D
DBT
Guest
Hi InLight!
You might not realize it yet . . . but you’ve got it all figured out!
Dave
- Status
You might not realize it yet . . . but you’ve got it all figured out!
Dave
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear InLight,
Very wise words you have spoken, as one who has already grown beautiful wings! http://bestsmileys.com/angles/3.gif
What I learned, dear InLight, was that when one simply loves and does all it can to please God, He does the rest and will not fail to bring us to deep union with Himself. So simple, yet not always easy, but love makes the road sweet. Do we think God to be so stoic as to not reveal Himself to such a one? I think we will find Him a wonderful lover, and will not need to go about trying methods, for He and the soul will rejoice together in ways that intellectual pursuit will not engender.
Very wise words you have spoken, as one who has already grown beautiful wings! http://bestsmileys.com/angles/3.gif
What I learned, dear InLight, was that when one simply loves and does all it can to please God, He does the rest and will not fail to bring us to deep union with Himself. So simple, yet not always easy, but love makes the road sweet. Do we think God to be so stoic as to not reveal Himself to such a one? I think we will find Him a wonderful lover, and will not need to go about trying methods, for He and the soul will rejoice together in ways that intellectual pursuit will not engender.
D
DBT
Guest
Hi InLight!
It’s interesting, but I’m currently re-reading St. John’s Spiritual Canticle. What he talks about in the early stanza’s is exactly what you describe.
Dave
It’s interesting, but I’m currently re-reading St. John’s Spiritual Canticle. What he talks about in the early stanza’s is exactly what you describe.
- Working diligently in the practice of virtue
- Ardently longing for a more intimate union with God to the point it brings great suffering to the soul not to have it.
Dave
E
Ecat
Guest
Garrigou-Lagrange is the the best!.. The Three Ages of the Interior Life or His work on Contemplation…but it is not for beginners…
In the Trinity,
Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.
In the Trinity,
Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.
I
InLight247
Guest
Dear Joysong:
Thanks so much. You are right. Our Lord is so kind,gentle and loving. I like nothing more than being in solitude with Him. I just want to do my best and leave to God the rest. That includes my prayer life, my daily walk with Him and every details of mine and my loved ones’ lives.
God bless!
D
DBT
Guest
Hi Kevin and welcome!
I’ve been meaning to get this book for sometime . . . maybe I can talk Santa into bringing it as a stocking stuffer this year. On second thought, I better not. From what I hear the weight of it might break my mantle!!
You’re right though . . . I hear it’s a tremendous book.
Dave.
BTW - I see you’re a Secular . . . but I don’t recognize your initials. What order do you belong to?
D
DBT
Guest
Sure it is! It’s just a very preliminary form of it, though. In this contemplation we are still essentially “active.” God has not yet taken over which is the “passive” prayer of infused contemplation you rightly place in St. Teresa’s 4th Mansion.
Go back to JimR’s thread on Mental Prayer. There was much discussion on Recollection. This, to be sure, is the beginning of contemplation.
Also, St. John of the Cross sometimes refers to this prayer as “wounds” or “touches” – very similar to the deep longing you’ve expressed in several of your posts.
My guess is you’re farther along than you might think
Dave
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InLight247
Guest
I thought prayer of recollection is the beginning of contemplation, but wasn’t sure. Thanks for the clarification.Sure it is! It’s just a very preliminary form of it, though. In this contemplation we are still essentially “active.” God has not yet taken over …
Also, St. John of the Cross sometimes refers to this prayer as “wounds” or “touches” – very similar to the deep longing you’ve expressed in several of your posts.
My guess is you’re farther along than you might think
Dave
The “wounds”, ah, I often feels it, and I used to wonder if I were normal. It is good to have friends to discuss spirituality on the journey.
Say a prayer for me and my prayer intention tonight as I am very distressed right now. Thanks.
D
DBT
Guest
Yes it is normal . . . and it means you are well on your way
The suffering aspect to this . . . the deep, intense longing for deeper union is why these wounds also go by the name purgative contemplation. If you have access to St. John’s Spiritual Canticle you might want to read through the first 10 stanzas or so . . . I get the feeling you’ll probably relate to what he has to say.I’m just sitting down now for Night Prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours. I will offer it for your intention . . .
