Convert Case Sparks Surge of Interest in Christianity Among Afghans

[pro_universal]

Semper Fi:

Um. I think I was pretty clear in my definition in who I was calling a terrorist here. Now, when you go around asking for money to help Palestinian kids find doctors and medicine, and your money ends up going to support Hezbollah or Hamas, yes you are supporting a terrorist organization. These groups use the methods above that I have described. I just don’t get why you continue to play semantics here. The facts remain the same and most people can see through your propaganda. I really have no wish to discuss anything further with you at all because you continue to minimize the effects of Muslim aggression and violence.

And you minimize the effects of Israeli violence against Palestinians? I don’t see how this argument works. Hezbollah is not, by any rational definition of the term, as much a terrorist organization as it is a paramilitary force. They buy heavy equipment, operate out of a country that hosts them (Lebanon), and for the most part attack Israeli troops and outposts in Southern Lebanon/Northern Israel.

Hamas has certainly carried out terrorist attacks, but not for a while…unlike the Israelis, they have actually honored the cease fire agreement.
Semper Fi:

Also, you can continue to call it “Catholic-designed” all you want, and even if there was a Catholic bishop directly involved (which I doubt), then they would be condemned just as the IRA has been. Then again, this is not a thread about Catholics but a thread about Muslims and you yet again continue to bring up Catholics instead of talking about the issue at hand.

Has the IRA been condemned? Does anyone bash the Church over its involvement in liberation-theology inspired revolutions?

Not that I’ve seen, and I’d be the first to respond if someone did attack our Church for its role in either conflict. The reason I brought it up was to point out that the Church has contact with groups that politicians would call terrorists, even though their struggles are not primarily against or involving civilians. Hence, simply laying out the charge “they are linked to terrorism” doesn’t really prove the point.

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

And you minimize the effects of Israeli violence against Palestinians? I don’t see how this argument works. Hezbollah is not, by any rational definition of the term, as much a terrorist organization as it is a paramilitary force. They buy heavy equipment, operate out of a country that hosts them (Lebanon), and for the most part attack Israeli troops and outposts in Southern Lebanon/Northern Israel.

Hamas has certainly carried out terrorist attacks, but not for a while…unlike the Israelis, they have actually honored the cease fire agreement. .

That’s a red herring. Whether or not Israeli violence is terrorist activity isn’t the subject at hand. And your definition of Hezbollah as a paramilitary force rather than a terrorist organization is - your definition.
Hamas has carried out terrorist attacks. Right now there is a cease fire. Does that make it OK to send donations to Hamas now?

pro_universal:

Has the IRA been condemned? Does anyone bash the Church over its involvement in liberation-theology inspired revolutions?

Not that I’ve seen, and I’d be the first to respond if someone did attack our Church for its role in either conflict. The reason I brought it up was to point out that the Church has contact with groups that politicians would call terrorists, even though their struggles are not primarily against or involving civilians. Hence, simply laying out the charge “they are linked to terrorism” doesn’t really prove the point.

I could dig up condemnations of the IRA but for the sake of the argument I won’t. Let’s say the IRA has not been condemned. Is the IRA moral? Is any terrorism, sponsored by any organization, moral?

 

[cestusdei]

Emad,
I was in the military. I served. I would again. If you are on our side then show it. Where are the thousands of muslims clamoring to enlist and fight for our nation? I don’t see them lining up.

 

[Emad]

cestusdei:

Emad,
I was in the military. I served. I would again. If you are on our side then show it. Where are the thousands of muslims clamoring to enlist and fight for our nation? I don’t see them lining up.

My point is you are acting like I am not a westerner and you are. Does every American have to join the army to prove he loves his country? What if he doesn’t agree with what the army is doing? If I disagree with America does that no longer make me an American? Seems racist to me, that I am only American when I blindly follow everything my country does.

I love this country for so many things, but I also will not accept the wrong it does neither will I participate in it. And why are you obsessed with fighting? Aren’t you supposed to turn the other cheek or something?

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Is any terrorism, sponsored by any organization, moral?

No. It is all absolutely immoral. That’s what I’ve been trying to say, and of course, no one seems to challenge the idea that terror attacks on America and Europe are immoral.

However, cestusdei has specifically advocated using nukes on Muslim cities as a response to things like the case of abdul rahman.

The reason I dispute the issue of which is a terrorist organization here is to argue against the developing meaning of “terrorist” as “perjorative for any group we don’t like.” Not all evil people are terrorists, and not all legally defined terrorists are cartoon character suicide bombers.

 

[cestusdei]

Emad, well there is the crux of the matter. I think fighting terrorism is a good thing. You and pro feel it is wrong to fight terrorism. I am on our side you are basically on their side. And you wonder why we distrust muslims?

PS: Actually I posited their use as a response to an Islamic nuclear attack. Pro consistantly will not condemn any Islamic terrorist act. Even ones against children, civilians, or our own country. However, he is quick to justify their attacks and condemn our responses. Again, which side does that put him on?

