you become aware of thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.

At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.

Explanation of the Guidelines
“Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.” (cf. Open Mind, Open Heart, chap. 5)
The sacred word expresses our intention to be in God’s presence and to yield to the divine action.
The sacred word should be chosen during a brief period of prayer asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us with one that is especially suitable for us.
Examples: Lord, Jesus, Abba, Father, Mother
Other possibilities: Love, Peace, Shalom
Having chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period, for that would be to start thinking again.
A simple inward gaze upon God may be more suitable for some persons than the sacred word. In this case, one consents to God’s presence and action by turning inwardly toward God as if gazing upon him. The same guidelines apply to the sacred gaze as to the sacred word.

Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within."
By “sitting comfortably” is meant relatively comfortably; not so comfortably that we encourage sleep, but sitting comfortably enough to avoid thinking about the discomfort of our bodies during this time of prayer.
Whatever sitting position we choose, we keep the back straight.
If we fall asleep, we continue the prayer for a few minutes upon awakening if we can spare the time.
Praying in this way after a main meal encourages drowsiness. Better to wait an hour at least before Centering Prayer. Praying in this way just before retiring may disturb one’s sleep pattern.
We close our eyes to let go of what is going on around and within us.
We introduce the sacred word inwardly and as gently as laying a feather on a piece of absorbent cotton.

“When you become aware of thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.”
“Thoughts” is an umbrella term for every perception including sense perceptions, feelings, images, memories, reflections, and commentaries.
Thoughts are a normal part of Centering Prayer.
By “returning ever-so-gently to the sacred word”, a minimum of effort is indicated. This is the only activity we initiate during the time of Centering Prayer.
During the course of our prayer, the sacred word may become vague or even disappear.

“At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.”
If this prayer is done in a group, the leader may slowly recite the Our Father during the additional 2 or 3 minutes, while the others listen.
The additional 2 or 3 minutes give the psyche time to readjust to the external senses and enable us to bring the atmosphere of silence into daily life.
Some Practical Points
The minimum time for this prayer is 20 minutes. Two periods are recommended each day, one first thing in the morning, and one in the afternoon or early evening.
The end of the prayer period can be indicated by a timer, providing it does not have an audible tick or loud sound when it goes off
The principal effects of Centering Prayer are experienced in daily life, not in the period of Centering Prayer itself.

What Centering Prayer is not:
It is not a technique. It is not a relaxation exercise.
It is not a form of self-hypnosis. It is not a charismatic gift.
It is not a para-psychological phenomenon. It is not limited to the “felt” presence of God.
It is not discursive meditation or affective prayer.

thecentering.org/centering_method.html​

For a fuller explanaition on Centering Prayer and Contemplation, I highly recommend reading Father Keatings Book,
“Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life: Open Mind, Open Heart, Invitation to Love, Mystery of Christ”

 

[DBT]

I think this is a broadbrushed statement that is without merit.

AND

However, to post misinformation by those who have not been instructed properly on Centering Prayer, with the more bad information, in order to defend the argument that Centering Prayer is dangerous, harmful or whatever, is silly.

Jim, what’s really silly is that you don’t listen to what anyone has to say . . . so continued discussions are pointless

Besides, the more you speak . . . the more you make my points for me

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

Ephesians 2:19-22
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God."

In Christ, we are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. This is what stands out in my prayer this morning.

I am giving this Bible verse to you, my brothers and sisters in Christ on this thread.

 

[blessedstar]

1.How does CP provide for the practise of the Presence of God? I don’t see how it can when a ‘consent’ word must be used. If the Sacred Word can banish distractions (which I doubt it can) and is so powerful how come it disappears or becomes vague? Is God not present always whether we consent to it or not? It is we who forget God’s Presence. Hence the need to have a constant recollected heart, this way we pray constantly.

1. Being recollected to God does not mean we have to cease our senses. Who can cease their senses by themselves? No person can, only God can quiet the senses. No person can even strive to quiet their senses and no person can quiet their mind in totality, thoughts will always pervade and we shouldn’t become overly concerned by this. God desires to permeate all of our lives. To experience the peace of God and live in union with Him we must also be fully functioning in the world around, in other words, fully partcipating in Creation. How does CP transform people to be fully participating in the Creation as God intended?
2. It doesn’t matter what position a person is in for them to pray. How does it make a difference what position as outlined in CP to the prayer of a soul to God?
3. How does a prayer forumula such as CP have respect for how God may lead a soul to pray? If CP is so proficient in leading souls to union with God, which of course is what prayer does, then why are not all souls lead by this way? Why does St Teresa or St John not mention this method, if not by name, by formula?
4. Why would praying disturb the natural inclinations of the body? Prayer does not affect sleep, does not affect food intake, prayer is as natural as breathing and exists alongside and permeates all other human activities and orders everything in the Natural Order.
5. If thoughts are a normal part of centering prayer then why such an extreme effort to banish them and make the Sacred Word such a focus , infact central to the prayer? Thoughts are part of everyones prayer and people should not focus on trying to get rid of them, this can cause alot of distress but just to acknowledge the distraction and not to worry about it.

