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Xavier
Guest
You are the one that opened that door. Can you give a straight answer?Your just baiting–I’m not biting…If you have a real question–ask it! otherwise you’re just here to hassle–BYE!
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Church_Militant
Guest
Context is this. Graven images are forbidden.
There are a few exceptions.
Man reasons all are permissable.
Garden of Eden all trees are permissable, one is not. Man reasons and eats forbidden fruit.
Why is this so difficult?
**
why difficult?
Because of your clearly twisted interp that’s why…you sit here and try to defend an obviously unBiblical interp with your own biased UNCHRISTIAN (yeah that’s right, this is only a Moslem interp…so maybe you’d be happy to live with the Talliban in charge of your world.)
If Christian images are wrong then I guess the martyrs that are buried in the catacombs were idolators too since they put such images on the tombs of their dead,( and they had just given their lives for their faith in Our Lord.)
Begone ya heretic!
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Context is this. Graven images are forbidden.
There are a few exceptions.
Man reasons all are permissable.
Garden of Eden all trees are permissable, one is not. Man reasons and eats forbidden fruit.
Why is this so difficult?
No, creating graven images is not forbidden. Once again you are in error. Creating them as objects of worship is, and righly so. What’s so difficult?
I have no idea what you mean by “Man reasons are all permissible” and what do trees and fruit have to do with: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth?
You haven’t answered my questions…
- Why did God order the creation of those images?
- What purpose of His would you suppose they served?
- Should we destroy every and all crosses because they weren’t created by God’s command?
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Church Militant:
You’ve gone and done it now,you have not only insulted the majority of Catholic posters,you’ve caused Church millitant to bust out"the icon"! Quit while you can,or truth will slam you via Church Millitantwhy difficult?
Because of your clearly twisted interp that’s why…you sit here and try to defend an obviously unBiblical interp with your own biased UNCHRISTIAN (yeah that’s right, this is only a Moslem interp…so maybe you’d be happy to live with the Talliban in charge of your world.)
If Christian images are wrong then I guess the martyrs that are buried in the catacombs were idolators too since they put such images on the tombs of their dead,( and they had just given their lives for their faith in Our Lord.)
Begone ya heretic!
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
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Xavier
Guest
Not a bad paraphrase, but not quite on target.
You are not permitted to make and worship (bow down to. put ahead of Me) gods of your own making.
Catholic- We do not worship statues.
we do not worship the saints, we do not hold statues, the saints, Mary ahead of God.
NonCatholic- I understand you dont believe that is what you are doing, however even though you dont believe that is what your doing. That is what your doing.
Catholic-Who are you to tell me Im wrong.
NonCatholic- Scripture tells you you are wrong.
Catholic- That is only your interpretation of scripture, Besides I have tradition and the Pope who agrees with me.
NonCatholic- What are the Pope and tradition compared to Gods word.
Catholic- Tradition and pope are from scripture.
NonCatholic–Now your really out of your mind.
Catholic-- This is a Catholic board you have been banned for insulting me.
NonCatholic - I didnt insult you. But Jesus never made Peter pope.
Catholic-- Sure he did. He said I will build my Church on you Peter.
NonCatholic–First off the Church of Christ is built on Jesus second he wasnt even talking about a institution but an assembly of people.
Catholic–You have it all wrong cant you read the bible.
NonCatholic-- Thats what Ive been trying to tell you all along.
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Philomena
Guest
oh! good one, ppcpilot!! I teach a middle school apologetics class and I NEVER thought of THESE examples! I thank you and my students thank you!:tiphat:
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
You can not worship something without knowing it!
That is an assinine assertion
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Philomena
Guest
You know, I walked into a protestant church and saw people with their hands raised, and some kneeling before a man…frankly, it looked like they were worshipping him. Or maybe they were worshipping the worship band on the stage…couldn’t tell…
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
REAL scenario between me and a Christian friend:
Catholic: We do not worship statues.
we do not worship the saints, we do not hold statues, the saints, Mary ahead of God.
NonCatholic: So what are you doing?
