D
DBT
Guest
IMHO, absolutely correct! As St. Teresa says, “Humility, humility, humility!”
Dave
- Status
Dave
B
blessedstar
Guest
You have an ordered and wonderful attitude of heart, a humility I admire. You have your eyes set on Eternity and too often we are focused on the here and now. This focusing on the here and now can cause our desire to be close to God , to grow closer to God and to have union to take precedence over love and service of God.Bravo!
I myself don’t care whether God will lead me to contemplate Him in this life or not, as long as by His grace I can contemplate His face in the eternal life. I don’t care how close to Him He’ll lead me, as long as He keeps me among His flock.
I would say that someone who has a truly contemplative heart has an eternal heart, that is, they are living today for eternity and see their life not just as now but also as in eternity. This orders everything, that is, the striving for virtue, the desire to please and love God without any gifts and the desire to love and serve each other.
You are a free person in Jesus Augustine and a free person truly loves.
Thank you
D
DBT
Guest
You have an ordered and wonderful attitude of heart, a humility I admire. You have your eyes set on Eternity and too often we are focused on the here and now. This focusing on the here and now can cause our desire to be close to God , to grow closer to God and to have union to take precedence over love and service of God.
I would say that someone who has a truly contemplative heart has an eternal heart, that is, they are living today for eternity and see their life not just as now but also as in eternity. This orders everything, that is, the striving for virtue, the desire to please and love God without any gifts and the desire to love and serve each other.
You are a free person in Jesus Augustine and a free person truly loves.
Thank you
J
Joysong
Guest
I had decided to take a break from this topic, since saturation was getting the best of me. Oddly, I took a look at my book on CP by Basil Pennington that a friend sent me long ago, much of which I had forgotten. Pages that exposed his error were pinched, so I quickly came across this very disturbing Q&A session at the end of the book, pg. 238:
Never in all my years of Carmelite studies have I ever seen any such wording in our Doctors’ writings to describe God’s action in this manner. This* pseudo* mysticism is completely unorthodox and can hardly be called “prayer” in its truest sense. When God gifts the person with infused prayer, there is never a loss of consciousness.
Folks, if this is not ALC (altered levels of consciousness) that many sites have warned against, then I would like to know what else one would call it?
Never in all my years of Carmelite studies have I ever seen any such wording in our Doctors’ writings to describe God’s action in this manner. This* pseudo* mysticism is completely unorthodox and can hardly be called “prayer” in its truest sense. When God gifts the person with infused prayer, there is never a loss of consciousness.
A
Augustine
Guest
Dear Carole,
But it’s no surprise, as the late Fr. Pennington also supported EST, a cultist technique derived from methods of the Church of Scientology, and admitted to using it on himself.
Anyone who reads a brief description of TM can see where CP came from. CP is nothing but an attempt at cross-dressing TM with Christian terms, but it’s still TM, the product of the mind of a less than virtuous pagan.
This is text-book Transcendental Meditation, a meditation technique of hinduistic inspiration with a cult-like following, which Fr. Pennington praised in his books as well as its creator, the pseudo-yogi Maharishi, better known for his attachment to his hundreds of Rolls Royce limousines. It’s also been generally condemned by the CDF under Card. Ratzinger in this letter.Folks, if this is not ALC (altered levels of consciousness) that many sites have warned against, then I would like to know what else one would call it?
But it’s no surprise, as the late Fr. Pennington also supported EST, a cultist technique derived from methods of the Church of Scientology, and admitted to using it on himself.
Anyone who reads a brief description of TM can see where CP came from. CP is nothing but an attempt at cross-dressing TM with Christian terms, but it’s still TM, the product of the mind of a less than virtuous pagan.
I
InLight247
Guest
Ratzinger’s long letter is good to read. Thanks for the link.Dear Carole,
This is text-book Transcendental Meditation, a meditation technique of hinduistic inspiration with a cult-like following, which Fr. Pennington praised in his books as well as its creator, the pseudo-yogi Maharishi, better known for his attachment to his hundreds of Rolls Royce limousines. It’s also been generally condemned by the CDF under Card. Ratzinger in this letter.
