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Aquinas62
Guest
my apologies…
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Yellow_Belle
Guest
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Aquinas62
Guest
Talk about fantasy, you really think this was a peaceful mission? and I am sure that Hamas has always been above board? Do you think that if Israel agreed to every one of the demands placed upon it, that Hamas would then live in peace with Israel? NOW THAT IS A FANTASY!! I dont think so… Their own charter demands the eradication of Israel.
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Kadaveri
Guest
Well at least I actually provide evidence before making claims, whereas you seem happy to just make stuff up. There’s no evidence that those ships were trying to deliver weapons or anything but humanitarian aid, and Israel itself accepts this. So will you please withdraw your claims.
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Aquinas62
Guest
NO I will not… I have been following this conflict all my adult life, and I will not apologize, I stand by my statement. You just cherry picked one part of my remarks, but conveniently did not address the rest…
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jman507
Guest
It was not solely going there to provide humanitarian aid. It was a protest to undermine the blockade, and that was know before hand.
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grampben
Guest
British neoconservative commentator Douglas Murray has an interesting blog post on this issue. blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/douglasmurray/100041868/knives-batons-and-attempted-lynchings-dont-you-just-love-peace-activists/
It should be noted that neocons in both Britain and the USA are divided on this issue. Even pro Israel commentators like Oliver Kamm are condemning Israel. What has interested me most about this case is that even a lot of pro-Israel people are coming out condemning them. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Nothing about the situation there is easy, and romantic adventures undertaken by idealistic westerners will not make it easy. Nor will the “Allah wants the Jews killed” in the Hamas charter make it easy either. Nevertheless, there are people of serious mind in the world and of serious purpose, who really are doing those things that can be done. This man is one of them: palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/topnews/archive/2010/05/11/nablus-philanthropist-to-broker-peace-with-hamas.aspx. There are others; some of whom I know and others I do not know. It would probably surprise you to know who is actually on speaking terms, even friendly relations with whom over there.
“Palestine” and “Palestinians” are not “Japan” and “Japanese”. They are not a cohesive people in a clearly defined land. Taking attitudes based on someone’s notion of “legality” is likewise misplaced. “Palestinians” never, at any time in history, owned that part of “Palestine” that is in the West Bank. Most Palestinians don’t even live in Palestine, if you don’t count Jordan as part of Palestine. Jordan is, though, and most Palestinians are Jordanians just as most Jordanians are Palestinians. Resolution of things in the Middle East does not depend on whether or not Hamas bullies get wide screen TV sets through a blockade. There can never be peace there without the active affirmation and efforts of Jordan, where most Palestinians actually live, and where many actually govern.
Palestinian loyalty is not to nation, but to tribe. Some tribes are allied, and some are deadly enemies. When one talks about “legality”, one has to also admit that the Hamas governance of Gaza is entirely “illegal”. Yes, they came out on top in one election. But they did not accept the results even so. It is as if, after the 2008 election the Democrats had tortured and shot scores of Republicans and driven the rest into Canada. And when they do that to their “own”, what can Israelis expect of them. It is unlikely Hamas would win another election if they allowed one.
The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and every Jew there. If Hamas won’t even tolerate PA in its borders, what on earth would make anyone think they would tolerate Israelis in the land they claim Allah wants to be Muslim only? It’s all well and good for us, in the civilized safety of the West to assume Hamas would tolerate Israel. But when they say they won’t tolerate Jews within any border whatever, and torture and kill their own fellow Palestinians, what can we believe about that? At some point, romantic sentimentalism about “the underdog” has to give way to the brutal reality.
Hopefully, at some point, the men of serious intelligence and effect; the men who do not revel in violence and jihadism and spending Iranian money, will effect resolutions. Without doubt, some men of such timbre are in Hamas. But they don’t control Hamas.
(continued)
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Ridgerunner
Guest
(continued)
There will be a lot of resolutions needed, and not just between Israel and Arabs. It’s also needed between Arab groups and Arab groups. There are, as someone pointed out, groups of Jews in Israel who do not get along; who do not see things the same way and feel adamant about it. The same is true in the U.S. But there is a difference. In Israel and in the U.S. there are longstanding structures for resolving such things, and mechanisms in place to work them out. There is also a reverence for the rule of law. In the world of the Arab Palestinians there are very few means for resolving anything, except the tribal notions of domination and retribution. That does not mean none are able to learn or that none are learning.