Catholic: Just like you do when you look at a picture of your child, who’s currently away at camp, or at a picture of your grandparents, who have died, we think of a statue or picture of Mary or the saints as a reminder, a memento, of a loved one. Mary and the saints are in heaven, like your grandparents, but as members of the communion of saints, living in heaven, members of Christ’s body who have gone before us and are experiencing life eternal in Christ, they are as much “alive” to us as is your child at camp. You can’t see your child, but you know where she or he is, and you love him. You can’t your grandparents in heaven now, but you love them. Your child will return and be with you here on earth; one day you, and your child, will die and be with your grandparents and with God in heaven.
Non-Catholic: And the prayers?
Catholic: Prayer is talking to someone. I can “pray” you to think of me and pray for me to God. You can “pray” your child to think of you and pray for you to God. And we can also “pray” our friends who have died to pray for us to God. What matters is that the prayer is ultimately to God. And remember that as James said, the prayers of the righteous are good. Who is more righteous than a saint in heaven? Part of the body of Christ?
Non-Catholic: So, you don’t ask Mary and the saints for things?
Catholic: No, we don’t. Mary and the saints are good people, but they’re people, they aren’t gods. They don’t have “superpowers” the way we think of. They don’t grant wishes. They don’t do anything in and of themselves alone. They are alive in Christ and their life consists in glorifying and praising God. So their “prayers” on our behalf would be part of their glorifying and praising God.
No Catholic prayer ever asks Mary, or a saint, to do anything but to pray for them. Catholic prayers to God, and God alone, ask Him to “save us”, “have mercy on us”, “heal us”, “forgive us”, etc. Only God alone is worshipped by us. But part of that worship involves honoring those whom God Himself loves and honors.
Picture yourself going to a big party in honor of, let’s say, Billy Graham. Now, picture yourself telling Billy Graham that you really enjoy his words, but you think his mother is a reprobate sinner. Or that his beloved friends and coworkers are just heaps of dung. Just how honored do you think Billy would feel after listening to you dump on the people he loved and honored himself??
Non-Catholic: But Billy is just human.
Catholic: Jesus is human too. If Billy should honor his mother and father, shouldn’t Jesus do the same? We aren’t trying to take away Jesus’ divinity by honoring Mary; in fact, the more we honor Mary the more we honor Jesus Himself. The only reason to honor Mary is for the fiat she gave, that she accepted the will of God and bore the Saviour of the world, and was his mother here on earth.
Not honoring her for the role God Himself created for and gave to her is kind of like telling God that you don’t think He should have created Mary. Since when do creatures tell their creator how to do things, or tell him that they’ll “judge for themselves” how much honor and glory they will deign to give him, or will only honor him for one thing, but not another?
Non-Catholic: So you’re saying that honoring Mary is for the purpose of honoring and worshipping God alone? To give Him even more glory?
Catholic: Bingo! (But that’s another topic. . .
)
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geezerbob
Guest
Good post, Tantum. I doubt that Xavier will read it, though. He is convinced that we worship graven images and nothing is going to change his mind. He is also convinced that his interpretation of scripture is more valid than ours or the Church’s but I have yet to hear him say by what authority this is so.
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Interesting twist… I can appreciate that… You are none-the-less proceeding from false assumptions ending in erroneous conclusions. Your thinking is flawed. You are more interested in mere appearances and in keeping with the letter of the law; than in keeping with “in spirit and in truth”. How is it that your “knowing” takes precedent over our explanations of why? Perhaps you think yourself a mind reader? Have you some ability to know the sincerity of a person’s heart? Do you know what motivates people and why? If not; then you have no reason not to accept what has been said on this topic.
We have all answered your “concerns” honestly and in good spirit, why then do you persist in believing in untruths and in further perpetrating lies?
Why haven’t you answered any of my previous questions? By not responding you demonstrate a lack of sincerity and credibility.
Why should I take you seriously? And what witness do you present to me by silence and/or evasion?
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st_felicity
Guest
Yes.
Now my turn. Can you accept a straight answer?
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Tantum ergo:
Wow, that was awesome… :bowdown:
REAL scenario between me and a Christian friend:
Catholic: We do not worship statues.
we do not worship the saints, we do not hold statues, the saints, Mary ahead of God.
NonCatholic: So what are you doing?