But it’s no surprise, as the late Fr. Pennington also supported EST, a cultist technique derived from methods of the Church of Scientology, and admitted to using it on himself.
Anyone who reads a brief description of TM can see where CP came from. CP is nothing but an attempt at cross-dressing TM with Christian terms, but it’s still TM, the product of the mind of a less than virtuous pagan.
The following quotes especially stand out as an affirmation:
"Contemplative Christian prayer always leads to love of neighbor, to action and to the acceptance of trials, and precisely because of this it draws one close to God.
The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only “the pure of heart shall see God” (Mt 5:8). ………"
B
blessedstar
Guest
Thank you for the link Augustine.
These things stand out to me upon reading, prayer and considering it. (bold type taken from Letter, underlined emphasis mine)
It flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism which is incapable of a free openness to the transcendental God.
God is the Creator Who is unchanging, we are the created who are in dire need of change and must be open to the Creative force of God, we must change and our prayer changes and develops if in the Spirit by the Creative Will of the Father, in the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can not say in this life ‘I have arrived’ we can only say ‘I am beginning’
Contrary to the view of the Messalians, these are not necessarily a sign that the Spirit has abandoned a soul. Rather, as masters of spirituality have always clearly acknowledged, they may be an authentic participation in the state of abandonment experienced on the cross by our Lord, who always remains the model and mediator of prayer.
Prayer leads to the Cross both in the spiritual and the physical, it cannot attempt to bypass it. It is only by the Cross that we may truly follow Jesus and God willing rise in Him. This is true abandonment to God.
Contemplative Christian prayer always leads to love of neighbor, to action and to the acceptance of trials, and precisely because of this it draws one close to God.
‘Prayer’ by itself without works is not prayer just as faith without works is dead. Therefore prayer does not call us to retreat into the self nor does it call us to seek enjoyment but is a vigorous, dynamic and sometimes painful transformation in the Lord. Prayer is realised in the Natural World, in Creation, here life becomes prayer and as God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and then again with the OT saints, Moses and Elijah and finally with our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary and in the Divine Person of Christ Jesus in His Sacred Humanity, so God walks in the world with souls who contemplate Him in all things and whether in silence and solitude or in noise and the crowd, this prayer of life or more rightly described as Living Prayer is in itself the prayer of the life of our Lord Jesus Christ and if we look to the Lord’s Prayer this prayer is a call for Living Prayer, prayer in the spirit and prayer in the physical which is an imitation of our Lord Jesus and of which is most perfectly seen in Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.
Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27
Technique will not bring about Living Prayer which is contemplation. A soul cannot be submissive to God in all of their lives and plan their own methods. Our Holy Father clearly states this usurps the child our Lord asks us to be in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
continued
These things stand out to me upon reading, prayer and considering it. (bold type taken from Letter, underlined emphasis mine)
It flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism which is incapable of a free openness to the transcendental God.
God is the Creator Who is unchanging, we are the created who are in dire need of change and must be open to the Creative force of God, we must change and our prayer changes and develops if in the Spirit by the Creative Will of the Father, in the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can not say in this life ‘I have arrived’ we can only say ‘I am beginning’
Contrary to the view of the Messalians, these are not necessarily a sign that the Spirit has abandoned a soul. Rather, as masters of spirituality have always clearly acknowledged, they may be an authentic participation in the state of abandonment experienced on the cross by our Lord, who always remains the model and mediator of prayer.
Prayer leads to the Cross both in the spiritual and the physical, it cannot attempt to bypass it. It is only by the Cross that we may truly follow Jesus and God willing rise in Him. This is true abandonment to God.
Contemplative Christian prayer always leads to love of neighbor, to action and to the acceptance of trials, and precisely because of this it draws one close to God.