Look at a place like Iraq. It has a far more longstanding history of self-governance than do the Palestinians. But the tribe and jihadism and ancient enmities still rip the country apart at times. One can hope they will eventually achieve means of self-governance that are not just “slaughter the enemy!” One can, and should, have the same hope for the Levant.
But it takes serious, painstaking, arduous work by people of serious mind. It requires establishing understandings concerning commerce, finance, communication and infrastructure. None of this is easy. Romanticism has no rightful place in it. I will admit I have little sympathy with the Madame Kollontays who go off on romantic larks that often prove deadly, and the “Miss Jean Brodie” mentors who teach them that foolishness is wisdom.
God willing, the serious people will make it work. They have been at it a very long time. Some have been killed for their efforts. Doubtless, more will die. I am put to mind of two well-placed Palestinians I know who were nearly killed in that wedding massacre in Amman. They put a lot of effort into the Oslo process, and it very nearly worked. But for Yasser Arafat’s greed and his starting the Intifada to cover up his thieving, it probably would have worked. But they’re still at it. Such men will cause peace to come to the region if it ever does. But the giddy, and the silly and the gullible will never accomplish anything but their own deaths and the needless deaths of others.
There will be a lot of resolutions needed, and not just between Israel and Arabs. It’s also needed between Arab groups and Arab groups. There are, as someone pointed out, groups of Jews in Israel who do not get along; who do not see things the same way and feel adamant about it. The same is true in the U.S. But there is a difference. In Israel and in the U.S. there are longstanding structures for resolving such things, and mechanisms in place to work them out. There is also a reverence for the rule of law. In the world of the Arab Palestinians there are very few means for resolving anything, except the tribal notions of domination and retribution. That does not mean none are able to learn or that none are learning.
Look at a place like Iraq. It has a far more longstanding history of self-governance than do the Palestinians. But the tribe and jihadism and ancient enmities still rip the country apart at times. One can hope they will eventually achieve means of self-governance that are not just “slaughter the enemy!” One can, and should, have the same hope for the Levant.
But it takes serious, painstaking, arduous work by people of serious mind. It requires establishing understandings concerning commerce, finance, communication and infrastructure. None of this is easy. Romanticism has no rightful place in it. I will admit I have little sympathy with the Madame Kollontays who go off on romantic larks that often prove deadly, and the “Miss Jean Brodie” mentors who teach them that foolishness is wisdom.
God willing, the serious people will make it work. They have been at it a very long time. Some have been killed for their efforts. Doubtless, more will die. I am put to mind of two well-placed Palestinians I know who were nearly killed in that wedding massacre in Amman. They put a lot of effort into the Oslo process, and it very nearly worked. But for Yasser Arafat’s greed and his starting the Intifada to cover up his thieving, it probably would have worked. But they’re still at it. Such men will cause peace to come to the region if it ever does. But the giddy, and the silly and the gullible will never accomplish anything but their own deaths and the needless deaths of others.
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Kadaveri
Guest
Indeed. A blockade which has been condemned by the UN as illegal and a ‘medieval seige’. A blockade that Amnesty International just last week called ‘a flagrant violation of international law’ which was ‘deepening Gaza’s ongoing humanitarian crisis’ and was ‘a form of collective punishment of Gazans’. A blockade that UN’s Elders (people like Nelson Mandela, Jimmy Carter, Bishop Tutu) also just called ‘one of the world’s greatest human rights violations’. A blockade which the World Health Organisation last week said is blocking vital medical supplies from entering the territory.
A blockade which in March 2008 Amnesty International, Care International UK, Cafod, Christian Aid, Medecins du Monde UK, Oxfam, Save the Children UK and Trocaire published a report saying had caused the worst humanitarian crisis in Gaza since 1967. A blockade which lead then UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and former Irish President Mary Robinson to say when visiting Gaza in November 2008 ‘their whole civilisation has been destroyed, I’m not exaggerating. It’s almost unbelievable that the world doesn’t care while this is happening’. A blockade which last June the Red Cross in a report called ‘Gaza: 1.5 million people trapped in despair’ said had mostly destroyed Gaza’s healthcare services.
A blockade which lead the head of Gaza’s United Nations Work and Relief Agency John Ging to say ‘the situation is desperate, devastating and unbearable. Each day that passes brings more misery and suffering’. A blockade which last September which the chief prosecutor of the war crimes tribunals in Yugoslavia and Ruwanda Richard Goldstone called a possible crime against humanity. A blockade which last January lead Human Rights Watch to publish a report called ‘Deprived and Endangered: Humanitarian Crisis in the Gaza Strip’ detailing the suffering, and send a letter to Hillary Clinton calling the blockade ‘collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population - a serious violation of international law’ and demand that she pressure the Israeli government to lift it immediately.
