Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

  • Thread starter Thread starter Church_Militant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ok, if that is the case, then can I not just request [pray for] something of Baal? Also, I would just say that I am not treating Baal as a god, I am just asking for his help and intercession to the one true God. Would that be alright then?
Click to expand...
It would be fine if Baal was a member of the Church Triumphant (or Church Militant for that matter). But Baal is not; he doesn’t exist. So it is not fine.

**
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Click to expand...
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. **

Let’s remember this is the Old Testament. When people died here they did not go into the presence of God. They were in Sheol. Jesus had not yet paid the price for their sins. Therefore, since they were separated from God, their prayers would be useless. Likewise, since they were separated, ungodly magic was needed to reach them. This is why it was so bad. These things would be leaving God out of the picture entirely. We believe that the Church Militant (on earth), Church Suffering (being purged), and Church Triumphant (in Heaven) make up the one true Church and we are all in communion with one another, no one is separated. When we pray to the saints now, we know they will pray for us and with us to God, and this is good because “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). No one is more righteous than those in Heaven.

Oops, sorry Martin Luther, I forgot how much you hated the book of James. My bad.
 
I would disagree with the premise. Our actions show what is in our heart. Hence, if we bow down to something within the context of a religious practice, it shows the idolatry in our heart.
Click to expand...
And here I thought only God could judge what was truly in our heart. I guess Martin Luther can too. Maybe that church named after him is the one true church after all. Then again, maybe it’s not.
 
Hello Everyone!

Thanks for the replies.
We acknowledge this, but we are not calling on the dead for advice. Asking for prayers is not the same. It is only through GOD that such contact with saints is possible.
Click to expand...
First of all, you have misunderstood the Hebrew term daraš which means "To request, entreaty. In fact, one of the most scholarly lexicons of the Hebrew language, Kohler-Baumgartner’s Hebrew-Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament states that prayer is the meaning to be applied to this passage. That is the way most lexicons are. The meaning “to ask for advice” is not a meaning that any lexicon will give you. This passage is so clear. If you consult the dead for intercession, you are in violation of this passage.
While I read this often, I find that many seem to ignore her except at Christmas.
Click to expand...
I agree.
This is commmplete nonsense, since Baal is a false god, you do not even venerate him.
Click to expand...
Why not? You may disagree, but that is the final conclusion of your logic. You can venerate anything as long as you only give worship to the one true God.
It would be fine if Baal was a member of the Church Triumphant (or Church Militant for that matter). But Baal is not; he doesn’t exist. So it is not fine.
Click to expand...
Again, why? My point was not that it was right, but that if you accept your logic about the latria/dulia distinction, you are forced into contradicting this very statement if you use the idea that “I am not just praying to statues, but to the person they represent, and it is not worship, it is only veneration.” When someone uses that logic they are forced by the very reasoning just put forward to reject the statement you just made. You have just proven my point.
Let’s remember this is the Old Testament. When people died here they did not go into the presence of God. They were in Sheol. Jesus had not yet paid the price for their sins. Therefore, since they were separated from God, their prayers would be useless. Likewise, since they were separated, ungodly magic was needed to reach them…
Click to expand...
Genesis3:15 the only think I want to point out is that you are changing the topic. On post #324, you stated that:
Mary and the Saints are not dead. There’s that whole thing about everlasting life…
Click to expand...
Now you are changing your argument and saying that because the saints did not hear the prayers because they were in sheol. The problem with that argument is the context of Deuteronomy 18. The Lord is laying down laws to the Israelites not to practice the abominations of the land [v.9,12]. In fact, the Bible says that God drove out the other nations because of this. The whole reason given in this passage for not doing it is because it was part of the rituals of the civilizations along with devination, witchcraft, sorcery, etc. Hence, the reason for not doing it is given right there in the passage, and it isn’t because the saints aren’t in heaven, it is because it is a detestible practice unto the Lord.
And here I thought only God could judge what was truly in our heart. I guess Martin Luther can too. Maybe that church named after him is the one true church after all. Then again, maybe it’s not.
Click to expand...
The penalty for Idolatry in the Old Testament was death. How could the elders of the city have known that idolatry was commited if they could not tell what was or was not idolatry? How could they tell if they couldn’t see their hearts? The reality is that God has forbade us to contact the dead. Hence, when we see someone doing that, we know that they have crossed the line.

God Bless,
Martin Luther
 
Martin Luther: 😛
I would just like to point out that you seem to have misread or added your own personal interp to the graven image command in the first commandment. Here for your clarification and edification is that text from one of the very first posts on this thread.

Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

Pax vobiscum,
 
WildGrayWolf,

Just wanted to thank you for your help with my question.
Sorry it took so long, I’ve been away from the computer for nearly a week. How is it that so many of you have so much time for this?

reggie
 
First of all we must always use bible verses in context. Many verses seem to say something completly different when taken away from their surronding passages. The verse that was quoted from Deuteronomy is talking about witch craft. At the time the surronding people were doing things like sacrificing their children by burning them alive to a god named Molech(I think that was the name) They were also practicing what we would consider the occult. No catholic, that I know of, ask their dead relatives to come for a visit. That is what bringing up the dead means. It isn’t the simply asking a saint for intercession, calling up the dead is a way to use your own power-without the aid of God-to manipulate events. It is the exact opposite of humbly asking for help.

Please read 1 Sammuel 28:5-25. The medium that Saul uses does nothing that at all resembles the Catholic practice. I am not certain how you see a connection.

deb
 
Martin Luther:
Most Hebrew scholars will agree with me
Click to expand...
The light allows the eye to distinguish, for example, gold from silver, copper from iron and tin. Moreover, it allows us to note the difference between colours and shapes, between the plants and between the animals. But only for those who have sound eyesight. The blind gain no advantage from the rays of the sun: they do not even see the brightness of the light!
There are people who do not want to open their eyes to the light of truth but are quite happy to live in darkness. They are like the blind. They are like the birds that fly by night and take their name from it, night-jars, or like bats.
It would be stupid to be angry with these animals. Nature has assigned them that destiny. But human beings who purposely choose the mirky gloom, what reason can they give to justify themselves?
What prevents them removing the mist from their eyes is arrogance. They fancy they know the truth better than others because they have studied a lot. But they are like fish in the sea: they live in salt water, but nevertheless, once they have been caught they still need to be salted.
Theodoret (393-457ad)
 
It is a hard fact of history that devotion to Mary has been a fundamental part of the historic Faith for 20 centuries. The Sub Tuum prayer dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries establishes this to be the case along with numerous other pieces of evidence. Any criticism of Marian devotion must overcome this “hard fact”. Also Marian devotion has always been directly related to the centrality of Christ and has been the surest protector of sound Christology. Marian devotion stems from the surest sources: the witness of Scripture; the inerrant interpretation of Scripture handed down by Councils, Creeds and the Fathers; the universal and ancient practice among Christians of venerating Mary and seeking her intercession in line with scriptural teaching; the Marian experience of the faithful; and the appearances of Mary throughout history in the most diverse cultures that have resulted in mass conversions and the renewal of Christian life.

Sub Tuum

**We fly to your protection O holy Mother of God, despise not our petitions in our necessities but deliver us from all dangers, ever glorious and blessed Virgin. **
 
Hi Dave!

Quite frankly, if any catholic went into a church and told a priest that they worshipped the statue of Mary, they’d be excommunicated! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif
Statues are representations of actual people, saints in particular. Mary is chief among the saints. Prayers to saints are pryers of intercession. According to the Catholic Catachism:

**2132 **The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71 vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#IV

Please, Dave, it is important to get this right.
 
40.png
Scott_Lafrance:
Listen to the Christ’s Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Nu 21:8-9 - Show Context “And the LORD said to Moses, 'Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live**.**”
Click to expand...
You have quoted what is known as the Prefiguration of the Crucifixion. Notice how God took an implement of pain and death and changed it into an active and living symbol of salvation. (Read the whole story (Numbers 21:4-9)

TheCatholic Church sees this as a prophetic event concerning Christ’s crucifixion.

Jesus says “You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.” (Jn 5:39).

How does this passage testify to Jesus? See John 3:1-21

Here are Jn 3:14 & 15. Is Jesus actually instructing us to construct images of Him on the cross (the crucifix)? It would seem so. To do so would be to take an istrument of pain and death and make it a symbol of salvation, just like the bronze serpent.

“14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

The truth is that God used physical objects to get things done. He told Moses to strike the rock. He told him to construct the Ark of the Covenant where he would rule:

Ex 25:10-22

“18 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, 19 fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. 20 The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. 21 This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you. 22 There I will meet you and there, from above the propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the ark of the commandments, I will tell you all the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites.”
Read all of chap. 25 to see how God commanded Moses to construct His temple. It was FULL of statues (including two golden cows), gold, plants, great tapestries, lamps, etc.

Get the picture? God wants us not to WORSHIP images. They are for reminding us of His power and grace, for reminding us of the saints that went before us. In the Orthodox Church, the icons are actual living presences.
 
When we pray the Hail Mary, we ask Mary to pray for us. If we worshiped her, we wouldn’t need to pray for us, but since we do need her prayers, we ask for them. Not worship!
 
Church Militant:
PJ,
You might better re-read my posts and then maybe offer some semblance of am apology…you went off half-cocked. You’d be wise to be more like your name-sake.
Pax vobiscum,
Click to expand...
Dear Church Militant;

I am terribly sorry that your name got stuck in there somehow. Not intented, never meant, not in a million years. My computer incompetance has brought dishonour and shame upon my house. May you blessed, and all you posts graced with the odour of sanity.
PJ

PS And I don’t think you smell.
 