Dave
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ThisOne
Guest
What I think: For people who have no experience with interior prayer, CP could be an introduction of sorts if there is no interest in reading the important works, such as The Cloud of Unknowing and the contemplative saints, and if there is nothing better available.
I have found that people who follow CP just follow CP and that seems to be their goal, doing CP. It becomes their thing and very often is latched onto and clutched to the exclusion of allowing God to draw oneself into contemplation right there in the liturgy, where its roots are formed.
Danger? Yes, I think so, because it attracts a certain type of personality that misses the point of the liturgy.
I have found that people who follow CP just follow CP and that seems to be their goal, doing CP. It becomes their thing and very often is latched onto and clutched to the exclusion of allowing God to draw oneself into contemplation right there in the liturgy, where its roots are formed.
Danger? Yes, I think so, because it attracts a certain type of personality that misses the point of the liturgy.
J
Joysong
Guest
JimR:
I’m not sure where you obtained the quote from St. John, since I haven’t read Keating, only Pennington … and he did not mention this.
Jim, at the time you posted this, I did not research it, but St. John’s words did seem to be taken out of context.
What I found in the very same chapter you quoted from were these words:
In speaking about the detachment one must exercise in the later stages of spiritual growth, St. John does not intend to include or address beginners, but proficients. He also used a very specific word “detachment,” which means not to mentally cling to former images conceived in one’s meditation or through supernatural images granted by God, but to realize these are not God, and therefore incapable of bringing them to union with God. As thoughout all of his writings, he brings the reader to rest in dark faith — letting go of its former conceptions — not admitting the image into our conscious thoughts.
I’m not sure where you obtained the quote from St. John, since I haven’t read Keating, only Pennington … and he did not mention this.
May I ask you to comment on your initial use of CP? Were you a “beginner?” when you practiced it, or had you already advanced beyond meditation and felt a readiness for it? It seems that this problematic sticking point is the root of our disagreement. All along, we have said that it is not appropriate for beginners, and we see that St. John teaches the same thing in the chapter you cited. So how is CP a “nice fit?” in the teaching of Carmel, unless one is well beyond the stage of a beginner?
B
blessedstar
Guest
Method, formula, method, formula, method, formula. What a rut to be in; a rut that says ‘I will create’ instead of ‘God will create’!
If meditation is seen as a means to contemplation then really we had all better stop meditating because we have taken our eyes of our Meek and Humble Lord.
Are we such grasping children? Don’t we think that God will give us all good things if we just simply pray, live the Gospel by the sacrifice of our daily life and wait on Him in humility making ourselves very small instead of thinking we have a right to contemplate God?
We have no rights, none at all.
Centering Prayer says ‘I have a right, I am here, give it to me’. Where is the humility in this that the Lord so greatly loves? It is this lack of humility that can be the pitfall for many.
To be drawn into contemplation by God a soul must simply be sincere as a disciple and servant of Christ Jesus accepting the Gospel of Love and living out love in their lives and God will rush to such a soul and by His grace prune and shape the soul and prepare it for the marriage feast. All the soul must do is remain obedient, give it’s ‘fait’ and be persevering.
If meditation is seen as a means to contemplation then really we had all better stop meditating because we have taken our eyes of our Meek and Humble Lord.
Are we such grasping children? Don’t we think that God will give us all good things if we just simply pray, live the Gospel by the sacrifice of our daily life and wait on Him in humility making ourselves very small instead of thinking we have a right to contemplate God?
We have no rights, none at all.
Centering Prayer says ‘I have a right, I am here, give it to me’. Where is the humility in this that the Lord so greatly loves? It is this lack of humility that can be the pitfall for many.
To be drawn into contemplation by God a soul must simply be sincere as a disciple and servant of Christ Jesus accepting the Gospel of Love and living out love in their lives and God will rush to such a soul and by His grace prune and shape the soul and prepare it for the marriage feast. All the soul must do is remain obedient, give it’s ‘fait’ and be persevering.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Boy, in looking back, I really had to think about how and when I learned CP? Anyway, I was into the Charismatic movement, when I first received the gift of faith. After about a year, I was getting frustrated in prayer. Prayer meetings were a distraction more than an path towards spiritual growth. I had just began teaching Confirmation classes when I attended a CCD Teachers Conference, where one of the work shops was on CP, presented by a diocesan priest. It was exactly what I was looking for, and I knew that this is where the Lord was leading me. I soon left the Charismatic movement and began my journey towards contemplative prayer.