Catholic: Just like you do when you look at a picture of your child, who’s currently away at camp, or at a picture of your grandparents, who have died, we think of a statue or picture of Mary or the saints as a reminder, a memento, of a loved one. Mary and the saints are in heaven, like your grandparents, but as members of the communion of saints, living in heaven, members of Christ’s body who have gone before us and are experiencing life eternal in Christ, they are as much “alive” to us as is your child at camp. You can’t see your child, but you know where she or he is, and you love him. You can’t your grandparents in heaven now, but you love them. Your child will return and be with you here on earth; one day you, and your child, will die and be with your grandparents and with God in heaven.
Non-Catholic: And the prayers?
Catholic: Prayer is talking to someone. I can “pray” you to think of me and pray for me to God. You can “pray” your child to think of you and pray for you to God. And we can also “pray” our friends who have died to pray for us to God. What matters is that the prayer is ultimately to God. And remember that as James said, the prayers of the righteous are good. Who is more righteous than a saint in heaven? Part of the body of Christ?
Non-Catholic: So, you don’t ask Mary and the saints for things?
Catholic: No, we don’t. Mary and the saints are good people, but they’re people, they aren’t gods. They don’t have “superpowers” the way we think of. They don’t grant wishes. They don’t do anything in and of themselves alone. They are alive in Christ and their life consists in glorifying and praising God. So their “prayers” on our behalf would be part of their glorifying and praising God.
No Catholic prayer ever asks Mary, or a saint, to do anything but to pray for them. Catholic prayers to God, and God alone, ask Him to “save us”, “have mercy on us”, “heal us”, “forgive us”, etc. Only God alone is worshipped by us. But part of that worship involves honoring those whom God Himself loves and honors.
Picture yourself going to a big party in honor of, let’s say, Billy Graham. Now, picture yourself telling Billy Graham that you really enjoy his words, but you think his mother is a reprobate sinner. Or that his beloved friends and coworkers are just heaps of dung. Just how honored do you think Billy would feel after listening to you dump on the people he loved and honored himself??
Non-Catholic: But Billy is just human.
Catholic: Jesus is human too. If Billy should honor his mother and father, shouldn’t Jesus do the same? We aren’t trying to take away Jesus’ divinity by honoring Mary; in fact, the more we honor Mary the more we honor Jesus Himself. The only reason to honor Mary is for the fiat she gave, that she accepted the will of God and bore the Saviour of the world, and was his mother here on earth.
Not honoring her for the role God Himself created for and gave to her is kind of like telling God that you don’t think He should have created Mary. Since when do creatures tell their creator how to do things, or tell him that they’ll “judge for themselves” how much honor and glory they will deign to give him, or will only honor him for one thing, but not another?
Non-Catholic: So you’re saying that honoring Mary is for the purpose of honoring and worshipping God alone? To give Him even more glory?
Catholic: Bingo! (But that’s another topic. . .
Wow, that was awesome… :bowdown:
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
WAIT! He needs to answer my questions too! It’ll prolly be a cold day in hell before that happens…
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st_felicity
Guest
Reverse that. Scripture was born from “The First Church’s” Tradition.
Q: What is the First Church?
A1: To a Catholic (and technically any PROTESTant): The Catholic Church
A2:To a (anti-Catholic) Protestant: Something NOT the Catholic Church.
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st_felicity
Guest
ooooOOOooo! Good answer!
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MariaG
Guest
So does anyone who agrees that there is no difference between molded or carved objects wear a cross? Or butterfly necklaces? Or a fish?
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them?
Any answers? It is a straightforward question.
God Bless,
Maria
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them?
Any answers? It is a straightforward question.
God Bless,
Maria
M
MariaG
Guest
So does any Christian who agrees that there is no difference between molded or carved objects wear a cross? Or butterfly necklaces? Or a fish?
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them?
Any answers? It is a straightforward question.
God Bless,
Maria
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them?
Any answers? It is a straightforward question.
God Bless,
Maria
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Wildgraywolf said:
Watchout,wildgraywolf, next xavier will accuse you of contributing to the idioltry of smiley post worship
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mommy
Guest
Watchout,wildgraywolf, next xavier will accuse you of contributing to the idioltry of smiley post worship
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