‘Prayer’ by itself without works is not prayer just as faith without works is dead. Therefore prayer does not call us to retreat into the self nor does it call us to seek enjoyment but is a vigorous, dynamic and sometimes painful transformation in the Lord. Prayer is realised in the Natural World, in Creation, here life becomes prayer and as God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and then again with the OT saints, Moses and Elijah and finally with our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary and in the Divine Person of Christ Jesus in His Sacred Humanity, so God walks in the world with souls who contemplate Him in all things and whether in silence and solitude or in noise and the crowd, this prayer of life or more rightly described as Living Prayer is in itself the prayer of the life of our Lord Jesus Christ and if we look to the Lord’s Prayer this prayer is a call for Living Prayer, prayer in the spirit and prayer in the physical which is an imitation of our Lord Jesus and of which is most perfectly seen in Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.
Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27
Technique will not bring about Living Prayer which is contemplation. A soul cannot be submissive to God in all of their lives and plan their own methods. Our Holy Father clearly states this usurps the child our Lord asks us to be in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
continued
B
blessedstar
Guest
Continued
There are certain “mystical graces,” conferred on the founders of ecclesial institutes to benefit their foundation, and on other saints, too, which characterize their personal experience of prayer and which cannot, as such, be the object of imitation and aspiration for other members of the faithful, even those who belong to the same institutes and those who seek an ever more perfect way of prayer.28 There can be different levels and different ways of sharing in a founder’s experience of prayer, without everything having to be exactly the same. Besides, the prayer experience that is given a privileged position in all genuinely ecclesial institutes, ancient and modern, is always in the last analysis something personal. And it is to the individual person that God gives his graces for prayer.
and
From the rich variety of Christian prayer as proposed by the Church, each member of the faithful should seek and find his own way, his own form of prayer. But all of these personal ways, in the end, flow into the way to the Father, which is how Jesus Christ has described himself. In the search for his own way, each person will, therefore, let himself be led not so much by his personal tastes as by the Holy Spirit, who guides him, through Christ, to the Father.
No two people should pray in the same way and I am a great advocate of this and this is why I strongly reject ‘styles’ and ‘methods’. Lectio Divinia and spiritual exercises such as given by our Great Saints are not methods, they do not tightly expound a style of prayer but they recommend good Christian practises always rooted in the Scriptures. The way that they are practised is pre-supposed by these great Saints and rightly so, to be within Christian Tradition and here in the diversity of spiritualities and individual personal relationships with Christ Jesus, the person prays in their own individuality with no method for this expounded, rather the only comment made is towards pitfalls and dangers in prayer.
We are created unique and each persons prayer is unique, there is no one size fits all, there is infact infinite sizes and each one fits only one soul. ‘My soul glorifies the Lord’ This is a profound word our Mother Mary speaks here on many levels, and here we see that only Mary’s soul can glorify God as only Mary can , so too we can all say with Mary, ‘My soul glorifies the Lord’ because only our soul can glorify God as our soul can in it’s uniqueness by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spouse of our Blessed Mother being the Holy Spirit and her word to Him was ‘Let it be done unto me according to Thy Will’ not to Mary’s tastes, but she is completely led by the Holy Spirit. We need the courage to follow our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary and abandon ourselves to God.
It is good to learn from the Great Saints and their example but we do not become saints by emulating other Saints, they became Saints by following the Lord and being who He intended them to be, so we become saints by becoming ourselves in Christ Jesus by His grace. This does not mean we give way to individualism nor to over personalisation, we take what is good and we recognise in Christ Jesus that we all speak with one voice and love with one heart, but we also recognise in each other’s uniqueness the face of Christ Jesus.
