Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[Rau]

Maybe I am misunderstanding but I have seen this stated a few times in this thread by Catholics. Usually said like ‘it’s between me and God.’ As if Jesus and His Church are separate. You are aware that the teachings of the Church are the teachings of Jesus?

That the Church’s Teachings are congruent with, indeed ARE the truth as held by God is not always an easy thing to accept. But it is true that Jesus gave a special capacity and authority to the Church. Christ stated exactly that to St Peter.

Often we see appeal to conscience being used to excuse errant actions, but conscience ought to be tied unbreakably to Church teaching. When one’s desire for something, like a child, is so strong and so emotional, it is not hard to see how one can become convinced that it (eg. IVF) will be OK with God too. Just how God will deal with the issue in the end, only he knows.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

A child. Not a commodity to be created in a lab and extras given away.

If you’re real and not a troll, think of how those lab made and given away children will feel when they learn of their creation.

Yes, adoption is wonderful and generous, but it does not make up for being unwanted by you.

Those “lab made and created commodities” will go through no more or no less trauma than a child who is naturally conceived and placed for adoption.

 

[Rau]

So then would it be immoral for a woman to place an unplanned child she was not prepared (financially, emotionally, or for any other reason) for adoption?
…

It is pretty unusual for a woman in a multiple births situation to nominate a proportion of her babies for adoption. Perhaps it is conceivable that parents might be unable to manage and to take that route, eg. Single mothers or severe financial hardship cases, etc. Is that how you see your potential situation ? How many embryos will be produced by the IVF procedure?

The issue I see is that you seem to be making the decision to get pregnant AND to not accept children beyond 1 or 2, all in advance! When one is using NFP to avoid/ defer, the decisions are taken 1 month at a time. You are saying “now” (if I’ve followed accurately) you will set out to have one or two children, and should there be more that I could bring up, I will refuse and instead “adopt them out”.

 

[Pax2u]

Golly, it must be nice up on high on your big white horse looking down upon your lessers little miss Paladin.

Did you forget your Judge’s hammer for the kangaroo court here today?

Viewer, you are out of line.

 

[Rau]

While I am in agreement on the matter this is the same institution that took until 1965 to outlaw slavery, so unless you suggest our saviour approved of it for almost 2000 years then took a u-turn…

The Church teaches Jesus teachings, but in regards to slavery and usury it clearly is capable of developing its understanding of them. Perhaps in time the current view will evolve also and IFV will come to be seen as a cure to a disease, or remain as it is. I think the latter but I am open to the concept that I could be wrong.

It’s not the Pope who is going to be examining your case on judgement day, it is God. So yes…His opinion is a priority, and we’ve clearly buggered up working out what that means before. (cough Torture being used by Benedictine inquisitors hack)

I’m pretty sure that the Church never had a teaching in favour of slavery. But slavery would in fact be contrary to other basic teachings. I can’t comment on the assertion that the church did not speak out on something, such as slavery, till date X, but that can’t be construed to represent a U-turn on teaching. It may indeed be a failure of church authorities to speak out, to give witness, but there is no U-turn on teaching.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

It is pretty unusual for a woman in a multiple births situation to nominate a proportion of her babies for adoption. Perhaps it is conceivable that parents might be unable to manage and to take that route, eg. Single mothers or severe financial hardship cases, etc. Is that how you see your potential situation ? How many embryos will be produced by the IVF procedure?

The issue I see is that you seem to be making the decision to get pregnant AND to not accept children beyond 1 or 2, all in advance! When one is using NFP to avoid/ defer, the decisions are taken 1 month at a time. You are saying “now” (if I’ve followed accurately) you will set out to have one or two children, and should there be more that I could bring up, I will refuse and instead “adopt them out”.

You can never be certain how many embryos will be created. For all I know we could only end up with 2 fertilized embryos to transfer. Perhaps we could end up with 5. If we ended up with more than what is considered safe to transfer (2 is the max you should transfer to avoid the risks of a higher order multiple pregnancy) then the rest of the embryos would be frozen.

That’s not to say that we wouldn’t use them. That’s not to say that we wouldn’t be open to a subsequent pregnancy or pregnancies.

But once an embryo is created, the horse is out of the barn so to speak. If we were not in a position to raise an additional child/children, the decision to place a remaining embryo/embryos for adoption would be no different than a couple who had an unplanned pregnancy choosing to place the child for adoption.

 

[april32010]

Those “lab made and created commodities” will go through no more or no less trauma than a child who is naturally conceived and placed for adoption.

wow,this is one hell of an assumption on your part.also rather dismissive of the inherent dignity of all life.you have no idea of the depth and dignity of the Churchs teaching on life.

 

[Viewer]

I’m pretty sure that the Church never had a teaching in favour of slavery. But slavery would in fact be contrary to other basic teachings. I can’t comment on the assertion that the church did not speak out on something, such as slavery, till date X, but that can’t be construed to represent a U-turn on teaching. It may indeed be a failure of church authorities to speak out, to give witness, but there is no U-turn on teaching.

