Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

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OMG! You saw through that! Next time I’ll be a little more subtle. 😉 I’d be really surprised if Xavier posted again. Hey, how comes we don’t have any “devil” smilies?
 
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Wildgraywolf:
Interesting twist… I can appreciate that… You are none-the-less proceeding from false assumptions ending in erroneous conclusions. Your thinking is flawed. You are more interested in mere appearances and in keeping with the letter of the law; than in keeping with “in spirit and in truth”. How is it that your “knowing” takes precedent over our explanations of why? Perhaps you think yourself a mind reader? Have you some ability to know the sincerity of a person’s heart? Do you know what motivates people and why? If not; then you have no reason not to accept what has been said on this topic.

We have all answered your “concerns” honestly and in good spirit, why then do you persist in believing in untruths and in further perpetrating lies?

Why haven’t you answered any of my previous questions? By not responding you demonstrate a lack of sincerity and credibility.

Why should I take you seriously? And what witness do you present to me by silence and/or evasion?
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I will answer your questions, if there be some sincerity in your questions of if there be a lurker here that does want to know.
 
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Wildgraywolf:
. Would you be happy to take down all of the crosses on Christian churces (God didn’t tell anyone to make them) or maybe send the statue of Liberty back to France? With all due respect it’s sheer, stupidity to believe that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc worship graven images. I ask you; do you honestly believe we worship statues, icons, etc.? After reading all the other posts do you really believe that? Do you think we are liars? Do you think we are collectively “covering up” idolatry?
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No do not take down the crossesl
Yes take down the statue of liberty,
I believe that you believe that you do not worship graven images.
I do not think you are liars.
I think you a sadly decieved.

When Moses asked God who should I say is sending me. YVHW said I am who I am. Old Testament names were a indication of the nature,character of that which was named. YVHW can not be limited cannot be contained in a label, name of identidy.

When we have an image and think of that image or contemplate on that image we are putting limits on God much in the same way as giving YVHW a name.

Contemplatives will sit silently for hours to find, come into of the very presense of God. They will banish all thoughts, even thoughts of God, because thoughts of God are not God. They will sit in this exercise until they God is found.

Statues, images are an obstacles in our journey to know God.
 
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Wildgraywolf:
Well, now we know that God doesn’t like people worshiping graven images a.k.a. idols, but let’s look at those times when God has ordered their creation. Perhaps you will show context for the following or better yet explain why God ordered them to be created and what purpose could their creation could possible serve? Who would God curse in these instances?

“[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).

“The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole” (Num. 21:8-9).

“He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).

“[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east” (1 Kgs. 7:25)**.

“And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about” (1 Kgs. 7:36).

You **must **be aware of these verses (they’ve been posted all over the place) and yet folks like yourself choose to cling to such willful stupidity.You judge wrongly, unjustly, and unrighteously. Your conclusions are based solely on appearances for appearances sake, without considering the “why”, and the “whys” have been explained at great length in previous posts. What can you possibly not understand? How can you not possibly understand what’s been said here? A wise man loves correction, but the senseless one heeds no rebuke. (Prov 13:1). Well, you’ve been corrected and rebuked.

Here’s some further helpful links to help you along, but I’m certain understanding is not a goal for you.

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=20339

[newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm)
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I have answered most of this. but let me add.
To worship is to bow down. If our human spirit bows down to any thing, person or place then idolitry occurs.
How can you attempt to correct?
 
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Wildgraywolf:
I

You haven’t answered my questions…
  1. Why did God order the creation of those images?
  2. What purpose of His would you suppose they served?
  3. Should we destroy every and all crosses because they weren’t created by God’s command?
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  1. He didnt consult me on that one.
  2. In both cases the images were types and shadows of things to come.
    3.No
 
Originally posted by MichaelP : Frankly, it looks just like henotheism.
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Where have I gone wrong?
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I don’t mean to accuse, I just thought that I would show you the association.
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The biggest difference is the Saints and Mary are creations who’s image is God’s. Their lives more fully expressed that image on earth and the pattern of their lives can be said to be standards or even rulers to measure our lives by comparison. In this light we look up to them as we seek the Lord and they in turn point us more directly to Him who is ruler of all.
 
Catholics do worship Mary and the saints. However, Catholics understand the word worship in its older definition, which more generally means showing reverence to someone.
 
I figure, if protestants say we venerate Mary at the same level they worship God, they’re the ones who need to step it up. If they only worship God as we venerate Mary, they are falling WAY short of the proper adoration God deserves.
 