There are certain “mystical graces,” conferred on the founders of ecclesial institutes to benefit their foundation, and on other saints, too, which characterize their personal experience of prayer and which cannot, as such, be the object of imitation and aspiration for other members of the faithful, even those who belong to the same institutes and those who seek an ever more perfect way of prayer.28 There can be different levels and different ways of sharing in a founder’s experience of prayer, without everything having to be exactly the same. Besides, the prayer experience that is given a privileged position in all genuinely ecclesial institutes, ancient and modern, is always in the last analysis something personal. And it is to the individual person that God gives his graces for prayer.
and
From the rich variety of Christian prayer as proposed by the Church, each member of the faithful should seek and find his own way, his own form of prayer. But all of these personal ways, in the end, flow into the way to the Father, which is how Jesus Christ has described himself. In the search for his own way, each person will, therefore, let himself be led not so much by his personal tastes as by the Holy Spirit, who guides him, through Christ, to the Father.
No two people should pray in the same way and I am a great advocate of this and this is why I strongly reject ‘styles’ and ‘methods’. Lectio Divinia and spiritual exercises such as given by our Great Saints are not methods, they do not tightly expound a style of prayer but they recommend good Christian practises always rooted in the Scriptures. The way that they are practised is pre-supposed by these great Saints and rightly so, to be within Christian Tradition and here in the diversity of spiritualities and individual personal relationships with Christ Jesus, the person prays in their own individuality with no method for this expounded, rather the only comment made is towards pitfalls and dangers in prayer.
We are created unique and each persons prayer is unique, there is no one size fits all, there is infact infinite sizes and each one fits only one soul. ‘My soul glorifies the Lord’ This is a profound word our Mother Mary speaks here on many levels, and here we see that only Mary’s soul can glorify God as only Mary can , so too we can all say with Mary, ‘My soul glorifies the Lord’ because only our soul can glorify God as our soul can in it’s uniqueness by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spouse of our Blessed Mother being the Holy Spirit and her word to Him was ‘Let it be done unto me according to Thy Will’ not to Mary’s tastes, but she is completely led by the Holy Spirit. We need the courage to follow our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary and abandon ourselves to God.
It is good to learn from the Great Saints and their example but we do not become saints by emulating other Saints, they became Saints by following the Lord and being who He intended them to be, so we become saints by becoming ourselves in Christ Jesus by His grace. This does not mean we give way to individualism nor to over personalisation, we take what is good and we recognise in Christ Jesus that we all speak with one voice and love with one heart, but we also recognise in each other’s uniqueness the face of Christ Jesus.
B
blessedstar
Guest
**
Typing error: should read ‘Let it be done unto me according to Thy Word’**
J
Joysong
Guest
Hi Augustine,
It’s always a blessing to hear from you, and your post was full of good information. You have really done your homework!
There were other errors on my pinched pages of Pennington’s book, many dealing with Carmelite spirituality, but it may be unnecessary to extend this thread by posting them. I trust that a person will *realize instinctively *God when is not leading them to practice CP. For those who remain earnest about trying it … well, God be with them!
In Christ, Carole
It’s always a blessing to hear from you, and your post was full of good information. You have really done your homework!
There were other errors on my pinched pages of Pennington’s book, many dealing with Carmelite spirituality, but it may be unnecessary to extend this thread by posting them. I trust that a person will *realize instinctively *God when is not leading them to practice CP. For those who remain earnest about trying it … well, God be with them!
In Christ, Carole
I
InLight247
Guest
I agree with your statement, especially sometimes prayer is a painful transformation. But please elaborate “prayer by itself without works is not prayer.” Please explain the meaning of “prayer with work” to clarify. What is the nature of this “prayer” you are talking about here, is it in the petition, repenting, reflection, thanksgiving, or other mode which requires works. I think I may know wha you mean, but not sure. Thanks.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Dave,You know, it might be interesting to see what St. Teresa herself said of such things. The debate we’re having here was one that was not unknown in her time as well.
Here is a piece from Chapter 31 of “The Way of Perfection” which I sometimes see as a veiled reference to what CP practioners refer to as the sacred word:
I hesitated posting this any earlier in this thread in concern her words would be taken out of context. What is absolutely crucial to understand is when a soul should behave in such a manner in prayer.