I think that what John and Teresa say about beginers, which the Cloud of Unknowing says, if that a person were taught mental prayer before they were ready, they will abandon it and their fear was that this could be detrimental for them.
But what does it mean to be a beginer? In Teresa and John’s day, contemplative prayer was something new for the culture around them, who had been taught vocal prayer alone. The inquisition was in full swing and there were heresies all around them. Their teachings were being attacked by many of teachers in the Church and even by the members of their own orders. St John was persecuted for what he was teaching and placed in prison. A beginer of their day, who attempted to move into mental prayer before they were ready, would abandon it, and end up back in the vocal pray style that was the norm for their day. It would also help feed the fuel against their teaching, by those who opposed it.
I’ve seen people who are not ready, try Centering Prayer. They get nothing from it, and return to their vocal prayers, which from what I can see, they do out of conditioning more than a path to contemplation. I saw such people in my OCDS group.
I believe that some are ready because the grace of God has drawn them to such a level, quickly. Other’s will never reach that level, regardless.
Even Teresa says in effect, that God brings people into the different mansions differently. Some faster than others, and there’s no understanding to it, but God who know’s all, undersands.
So, to say a beginer shouldn’t be taught Centering Prayer, well I just don’t believe that. If God is moving them in that direction, it will work for them. If not, they’ll abandon it.
I hope I answered the question?
Jim
A
Augustine
Guest
I have the same evaluation. True Christian spirituality is about Grace and the Cross. CP proposes to present a shortcut to “milk graces” from God. How can a technique to achieve what only God can give be called spiritual?
Read Fr. Keating’s own words and try to figure out if they look like those of a Catholic priest: livingrosaries.org/interview.htm. Where’s Grace? Where’s the Cross? Where’s Jesus Christ? Why pollute the rich Catholic contemplative tradition with faulty pagan notions of God? Couldn’t he find an OCD monk to teach contemplation to his brothers? Why seek something foreign to his order charisma anyways? It’s no wonder that CP finds great support among the Leadership Conference of Women Religious…
If anything, it’s impossible to reconcile his views with those of JPII’s and Card. Ratzinger’s. And between them and Frs. Keating and Pennington I prefer to side by our late Holy Father and our current one.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
No it doesn’t.
Please explain this statement.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
No offense but, this statement merely proves your ignorance of centering prayer.
Where does any one who practices or teaches Centering Prayer say this?
I
InLight247
Guest
Dave:
Thanks for your much needed prayers.
Currently enduring and reflecting on suffering, I have to admit sometimes it is not easy to take the test our Lord allows.
I always have a fear that because God only allow us to take the burden we are capable to carry, when our capacity of sustaining suffering increases, our suffering may also increase. However, on the other hand, even if I were not walking closely with the Lord, things still could happen.
St. Teresa said in the prayer of quiet “………a more lively faith begets a desire for penance and a diminution of fear of suffering…” (quote of St. Teresa in the book of
Fire Within p. 89). Desire for penance, yes, diminution of fear of suffering, I have long way to go.
Even though I willingly offer up my suffering, I pray the problem quickly solved, new result quickly come through, especially my suffering is because of my beloved child’s suffering. I seem to mentally suffer more than she does. I don’t want God to test my faith at the cost of my daughter’s benefit. Could it be so?
I thought I have walked a long way on my spiritual journey this year. And it seems the hard times my child experienced starts within the same time frame. Bear with me for my ignorant thinking.
D
DBT
Guest
Nothing ignorant at all with your thinking.
I have a young son with cancer and my own spiritual growth just so happened to coincide with his diagnosis — just as you say in your case. So I know exactly what you mean.I have yet to meet a contemplative who didn’t have a heavy cross to bear. It is, afterall, the true way of Christ. Please know though, He won’t give us more than we can bear and it is all meant to bring us to closer union with Him . . . hard as that is to realize in the midst of all the pain.
I will certainly keep you and your family in my prayers . . .
Dave.
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