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Xavier:
No do not take down the crosses.
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Why not? A graven image is worth no more than the sum of its materials. It is hypocritical to make such a distinction. As images go crosses are no different than a statue or picture religious or otherwise. Unless of course those crosses, statues, paintings, etc. are used to help recall the person, thing, or event for the purpose of focusing our thoughts; not on the image itself, but what it represents.
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Xavier:
I believe that you believe that you do not worship graven images. I do not think you are liars. I think you a sadly deceived.
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Christians do not worship graven images; never have and never will. You are sadly deceived by appearances and arrogant presumptions. What you perceive with your senses is not necessarily the truth of “what is”, anymore than the Pharisees could look at Jesus and recognize their God and Messiah. They only saw a man. So, in many instances appearances do not provide a complete picture of an activity. There is indeed an intangible quality to consider - that which motivates us. Generally, it’s best to ask people why they do/are doing something to find out what the motivation is; and not simply make assumptions based on observation. Misunderstandings can occur and misconceptions can cause friction.
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Xavier:
Statues, images are an obstacle in our journey to know God.
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I disagree, crosses, statues, and images help to orient and focus ones mind. They are not obstacles, but helps. Have you ever seen the movie the “Ten Commandments” (Charlton Heston)? Whenever I think of the Exodus, Passover and of course the Ten Commandments; I remember scenes from that movie. At that moment Scripture comes alive for me and I feel closer to God because of it. I feel the same way about the movie “Jesus of Nazareth”. Now I know the actor who played Jesus wasn’t Jesus, but the movie does give some reality to events, people, and times that are otherwise outside my personal experience.
 
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Madaglan:
Catholics do worship Mary and the saints. However, Catholics understand the word worship in its older definition, which more generally means showing reverence to someone.
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I disagree; that may have been true in the past, but even languages evolve (now there’s a dirty word). Words have meanings and to be understood means to use the right words to express a fact, thought, belief or to convey ideas. Words like “worship” and “adoration” should be used for God while “veneration” are more appropriate for the rest.
 
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Lorarose:
Ruth101 has voted to support Dave in this poll.
She has attempted to pass herself off as a catholic in other threads. 😦
At least Dave is open and honest about himself and his position.

Ruth! - being deceptive is never a good christian example!!
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Why does it say ‘suspended’ under Ruths name? has she been in trouble before?
A quote from St Therese of Lisieux: "Do not be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin Mary too much, for you can never love her too much. And Jesus will be very happy because the Blessed Virgin is his Mother.
And Dave, from wherever your hiding, dont forget to throw out any photos of your loved ones because just by looking at them you could be worshipping your mum, dad or your dog, or that picture on your mobile phone etc…
Worship: for God alone
Dulia; veneration of the saints
Hyperdulia: exalted veneration of the BVM
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Oh my, BIBLIOLATRY!!!
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My father-in-law skirts the line of Bibliolatry (very clever btw). He is under the belief that the bible, the King James version without the “added books” pre-dates the church.
 
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Genesis315:
I figure, if protestants say we venerate Mary at the same level they worship God, they’re the ones who need to step it up. If they only worship God as we venerate Mary, they are falling WAY short of the proper adoration God deserves.
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:amen: I think we should start out by buying them all dictionaries.
 
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CreosMary:
Why does it say ‘suspended’ under Ruths name? has she been in trouble before?
A quote from St Therese of Lisieux: "Do not be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin Mary too much, for you can never love her too much. And Jesus will be very happy because the Blessed Virgin is his Mother.
And Dave, from wherever your hiding, dont forget to throw out any photos of your loved ones because just by looking at them you could be worshipping your mum, dad or your dog, or that picture on your mobile phone etc…
Worship: for God alone
Dulia; veneration of the saints
Hyperdulia: exalted veneration of the BVM
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We need to keep to the topic and not get distracted as to why anyone has been suspended. It is enough to say that Ruth101 came here with an agenda, and in doing so she claimed to be a catholic but is in fact anti-Catholic.

So please let’s keep to the topic.

Oh and the worshippers of the KJV believe that the English translation dropped out of the sky:

“look up in the sky, is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it is the KJV being delivered by God.”

MaggieOH
 
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Wildgraywolf:
My father-in-law skirts the line of Bibliolatry (very clever btw). He is under the belief that the bible, the King James version without the “added books” pre-dates the church.
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If he belongs to:

The Baptists
The Fundamentalist Baptists
The various forms of Pentecostal,
Church of Christ
Church of the Nazarene
Hillsong
Assemblies of God

or any other of the thousands of variations then he might just be right. The KJV came before the existence of all of these denominations. However, the KJV, being an English translation of the manuscripts that make up Scripture, did not come before the beginning of the Church that was started by Jesus Christ. The canon of Scripture for both Old and New Testaments did not exist at that point.

MaggieOH
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Watchout,wildgraywolf, next xavier will accuse you of contributing to the idioltry of smiley post worship:eek:
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Hehehe… Just a lil bit-o deviltry there. Hey speaking of the devil how comes we don’t have any “devil” smilies?
 
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