Teresa is describing a soul already in the midst of infused contemplation and she is giving one of her many lessons on how one might turn away from interior distractions at such a time. This soul has passed beyond the prayer of recollection and is currently experiencing the prayer of quiet (4th dwelling place).
Thus, the meaning and use of “the word” is completely different in Teresa’s mind than what is taught in CP circles. This is no pre-cursor to contemplation . . . it is an aid in contemplation itself --a means to turn away from one’s thoughts and rest more deeply in the Lord’s presence. Perhaps, God willing, distractions will cease and the soul will be brought into even deeper union . . . the prayer of union itself (5th dwelling place).
Now, compare that quote to this one from “Interior Castle”:
What she is talking about here is our prayer before the Lord chooses to suspend/absorb our faculties in actual contemplation. Unlike what is taught in CP circles, we are not to somehow try and “manage” the process of arriving at contemplation by slowing down our minds. Our minds are to remain active in prayer until such time as the Lord decides otherwise. For, as St. Teresa teaches “recollection doesn’t come when we want it but when His Majesty grants it.”
Some might think this all just semantics . . . but the difference between what Teresa teaches and what is taught in CP circles is profound.
Dave
the above is Centering Prayer. The Sacred word is not the focus, nor is it contemplation. It’s merely the compass needle, pointing us back to our intention, when we are distracted by thoughts outside of prayer.
I can see why you hesitated to post it, because everything Teresa says in your quote, is what is taught and experienced, in Centering Prayer.
B
blessedstar
Guest
Prayer in and of itself is a work of mercy. If you pray for me with love you have done me a great good and mercy and you have also gained merit for yourself. But to pray simply for ones own ends and I don’t mean asking for graces and needs etc as our Lord ask us to do this, but to pray simply for oneself to attain a certain spiritual state and to pray with the aim of attaining one’s own consolation is not prayer. Prayer always leads to action and change or it is not prayer, rather it is a self-indulgence.
We do not live a Christian life simply so we can lay ourselves down to die and selfishly enjoy God for all eternity. We live a Christian life to begin the work of eternity here in this life, to pray forever, to love forever, to work and do God’s will forever because this is the Kingdom of Heaven ‘Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven’ and the stuff of faith. Then prayer is what it should be,a living prayer as our Lord exhorts us to ‘pray unceasingly’ not only in words but in actions. This Living Prayer becomes so interwoven that times of prayer are blended with the life of prayer in daily living and is one long continuous prayer, that accepts all things as grace and joy, even the cross. This is the road to contemplation where God walked in the Garden of Eden with humanity.
Without prayer faith will die and faith is not faith without good works and so I say prayer is not prayer without good works either.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
This contradicts everything you been saying against those who do Centering Prayer, which you have a problem with. Why if I say it works for me, you insist in telling me it doesn’t? If God speaks to me in my prayer, who are you to say He doesn’t?
All forms of prayer are methods. The Rosary, the Divine office, are all methods.
Let me ask you, what is wrong with my prayer method, when I sit with my eyes closed, and I say the words, “Lord Jesus,” while I rest in his presence?
Please explain how this is dangerous and wrong.
Jim
B
blessedstar
Guest
Jim I have not said to you to do anything, I cannot tell you how to pray, but what I can say to you is that this method tells you how to pray and it is a method and not a prayer. It will not cause you to grow and the entire object of prayer is to mature faith and cause the heart to grow in love and service of God and it is full of pitfalls where much is left to human perception and various ‘experiences’.
It is different from the Rosary etc in that all of those are scripturally based prayers, they are not methods, they are prayers and the Rosary is not dissimilar to Lectio Divinia. Those prayers do not give a method of prayer they give actual prayers and invite the soul to meditate on Sacred Scripture. They do not try and achieve a ‘spiritual state’ nor lay out a forumula to achieve a ‘spiritual state’.