40.png
memberofthebody:
michaelp,

"And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

I spent over twenty years as a Roman Catholic and was myself accused of being a ‘statue worshipper’. I, EXACTLY like the Catholics on this forum, vehemently denied it in spite of the fact that when passing a life-sized image of the virgin Mary in church, I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No. everyone did it. There was one thing however, I refused to do that most of the congregation did without hesitation. They would bend and kiss the feet on the image of Mary. As a result, the feet of this image were virtually indistingishable as feet. Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing!

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her *Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed * (1 Corinthians 12:13).

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

In regards to Mary, we must take into consideration what we know about men (or women) who have passed into eternity. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Matthew 16:20 tell it clearly. The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints."

Well, communicate does not necessarily mean converse, but to join in charity As in communion of the saints, and while we do not believe in a hierarchy of divine beings, we do believe in a hierarchy of the blessed. But Our Lady is more than just St. Mary. She is the Mother of God, our physical link with the Son. She is our guarantee that Jesus is not only the 2nd Person of the Triune God but one of us. She is in a sense the mother of us all, the new Eve. Protestants tend to treat her more or less like Sarah or,better, like St. Elizabeth, the mother of the Baptist. This is why modern Protestants–but not the Reformers–deny her perpetual virginity. But she plays a far larger role even in Scripture than any other woman, even the Magdelen, the poster girl of the feminists. And St. Ignatius, a generation after Luke, makes it clear that the Incarnation and her virginity are intimately related . And this was about the year 100.
So should we bend the knee to her? I say yes, I do not doubt that the Magi did the same, recognizing her as royalty even if you no longer do.
Click to expand...
 
Prester John:
Dear Church Militant;

I am terribly sorry that your name got stuck in there somehow. Not intented, never meant, not in a million years. My computer incompetance has brought dishonour and shame upon my house. May you blessed, and all you posts graced with the odour of sanity.
PJ

PS And I don’t think you smell.
Click to expand...
No Prob…just couldn’t figure out how I got hit w/that. 👍
Have a good one! :irish1:
 
Church Militant:
No Prob…just couldn’t figure out how I got hit w/that. 👍
Have a good one! :irish1:
Click to expand...
I am a computer idiot. That is how. Somehow after following your arguments when I went to reply, your name got stuck in there. I am now going to have all strings that you are on checked and proofread by my good friend and 12 year old nephew, Alex. This WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN!!! Not EVER.
And in closing, as my father is so fond of quoting this when I screw up up, I concede :

" that the happiest man in theworld, is the village idiot"…
Respectfully, your familiar posting idiot,
Respectfully, John, Prester
 
AND IT ALL COMES DOWN THIS: “Do Protestants ACCEPT JESUS as,”the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, AT HAND, (available and approachable now?)

…If so, then what is the ,”KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, at hand,” JESUS & the WHOLE COMPANY OF HEAVEN, Angels, Saints, Powers, and all…

MT 8:9 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it."

MK 12:34 And when Jesus saw that (he) answered with understanding, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to ask him any more questions.

LK 7:8 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it."

MT 13:11 He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.

MT 13:24 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

MT 13:31 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a person took and sowed in a field.

MT 13:33 He spoke to them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed with three measures of wheat flour until the whole batch was leavened.”

MT 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure buried in a field, which a person finds and hides again, and out of joy goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

MT 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant searching for fine pearls.

MT 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea, which collects fish of every kind.

MT 13:52 And he replied, “Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old.”

MT 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

MT 18:23 That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.

MT 20:1 "The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard.

MT 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.

:eek:
 
King David, Solomon, the whole kitten caboodle of other 42 kings up until Mary, mean NOTHING without the MERGING of the HOLY Spirit into HUMAN JEWISH FLESH in MARY… Mary the 1st Human Being acceptable, and HUMBLE enough for the GRACE OF GOD, (Spirit), to TOUCH… The ,“LOVER,” SOLOMON prophesized about in his WISDOM, just like David Prophesized about the ,“SUFFERING of JESUS,” his Great, Great, Grandson…

Without Mary, Jewish singularity means nothing. God took a people and purified and humbled them to produce Mary, acceptable, and humble, the handmaiden of the Lord… The Law means Nothing as well, if NO one ever keeps it… Therefore to SEE one keep the Law, differentiates GOOD AND BAD, which existed NOT before the LAW, (see the writings of Saint Paul in Heaven)… Gengis Khan and his lot ate human flesh and married their own flesh and blood. So did many of the Roman Emperors, and Roman Citizens…

When you call someone a ,“SINNER,” you must have a reference, a GAUGE to define SIN… Jesus acknowledges that there exists ,“LEVELS in HEAVEN and on Earth,” and some will have greater rewards in Heaven, adminstration on Earth, according to one’s talents and perforance… And only a fool is CONTEMPTUEOUS and DIS-RESPECTFUL of HIS or HER betters here ON EARTH, and IN HEAVEN…

What if Mary had said to the ,“ANGEL,” it’s about time I GOT RECOGNIZED, in the lack of all humility?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top