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

Emad, well there is the crux of the matter. I think fighting terrorism is a good thing. You and pro feel it is wrong to fight terrorism. I am on our side you are basically on their side. And you wonder why we distrust muslims?

No, this is not the case. You are willfuly misrepresenting my position here.

I have not once said it’s wrong to fight terrorism.

The issue is: Is it proper to fight terrorism by means of using nuclear weapons to terrorize all muslims?

You are not on our side. You are on the side of barbarism, and wish to make us like you by inducing others to share your opinion that it’s permissible to kill millions of people because they share a marginally related creed with Osama bin Laden.

PS: Actually I posited their use as a response to an Islamic nuclear attack. Pro consistantly will not condemn any Islamic terrorist act. Even ones against children, civilians, or our own country. However, he is quick to justify their attacks and condemn our responses. Again, which side does that put him on?

Again, please provide some Church support or even rational support for the notion that responding to a nuclear terrorist attack by Nuking mecca is permissible.

Last I checked, there was no rule of Just War thinking that said “If they kill your kids, you can kill their kids.” Cestus, why don’t you explain that to us from your position as a Priest. Where in the Authorities will I find “if they nuke us, we can nuke them” morally justified?

 

[cestusdei]

You willfully misrepresent me, so I figure you don’t mind the return favor. You weren’t very concerned about poor Abdul. So your whining about human rights doesn’t come off very convincing. Liberals have the template that the US is wrong no matter what. You live up to that very well.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

You willfully misrepresent me, so I figure you don’t mind the return favor. You weren’t very concerned about poor Abdul. So your whining about human rights doesn’t come off very convincing. Liberals have the template that the US is wrong no matter what. You live up to that very well.

Please tell me what view of yours I have misrepresented.

You explicitly sanctioned the use of nuclear weapons as a reprisal to a nuclear terrorist attack. Now I’m asking you for Church justification on that proposition, since everything I can find holds any murder of civilians at all to be evil of the highest order.

So, why can’t you provide the teaching? I haven’t whined about human rights or anything…I’ve provided a Catholic perspective on murdering civilians, and you have provided nothing but the claim that I support terror. How about some substance for a change?

 

[Emad]

cestusdei:

Emad, well there is the crux of the matter. I think fighting terrorism is a good thing. You and pro feel it is wrong to fight terrorism. I am on our side you are basically on their side. And you wonder why we distrust muslims?

PS: Actually I posited their use as a response to an Islamic nuclear attack. Pro consistantly will not condemn any Islamic terrorist act. Even ones against children, civilians, or our own country. However, he is quick to justify their attacks and condemn our responses. Again, which side does that put him on?

Again if I disagree with what the army is doing how does that mean I agree with terrorism? I can be against both can’t I? In fact I think they are both terrorism.

 

[cestusdei]

pro, let’s repeat. Muslims nuke the US and you say “oh goody”. If we respond in kind you say “oh how terrible”. That sums it up. You don’t care about nuclear attacks if they are against us only if they are against the terrorists. So I don’t see you as really having any objection to nuclear war per se, just if we respond in kind to wmd.

emad, that is why you are a terrorist sympathizer and why I am so hard on muslims. They don’t see the diffence between terrorism and our war against it. If a pizza restaurant of Jewish kids is blown up you see no problem. If we go after Islamic terrorists who do such things you object. This is why no one believes muslims are really against terrorism. You rally to our enemies and undermine our war against them. Many of us see that as treason. Wait till they attack us at home again. You will quickly find that you and pro will not be viewed in a very friendly light by the survivors. The underlying idea of, “well the US deserves it and needs to change”, will be reversed to “the muslims deserve it and need to change”. I have no patience with those who support the terrorists and equate us with them. That is, I say again, treason against the United States. It gives aid and comfort to our enemies.

 

[pro_universal]

pro, let’s repeat. Muslims nuke the US and you say “oh goody”. If we respond in kind you say “oh how terrible”. That sums it up. You don’t care about nuclear attacks if they are against us only if they are against the terrorists. So I don’t see you as really having any objection to nuclear war per se, just if we respond in kind to wmd.

Okay, first of all, please post a quote where I indicate an “oh goody” for islamist terrorist attacks of any kind. That is an accusation you keep repeating, but curiously can never provide anything I’ve said to support. All terrorism and attacks are wrong, period. I’ve said it repeatedly, and I’d appreciate it if you’d stop making the claim without support.

Second, where’s the Church teaching on this? If you’re a Priest, what makes it so hard for you to provide theological support for your opinion that retaliatory nuclear strikes are permissible?

 

[cestusdei]

pro, why do you refuse to condemn Islamic terrorism, including nuclear terrorism, and our right to defend ourselves from it? I keep asking that and never get an answer.

 

[Emad]

Emad black
Ces blue

that is why you are a terrorist sympathizer

Show me one place where I sympathize with terrorists.

They don’t see the diffence between terrorism and our war against it.

Just like you don’t see the difference between your war on terrorism and the killing of innocent people, which is terrorism itself.

If a pizza restaurant of Jewish kids is blown up you see no problem

Where did I say that? In fact I think it is a big problem and I condemn it everytime it happens.

