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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
No, because they are not worshipped as gods. Would you be in favor of destroying all of the pictures you have in your possession of deceased relatives?
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st_felicity
Guest
Matthew 16:17 "Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah…And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”
This is just dumb.
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Xavier
Guest
Geeeeeeeeeeeeesh I wasnt serious.
As if molded images are different than carved images.
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Xavier
Guest
Is this off topic?
Thou art Peter and upont this rock (Christ the Living God) I will build my congregation (assembly) and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Well since you cling to a literal interpretation of scripture, yes, it does make a difference.
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reggie
Guest
How many people visit the graves of their deceased relatives and friends? When you are there, do you pray? Do you sit and talk to that person as if they are there? Do you bring flowers to adorn that sight as a way of remembrance? Are the headstones carved with their name, images or possibly some message you want to be known about them?
There is a huge, immeasurable difference between the golden calf created by the Jews in the desert and the statues, pictures and holy cards of the Catholic faith. The golden calf was made because Moses had been gone up on the mountain for so long. They were hungry, lost and afraid. Here’s the key—They no longer trusted God to deliver them. They created an idol in the vain hope that it would. They knew the true God and still turned to their created God as a way of hedging their bets. And that image was not a representation of a god, it was the god.
Now once again, the images in Catholic church are not there because we don’t trust, honor, glorify and worship God. The veneration of Mary and the saints is another way we give glory to Him. We know that these holy people and their lives are gifts to us. They are our brothers and sisters and God was pleased to use them to bring us closer to Him. Asking Mary and the saints to intercede for us is a little like when you are a kid and you send the “favorite” sibling to ask your parents for something. God hears the prayers of the righteous and who are more so than the saints already glorified by Him in heaven?
I know that people like Xavier and outdave will not be convinced by any words I might use here, but for all of you Catholics who come here seeking answers to doubts that people like them have created, I hope you see the truth as told to you by the many wonderfully informed and devoted Catholics on this forum.
There is a huge, immeasurable difference between the golden calf created by the Jews in the desert and the statues, pictures and holy cards of the Catholic faith. The golden calf was made because Moses had been gone up on the mountain for so long. They were hungry, lost and afraid. Here’s the key—They no longer trusted God to deliver them. They created an idol in the vain hope that it would. They knew the true God and still turned to their created God as a way of hedging their bets. And that image was not a representation of a god, it was the god.
Now once again, the images in Catholic church are not there because we don’t trust, honor, glorify and worship God. The veneration of Mary and the saints is another way we give glory to Him. We know that these holy people and their lives are gifts to us. They are our brothers and sisters and God was pleased to use them to bring us closer to Him. Asking Mary and the saints to intercede for us is a little like when you are a kid and you send the “favorite” sibling to ask your parents for something. God hears the prayers of the righteous and who are more so than the saints already glorified by Him in heaven?
I know that people like Xavier and outdave will not be convinced by any words I might use here, but for all of you Catholics who come here seeking answers to doubts that people like them have created, I hope you see the truth as told to you by the many wonderfully informed and devoted Catholics on this forum.
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dennisknapp
Guest
Does he not bare an image? And you worship him? God took to himself an image.
Peace
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Paris_Blues
Guest
Hmmmmm…interesting…worshipping statues?
I’ve seen this on EWTN which kinda bothers me in a way (not that I’m anti-Catholic or anything; why would I if I’m in RCIA?) but that’s because it’s probably my own dang ignorance of it.
How can you Catholics get a new convert to understand why you do what you do? I mean, I hope this is optional, to stand in front of a statue…if I had a choice, why not just pray to them without a statue in front of you?
I’ve seen this on EWTN which kinda bothers me in a way (not that I’m anti-Catholic or anything; why would I if I’m in RCIA?) but that’s because it’s probably my own dang ignorance of it.
How can you Catholics get a new convert to understand why you do what you do? I mean, I hope this is optional, to stand in front of a statue…if I had a choice, why not just pray to them without a statue in front of you?
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st_felicity
Guest
Yeah…it’s off topic…but you translate literally in some places and then throw in your interpretions elsewhere…I’m just lookin’ for some consitency
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Genesis315
Guest
Paris Blues:
First off, NO ONE WORSHIPS STATUES!!! As for praying in front of one, it’s totally optional. Think of statues and pictures like prayer aides. They help most people stay focused. I like to look at the big crucifix before Mass as I pray. It helps me focus on why I’m there!Hmmmmm…interesting…worshipping statues?
I’ve seen this on EWTN which kinda bothers me in a way (not that I’m anti-Catholic or anything; why would I if I’m in RCIA?) but that’s because it’s probably my own dang ignorance of it.
How can you Catholics get a new convert to understand why you do what you do? I mean, I hope this is optional, to stand in front of a statue…if I had a choice, why not just pray to them without a statue in front of you?
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mtr01
Guest
Paris Blues:
But again, no, praying by a statue is not a requirement of Catholics. In fact, you aren’t required to pray to/with any of the Saints, including Our Lady. I’m not sure why anyone would not want to, but you don’t have to.
You certainly do not have to pray in front of a statue if you do not want to. It is just an aid, a way of bringing to mind who you are praying to, or asking to pray for you. It’s done for the same reason you might have a box of old photos, and pull it out from time to time to look at them at bring to mind certain memories. Now, you certainly don’t ever have to look at pictures, but don’t they tend to help?Hmmmmm…interesting…worshipping statues?
I’ve seen this on EWTN which kinda bothers me in a way (not that I’m anti-Catholic or anything; why would I if I’m in RCIA?) but that’s because it’s probably my own dang ignorance of it.
How can you Catholics get a new convert to understand why you do what you do? I mean, I hope this is optional, to stand in front of a statue…if I had a choice, why not just pray to them without a statue in front of you?