7 How is CP any different from Eastern meditation? It appears to have no differences in practise the only difference is who people are praying to

 

[blessedstar]

Ephesians 2:19-22
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God."

In Christ, we are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. This is what stands out in my prayer this morning.

I am giving this Bible verse to you, my brothers and sisters in Christ on this thread.

Thank you.

Unfortunately when methods are questioned and those methods mean more than unity arguments arise and insults are flung around. I am always troubled by the strong reactions when CP is questioned.

I have not yet seen a CP thread conducted in charity. This speaks volumes about this prayer method.

Perhaps then there is no discussion to be had in respect of CP if it is at the cost of charity and leads to disunity and lack of bearing with each other.

 

[InLight247]

Thank you.

Unfortunately when methods are questioned and those methods mean more than unity arguments arise and insults are flung around. I am always troubled by the strong reactions when CP is questioned.

I have not yet seen a CP thread conducted in charity. This speaks volumes about this prayer method.

Perhaps then there is no discussion to be had in respect of CP if it is at the cost of charity and leads to disunity and lack of bearing with each other.

I think if we see things from different point of view, we may have better understanding for the debating issue here.

For CP, personally I am neither for it nor against it. I was attracted to read Fr. Keating’s introduction to CP by his other book “Crisis of Faith” that I appreciated much. Base on that, I believe Fr. Keating has his solid foundation in Catholic teaching. He is not “not like a Catholic priest.”

I honestly don’t see CP holds the attitude of “I have a right, I am here, give it to me.” With my limited knowledge of CP, I think the sacred word is being used as an anchor to get start. Similar to starting with “Our Father…” as the beginning of the conversation,
CP uses, for example, “Lord Jesus” or “Jesus Christ” as a starting point. I don’t see anything wrong here.

As for getting rid of our own thoughts, I agree with you that “thoughts are part of everyone’s prayer”. I think the CP theory to get rid of one’s own thoughts and go back to the sacred word is for the purpose of clearing one’s mind to concentrate on God and God alone. My personal opinion on this part is that having my thoughts in front of Him does not impede me from being with Him. To fill our mind with the thoughts of God and to have emptiness or void of mind are two different things. We must avoid the emptiness or void of mind which is very dangerous.

I can understand for someone who has practiced CP for long time and enjoyed it, could get protective when receiving untrue statements about the method so near and dear. CP is not for everyone. For those who used it to get closer to God, as long as they know they are on the right track, we don’t have to worry. For those who have negative opinions about CP, stay away from it. For those who are thinking about exploring CP, do your home work and Scripture readings first, and don’t do CP without a priestly guidance.

Discussion about contemplation is precious. I hope to see we as seekers of contemplation do show love and care for each other by sharing our insights and experiences.

 

[blessedstar]

**

I can understand for someone who has practiced CP for long time and enjoyed it, could get protective when receiving untrue statements about the method so near and dear. QUOTE]

Why do you think what I have said is untrue?

Is prayer about ‘enjoying’ ourselves?

Why do we need a ‘method’ to pray that claims not to be a method …quote:‘centering prayer is not a technique’? What is it then?

Is love and care for each other exercised in name calling?

I am a Carmelite, should I say that those Great Carmelite Saints are secondary to Fr Keating’s method? Those Great Carmelite Saints know God’s action in prayer and the path to the gift of Contemplation and teach souls to recognise God’s action in prayer. Fr Keating on the other hand is directing action for human souls. It does not tell us anything that God does nor how He leads us in prayer and how to conduct themselves. There are discrepancies between the Saints and Fr Keatings teachings and considering this I know where my trust falls and that is with the Saints of the Church.

Prayer is God’s gift, not something we manipulate.

Yes discussion of contemplation is precious, but CP is not contemplation.**

 

[InLight247]

Dear Blessedstar:

I did not say particularly anything you said is untrue. What I meant is I do see some untrue statement on this thread, for example Fr. Keating is not like Catholic priest at all.

As for your other questions I have to answer later. I am going to 5:30 Mass right now, to be in the church earlier so I can pary and prepare my heart.
I have a outreach activity to go from 7:00 - 9:00. I will see you later.

Peace.