Throughout most of human history, slavery has been practiced and accepted by many cultures and religions around the world. Certain passages in the Old Testament sanctioned slavery[2] and the New Testament gave no clear teaching to indicate that slavery was now prohibited. Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery could not be justified under natural law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law. As a consequence the Roman Catholic Church, up until the modern era, came to accept certain types of slavery as a social consequence of the current human condition, connected by some with original sin, but teaching that slaves should be treated humanely and justly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

There is more here, “Just” slavery was all fine and dandy for many years, the Jesuits owned a good plenty of them and many early books critical of slavery ended up on the forbidden books list.

Papal bulls such as Dum Diversas, Romanus Pontifex and their derivatives, sanctioned slavery and were used to justify enslavement of natives and the appropriation of their lands during this era [Spanish Conquest of South America]

That sounds pretty supportive to me.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

wow,this is one hell of an assumption on your part.also rather dismissive of the inherent dignity of all life.you have no idea of the depth and dignity of the Churchs teaching on life.

Really? This is an assumption how? It doesn’t matter how the child was created- whether unintentionally conceived by two married adults, a one night stand, as the result of a rape, or as the “leftover test tube babies”- all orphaned children raised by non-biological families experience a sense of loss.

But with proper parenting and being raised in a Christian home where the child is taught that they were loved, valued, and CHOSEN to become a member of that family, that loss of biological kin can be overcome.

 

[child_of_God85]

Youre doing the right thing OP. You want to bring life into this world, do it. Its no one elses business. You arent doing anything wrong. Its what I would do if I had to. If people dont like it, then whatever.

 

[Peter_Plato]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

There is more here, “Just” slavery was all fine and dandy for many years, the Jesuits owned a good plenty of them and many early books critical of slavery ended up on the forbidden books list.

That sounds pretty supportive to me.

It doesn’t to me, but that is a whole other post.

 

[april32010]

Really? This is an assumption how? It doesn’t matter how the child was created- whether so inintentionally conceived by two married adults, a one night stand, as the result of a rape, or as the “leftover test tube babies”- all orphaned children raised by non-biological families experience a sense of loss. so they have to go thru this so you get what you want.got it

But with proper parenting and being raised in a Christian home where the child is taught that they were loved, valued, and CHOSEN to become a member of that family, that loss of biological kin can be overcome.

 

[april32010]

Youre doing the right thing OP. You want to bring life into this world, do it. Its no one elses business. You arent doing anything wrong. Its what I would do if I had to. If people dont like it, then whatever.

ok,another dissenter heard from

 

[Viewer]

ok,another dissenter heard from

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/5/7/57893_ORIG-U_Mad2.jpg

Oh I’m sorry, I had to. Clearly, there’s going to be little agreement in this thread on anything.

 

[catholick345]

ok,another dissenter heard from

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/4/1/7/1/2/3/he-mad-91028347673.jpeg

Highfives

 

[UnCatholicBride]

so they have to go thru this so you get what you want.got it

A child placed for adoption after birth has to “go thru this” because their biological parents “got what they want” which was to not raise another child.

Please, explain the difference. It’s OK for a woman who is unable to raise a child to place it for adoption, but it is NOT ok to place an embryo that a family is unable to gestate or raise for adoption?

 

[maryjk]

Youre doing the right thing OP. You want to bring life into this world, do it. Its no one elses business. You arent doing anything wrong. Its what I would do if I had to. If people dont like it, then whatever.

And if that is what she wants to do, we can’t stop her.

The problem is that she came here asking for, “advice on the instances in which I have to defend my decision within my parish community.”

Really?

She wants this Catholic community to give her good come backs to use against other Catholics defending Catholic beliefs?

She would be better off going to people that believe the same things she does and to get advice from them.

 

[Viewer]

I have to say, and this is from somone who entered into this with a dislike of IVF I find Bride’s arguments to be the most compelling thus far.

Don’t get me wrong, I find the process itself more than enough to creep me out and I wary enough about the failure rates to not consider taking a u-turn.

Just saying folks, I’ve not seen anything that really beats the argument down except that it’s against the Church’s current teachings. You’re probably going to need a bit more.

She wants this Catholic community to give her good come backs to use against other Catholics defending Catholic beliefs?

I think this is more to do with trying to change Catholic opinion. CAF is a prime testing ground for arguments after all, especially ones that go against Catholic doctrine in the apologetics section. You’re bound to get tons of responses to test the reasoning in yours.

 

[april32010]

A child placed for adoption after birth has to “go thru this” because their biological parents “got what they want” which was to not raise another child.

Please, explain the difference. It’s OK for a woman who is unable to raise a child to place it for adoption, but it is NOT ok to place an embryo that a family is unable to gestate or raise for adoption?

to you the child is collateral damage

 

[UnCatholicBride]

to you the child is collateral damage

And an adopted-after-birth child would be “collateral damage” to the conjugal act of a married couple. Yet I don’t see anyone saying that a married couple placing a child for adoption is immoral.