A blockade which the Israelis began by saying "the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet. They’ll get a lot thinner, but they won’t die’.
Of course they were trying to stop this blockade.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Yes, and many of similar stripe blame Cuba’s wretched poverty on the U.S. Never mind that torturers and murderers run the country and live well while others starve. It’s all the U.S.’ fault notwithstanding the slave labor and the imprisonments for saying what one thinks. It’s all the U.S.’ fault when 90% of the Cuban population supports the 10% (in luxury) who rule with the gun.
This is all just the romanticism of the spoiled and the cynicism of the corrupt.
The Middle East needs real answers, not a bunch of “Che lives!” silliness.
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Kadaveri
Guest
I agree. So don’t drag in Cuba and Che Guevara to distract people from the issue.
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jman507
Guest
And also from the Israeli perspective it is trying to stop a grave security threat. If you fear for your safety what is legal and what is not, what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable by third parties, starts to be come a moot point. So I don’t think that it is fantasy to think that this mission could be considered by some as a mission to try to ultimatly open up weapon shipments into Gaza.
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Kadaveri
Guest
No it’s not. The Israelis themselves say the blockade is not about security, but rather is ‘economic warfare’ designed to punish Gaza’s civilian population. As I said before Ariel Sharon’s spokesman Dov Weissglass announced the blockade by saying “the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet. They’ll get a lot thinner, but they won’t die”, what does that have to do with security? Do Palestinians eat weapons? Have the Israelis forbidden coriander, sage, ginger, seeds, nuts, dried fruit, oranges, pasta, insulin, tea, coffee, fresh meat, paper, books, newspapers, fabrics, clothes, shoes, blankets, lifestock, potato chips, vinegar etc… because Palestinians could use them as weapons? When they invaded Gaza a year and a half ago did they destroy Gaza’s main chicken farm in Gaza with tanks killing 65,000 chickens, bomb Gaza’s only operating flour mill, bomb Gaza’s sewage works, destroy Gaza’s zoo killing all its animals, because these places posed a threat to its security? Be serious.
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jman507
Guest
So that stuff is on the blockade but weapons are allowed in? If you want me to be serious, could it be that it may be done to try to stop the flow and also to with hold other goods. It would be a false dichotomy to say that the only two reasons for the blockade would be to stop the flow of weapons or to stop the flow of consumer goods.
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Yellow_Belle
Guest
But, if it’s to stop the flow of weapons, why are the things Kadaveri listed (and many others) prohibited, too?
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jman507
Guest
It would be a false dichotomy to think that the aim would only have to be to stop the flow of weapons.
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Yellow_Belle
Guest
So it is also the collective punishment of the Palestinian people?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
No sir. It’s apt. Like Castro and his killers, Hamas keeps Palestinians in poverty and wretchedness, and for what? Here’s from their charter:
'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian
movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is
Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of
Palestine.’ (Article 6)
On the Destruction of Israel:
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’ (Preamble)
It’s appropriate to remind westerners, many of whom do not know what Hamas is, that people like Che and Castro and Stalin and Mao and Hamas are all of a kind. They have the same violence in expression; the same violence in action; the same heedlessness of human life; the same imprisonment of their own peoples while blaming it on others.
It is because many westerners have, in recent years, come to realize, after many years of romantic adulation of political sociopaths, that it is well to point out that the villains they don’t know are really no different from the villains they do know.
The “Internationale” really is a stirring song. Makes one catch one’s breath, almost. The siren song of the jihadis and just plain thugs in the Middle East can be just as stirring to some who haven’t quite made the connection between, e.g., shooting rockets at civilians and villainy.
But, okay. So many Muslims hate Jews. That’s their problem, and they may think it excuses murderousness toward Jews. But it does not change the fact that many over there are just as murderous toward their own people. Is anyone really so naive as to believe that a gang which tortured and murdered their own people (PA, and yes they did) quite “illegally” in order to gain uncontested power, is somehow virtuous?
Some still are, it appears. Hopefully after Hamas’ latest exercise in Kabuki Theatre is better understood, fewer will be.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I am obliged to do other things tonight. I could ask that nobody “shoot me in the back” when I leave this thread. If someone does, that will not “prove” that the Hamas way of thinking is manifest on here. But it will rhyme with it.
God bless those who really want peace. Who REALLY do.
God bless those who really want peace. Who REALLY do.
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