But again, no, praying by a statue is not a requirement of Catholics. In fact, you aren’t required to pray to/with any of the Saints, including Our Lady. I’m not sure why anyone would not want to, but you don’t have to.
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Paris_Blues
Guest
Well, that’s good that you don’t have to stand in front of a statue. So I don’t have a problem with that now that I have been informed. Sure, I’ll look at a picture or a statue to remind me than later will go and pray.
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PeterC
Guest
Somewhere along the line I was taught to bring my prayers to Mary and she will lay them at the feet of Jesus for me. I wrote a prayer that I pray as the first prayer of each day.
You know …. I’ll bet that a lot of us “just plain folk” who are not biblical scholars and are not in constant study of the church read the threads here to sort of just “check-in” to look for Catholic Answers. I must admit … I got a little nervous today as I went through this thread. Think of the awesome responsibility those “learned” individuals have who post on this forum.
Do you think your discussions might ever alter the faith of an individual reading them? I guess if they do, perhaps the faith of the individual just influenced by the discussion was not as strong as the person might have thought it was. So … I will remain faithful.
Now, after reading this thread I would like an opinion of (not the prayer) but of the practice of this prayer as the prayer leading all of my prayers of the day.
You know …. I’ll bet that a lot of us “just plain folk” who are not biblical scholars and are not in constant study of the church read the threads here to sort of just “check-in” to look for Catholic Answers. I must admit … I got a little nervous today as I went through this thread. Think of the awesome responsibility those “learned” individuals have who post on this forum.
Do you think your discussions might ever alter the faith of an individual reading them? I guess if they do, perhaps the faith of the individual just influenced by the discussion was not as strong as the person might have thought it was. So … I will remain faithful.
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MariaG
Guest
I find it interesting that xavier does not see the difference between a molded object and carved.
So does anyone who agrees that there is no difference between molded or carved objects not wear a cross? Or butterfly necklaces? Or a fish?
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them? How can you wear them and not pass over into worship of the cross, the object?
And just an fyi. I do know a fundamental Christian who does not have any images (pictures, photographs anything) in her house because she says that breaks the commandment against graven images.
Do you have images of anything in your house? How is this not breaking the commandment agaisnt graven images but Catholic Christians break it with statues? Why is the fundamental Christian wrong in her interpretation and you are right if you disagree?
God Bless,
Maria
So does anyone who agrees that there is no difference between molded or carved objects not wear a cross? Or butterfly necklaces? Or a fish?
If you do wear those objects, why do you wear them? How can you wear them and not pass over into worship of the cross, the object?
And just an fyi. I do know a fundamental Christian who does not have any images (pictures, photographs anything) in her house because she says that breaks the commandment against graven images.
Do you have images of anything in your house? How is this not breaking the commandment agaisnt graven images but Catholic Christians break it with statues? Why is the fundamental Christian wrong in her interpretation and you are right if you disagree?
God Bless,
Maria
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Xavier
Guest
So are you saying Jesus didnt establish a Church?Yeah…it’s off topic…but you translate literally in some places and then throw in your interpretions elsewhere…I’m just lookin’ for some consitency
Or are you saying Jesus is not the rock in which His Church is built on?
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Xavier said:
Wow… All good verses and I agree with them when taken in the proper context. Perhaps you are simply clueless as to what the word “context” means; let see if our friend Merriam-Webster can help us out…
*Main Entry: con·text *
Pronunciation: 'kän-"tekst
Function: noun
1:* the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning.*
2: the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs.
**
Given this definition and applying it to those verses you cited; all relate to the creation, worship and adoration of graven images. Correct? And as you rightfully point out God doesn’t like them; neither do I and neither do any other Christians. You have misapplied context, not surprising given your apparent narrow, un-thoughtfull, and legalistic views.
Well, now we know that God doesn’t like people worshiping graven images a.k.a. idols, but let’s look at those times when God has ordered their creation. Perhaps you will **show context **for the following or better yet explain why God ordered them to be created and what purpose could their creation could possible serve? Who would God curse in these instances?
“[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).
“The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole” (Num. 21:8-9).
“He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).
“[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east” (1 Kgs. 7:25)**.
“And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about” (1 Kgs. 7:36).
You **must **be aware of these verses (they’ve been posted all over the place) and yet folks like yourself choose to cling to such willful stupidity.You judge wrongly, unjustly, and unrighteously. Your conclusions are based solely on appearances for appearances sake, without considering the “why”, and the “whys” have been explained at great length in previous posts. What can you possibly not understand? How can you not possibly understand what’s been said here? A wise man loves correction, but the senseless one heeds no rebuke. (Prov 13:1). Well, you’ve been corrected and rebuked.
Here’s some further helpful links to help you along, but I’m certain understanding is not a goal for you.
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=20339
newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Perhaps you should read your bible… Idols were created and worshiped (to varying degrees) as those gods. That’s God’s whole point of the first Commanment. Allow me to paraphrase: You are not permitted to create and worship your own gods. I Am the One True God - there is no other.
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st_felicity
Guest
Your just baiting–I’m not biting…If you have a real question–ask it! otherwise you’re just here to hassle–BYE!So are you saying Jesus didnt establish a Church?
Or are you saying Jesus is not the rock in which His Church is built on?
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Church_Militant
Guest
MariaG.
I wonder how she’d feel if she knew that the whole iconoclastic heresy was the result of Moslem influences in the 800’s?
sigh Miserere nobis.
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Xavier
Guest
Context is this. Graven images are forbidden.
There are a few exceptions.
Man reasons all are permissable.
Garden of Eden all trees are permissable, one is not. Man reasons and eats forbidden fruit.
Why is this so difficult?
**
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