If we go after Islamic terrorists who do such things you object.

Why do you have to go after people who blow up kids in Israel? Leave that to Israel. Also I am not against going after terrorists, I am against killing innocent people in the name of going after terrorists.

You rally to our enemies and undermine our war against them.

I don’t remember doing that. On a side note, aren’t you taught to love your enemies? Do you love them? I don’t care, just curious. I certainly don’t love any terrorists.

The underlying idea of, “well the US deserves it and needs to change”, will be reversed to “the muslims deserve it and need to change”.

If you see your child doing something wrong you ask them to change. Allowing your child to do whatever they want just because you love them will destroy your child. I love this country, I believe what they are doing is wrong, so I am against it. That’s my right and I don’t care if you like it or not. My country gives me the right to believe and say what I want, if you don’t like it leave.

Also no Muslim countries have nuclear weapons. If you are fighting with someone and you have a stick, isn’t it fair if they have a stick too?

Also it seems like you are forcing your beliefs on me, like if I don’t agree with you I am automatically a terrorist sympothizer or something, grow up!!

 

[Emad]

cestusdei:

pro, why do you refuse to condemn Islamic terrorism, including nuclear terrorism, and our right to defend ourselves from it? I keep asking that and never get an answer.

Show me one verse where Islam teaches terrorism. Islam has nothing to do with terrorism or terrorists. Also perhaps others think it is their right to defend themselves from your nuclear terrorism, ever thought of that? America and all countries should get rid of their nukes, it’s not going to do humanity any good.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

pro, why do you refuse to condemn Islamic terrorism, including nuclear terrorism, and our right to defend ourselves from it? I keep asking that and never get an answer.

I condemn terrorism by Al Qaeda and all other “muslim” terrorist organizations. It is evil.

Now, our right to defend ourselves is absolute…but it is also absolutely restricted to attacking combatants. You keep trying as hard as you can to misdirect the issue, so I will ask you clearly once more:

Please provide religious authority for using nuclear weapons on muslim holy sites in response to nuclear terrorism.

I cannot make it any more simple. If you refuse to answer the challenge again, I will assume it’s because you have no support, and are openly advocating an evil policy. That you identify yourself as a Priest while doing so makes you worse than any external attacker the Church has; you’re a supposed member of the Clergy who isn’t even honest enough to explain himself.

 

[Emad]

pro_universal:

Second, where’s the Church teaching on this? If you’re a Priest, what makes it so hard for you to provide theological support for your opinion that retaliatory nuclear strikes are permissible?

He is a priest? :bigyikes: Yea, I thought you are supposed to be teaching people to turn the other cheek? Do you have scripture to back up your stance Mr?

 

[Emad]

pro_universal:

I condemn terrorism by Al Qaeda and all other “muslim” terrorist organizations. It is evil.

Now, our right to defend ourselves is absolute…but it is also absolutely restricted to attacking combatants. You keep trying as hard as you can to misdirect the issue, so I will ask you clearly once more:

Please provide religious authority for using nuclear weapons on muslim holy sites in response to nuclear terrorism.

I cannot make it any more simple. If you refuse to answer the challenge again, I will assume it’s because you have no support, and are openly advocating an evil policy. That you identify yourself as a Priest while doing so makes you worse than any external attacker the Church has; you’re a supposed member of the Clergy who isn’t even honest enough to explain himself.

:clapping:

 

[theguidedheart]

Emad:

What is Islamic terrorism? Show me one verse from the Quran (in context) that says to blow yourself up, kill anyone just because they aren’t Muslim, kill civilians or anything of that nature. Saying Islamic-terrorism is like saying Islamic-Christianity, they can’t be together, either it is terrrorism or Islamic, Islamic or Christian, the two are different and can’t be the same.

Its great to see you know the distinction, but surely you can not help but admit that some of your counterparts do not.

 

[theguidedheart]

Emad:

The religion of pieces? lol What kid of pieces, reses pieces, hmmm making me hungry What does the individual acts of Muslims have to do with Islam? I hear of priests molesting kids alot, I don’t blame your religion for it. Also a lot of the drug dealers in my area have crosses around their necks, should I blame your religion?

Again you are refusing to see all the Muslim organizations and scholars below who condemn it. Are they all liars? You know what Islam is and they don’t right?

I do not want to join an argument, but as a citizen in the West, and as a Christian, I can tell you that Jesus Christ is blasphemed in every way possible in our society, and yet the Christian community is calm and collected in their response. Yet Mohammed (who is not even God by the way), was simply DRAWN in comic strips, it results in animalistic and barbaric behavior from Muslims all around the world. Now I will admit, many Muslims spoke out against it, but it does not change the fact that LARGE numbers of Muslims resorted to this type of behavior as a reponse, and in some of Islam’s most deeply rooted places. Now if these people are devout in their faith, wouldn’t they of all people know the teachings of Islam? How is it that they still managed to react out of context in such a way that it resulted in deaths of innocent people? I will give credit to those Muslims who spoke out against it, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is a big misconception even within the crowds of the Muslim public about their own faith.