I do not know if God speaks to you, neither can you know definitively, you cannot know what spirit speaks to you when you enter into such practises as you have. So I would say to you to ignore such things as believing God has spoken to you because such experiences are not God and no-one should cling to such things.
You have not found your own way of praying, you are following someone else’s proposed ‘method’ of praying that is not derived from Christian Tradition.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
You have been attacking my prayer life by your statements, and then tell me that my faith will not mature and grow in love and service of God. Really, do you presume to know how God works in my life?
Nothing I do, can bring me to union with Christ, only give me the transforming grace to do this.
Sorry, but both the Rosary and Lectio Divina are methods of prayer. In fact, Lectio Divina is the begining of Centering Prayer.
Read Father Keatings teaching about it. The Trappist are heavy into Lectio Divina. In fact, Father Keating says that novice monks are only allowed to do Lectio Divina, the first year of their novitiate.
But it’s not engraved in stone, the individual novice is guided by the novice master.
Neither does Centering Prayer attempt to achieve a spiritual state, by the use of a formulat(as you put it.) The Sacred Word in Centering prayer is only used to prepare us for prayer. It is not the focus of the prayer. In fact, it’s not repeated constantly but only when we become aware that we are distracted away from prayer.
I know when God speaks to me.
How do you know?
We all are following some one else’s method of praying. We are taught by masters of the past and in our time.
Centering Prayer is in the Christian Tradition. You just don’t understand it.
I’m not saying this as a put down, but you clearly do not understand Centering Prayer and I must say, you don’t understand what contemplative prayer is.
Jim
D
DBT
Guest
No Jim, I hesitated to post because I was afraid this was the conclusion you would draw
You need to read both the quotes I put in my post. Using the concept of a “sacred word” as a means to deal with distractions while one is in the midst of infused contemplation is one thing (which I’m OK with); using it as a means to help bring it about is quite another.
You will note St. Teresa doesn’t even begin to address things even remotely similiar to the concepts of CP until the 4th dwelling in “Interior Castle” and Chapt. 28 or so of “Way of Perfection.” What do you think she talks about in dwellings 1-3 and Chapters 1-27? Certainly not that. And that’s not even debatable, to be honest.
It seems to me St. Teresa’s words are a pretty harsh rejection of CP as it is taught today - - - as an aid in a pre-contemplative mode of prayer. If you’re not able to see that, I really don’t know what else to say . . .
In Carmel,
Dave
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
The sacred word isn’t used as a means of bringing us to contemplation. This has been repeated several times in here and by Father Keating. We are brought into contemplation by Christ. The prayer word, merely directs our intention to prayer. It settles into the mode of prayer. If saying the words, “Lord Jesus,” while I direct my heart towards Him is harmful. I like you or some one to explain.
I think your misunderstanding of Centering Prayer leads you to come to this conclusion.
How is it, myself, Peggy Wilkenson and other Carmelites, who understand what Centering Prayer is, do in fact see it in Teresa’s writings? Are we wrong and you’re right, is that it? Is Father Keating really so clueless, that he is misguided?
I’m not asking you to understand Centering Prayer, nor am I asking you to do it.
I’m merely attempting to rid the misconceptions about it.
Jim
D
DBT
Guest
Jim, when you get right down to it your beef isn’t with me . . . it’s with St. Teresa.
Dave
B
blessedstar
Guest
Very true DBT.
There is no need to be so angry about it Jim either. I have not attacked you nor been rude to you and neither has anyone else on this thread, but you have let your desire to defend CP cause you to be rude.
I don’t like the method you use to pray, but that is up to you however we are not debating your prayer life specifically, we are debating CP, if that is central to your prayer life then of course you will personalise it but these comments are in no way intended to be personal to you, they are in respect of CP. You take from that what you please as you are master of yourself and your soul.
The Holy Father has written on this when he was a Cardinal and Augustine kindly provided the letter in one of his posts. You might like to read it.
The Holy Father’s words are definitive for me alongside the teachings of the Carmelite Saints.
I wish you well and God Bless you always.
- Status