Define Born again

[John1717]

Church Militant:

Hi John and welcome
The passage is 1 Peter 3:21 “Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:…”
Also Titus 3:5

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/welcom8.gif

1 Peter 3:21 tells us, “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Baptism represents a complete break with one’s past life. As the Flood wiped away the old sinful world, so baptism pictures one’s break from his old sinful life and his entrance into new life in Christ. Peter now applied to his readers the principle he set forth in verses 13-17 and illustrated in verses 18-20. He exhorted them to have the courage to commit themselves to a course of action by taking a public stand for Christ through baptism. The act of public baptism would “save” them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution. For a first-century Christian, baptism meant he was following through on his commitment to Christ, regardless of the consequences.

 

[John1717]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi John!

We are not saved by works alone, nor are we saved by faith alone. The two word together. In baptism we die with Christ and are raised to new life (Romans 6:3-4). God’s grace is poured into our souls and we are born again, a new creation. At some point in our lives we must acknowledge that there is no salvation apart from Christ (accept him as Savior) and live our lives according to his will (accept him as our Lord). Apart from faith our works are like filthy rags. Apart from works (the obedience of faith) our faith is dead. The two work together and are completed by the other. Faith is to be lived, not simply verbally professed.

“Faith alone” is not only not found in scripture, it contradicts scripture.

Again, what you are claiming is relatively new teaching, not to be found anywhere prior to the Reformation. It was an extreme reaction to the abuse of Indulgences. In so doing the Reformers threw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and changed 1500 year old doctrine in the process.

In Christ,
Nancy

You are correct that the term “faith alone” is not found in Scripture but neither is the “Trinity” however, the principal of faith alone is!

I repeat:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

Romans 3:20, 28 - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Galatians 2:16 - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

Some of the “Church Fathers”, who are often quoted by Catholics in support of “Tradition”, seem to agree with my assertion:

“Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.” - St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.” - St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

“They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed.” - St. John Chrysostom (First Corinthians, Homily 20, PG 61.164)

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify?" You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651).

Can you please give me your definition of “grace?”

 

[John1717]

dcdurel:

I think you are confused by works of the law of Moses and works of the law of Christ, that is, obeying the Gospel.

St Paul was criticizing those Christians who said that following the law of Moses was still necessary (works of the law). Of course, it wasn’t. Once a Jew became a Christian he was no longer under the law of Moses. Thus he didn’t have to follow the Jewish ceremonial laws, such as Sabbath worship, being circumcised, following Jewish feast days. Thus, if a Christian followed the ceremonial works of the law of Moses, (such as circumcision) then he was NOT obeying God and thus was not being justified. He was working on his own.
Once a Jew became a Christian he was under the law of Christ. Thus,** he must do good works**. When Christians obey Jesus and follow His teachings as taught by His Church then they receive more of the grace which Jesus merited by His death on the Cross. And this grace justifies us even more. Thus, salvation is through Jesus who merited the grace of salvation, which we receive by faith and works. By works, we mean obeying God’s teachings.
That is why the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit says
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
faith alone.
In this case the bible is referring to obedience to God when it refers to works.

When St. Paul says we are justified by faith, apart from works of the law, he is NOT referring to works done out of obedience. Because Christians were never under the law of Moses and never will be under the law of Moses. In other words, if a Christian believes it is necessary to be circumcised and follow the Jewish ceremonial laws, then he is not doing it out of faith and obedience to God. Thus, he cannot be justified by following the ceremonial rituals of the law of Moses (works of the law).

But when a Christian obeys the law of Christ, the Gospel, as taught by His Church, then he receives more of the grace of salvation that Jesus merited by the shedding of His blood. And this grace is what justifies us. Thus as the bible says,
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
faith alone.
This has always been the teaching of Christianity.

I hope this helps.

Please reconcile your views, on faith plus works, with the following verses:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

Romans 3:20, 28 - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Romans 5:1 - “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 11:6 - “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace”

Galatians 2:16 - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Could you please give me your definition of grace? I think it would be helpful to our mutual understanding.

 

[exrc]

Fiat:

Dear exrc:

The blood of Our Lord is what saves us, whether under the Old Covenant or the New. What’s your point here?

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

Finally you are understanding! Now what is the agent he uses to justify? His blood atones, and it is faith alone that justifies. Forgiveness is appropriated through Faith alone in his sacrifice. Imputed righteousness! amen

Bless you my friend!

you are learning very well!

exrc

 

[John1717]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi John!

You’re right, Paul didn’t use the word “baptise” he used the word “bath” or “wash” which is a direct reference to water baptism. What you are claiming here would have been foreign to the Reformers.

In Christ,
Nancy

The Greek word is baptizo, which means “to plunge, to immerse, dip”. The context, biblically, is always that people were baptized “in” water and not “by” or “near” water. The implication of this is that the person was immersed into the water rather than having water sprinkled or poured over them.

Baptism is symbolic of us dying to ourselves when we become Christians (as we go under the water) and being raised up with Him (as we come out of the water). It is acting out in the physical what has happened in the spiritual and is a statement to people and to the spiritual powers that we have been born again.

Romans 6:4 - "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life".

Colossians 2:12 - “having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead”.

In the bible, baptism was always **AFTER **conversion - it was a statement of what you had done and never on infants, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:47, Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:31-33, Acts 18:8etc etc.). The “baptism” of babies began in the middle ages when people thought that if you were not baptised you would not go to heaven and so, because of the high infant mortality, babies were baptised almost at birth.

---

The idea that Baptism is prerequisite for salvation is not consistent with scripture, as we have an example in Luke 23:40-43 when the criminal on the cross puts his faith in Jesus and Jesus tells him that he will see him in paradise. It was this misunderstanding which led to infant baptism and not any biblical teaching.

I hope this is helpful!

 

[John1717]

Catholic4aReasn:

Amen! And that blood is applied to us personally in water baptism.

In Christ,
Nancy

Actually the blood is applied to us when we place our trust (believe) in Jesus as our Lord and Savior! :bowdown2:

 

[John1717]

exrc:

Thanks! they are a stiff necked bunch indeed! As soon as I remind them that no one in the old test. was water baptized, they disappear quick.

God bless you my brother!

Love Dan!

Dan,

Do you ever wonder why anyone would try to help pay for a free gift?

Your brother in Christ,
John

 

[dennisknapp]

1 Peter 3:21 tells us, “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Baptism represents a complete break with one’s past life. As the Flood wiped away the old sinful world, so baptism pictures one’s break from his old sinful life and his entrance into new life in Christ. Peter now applied to his readers the principle he set forth in verses 13-17 and illustrated in verses 18-20. He exhorted them to have the courage to commit themselves to a course of action by taking a public stand for Christ through baptism. The act of public baptism would “save” them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution. For a first-century Christian, baptism meant he was following through on his commitment to Christ, regardless of the consequences.

Wow! That’s some Scriptural gymnastics!

 

[dennisknapp]

John1717:

The Greek word is baptizo, which means “to plunge, to immerse, dip”. The context, biblically, is always that people were baptized “in” water and not “by” or “near” water. The implication of this is that the person was immersed into the water rather than having water sprinkled or poured over them.

Baptism is symbolic of us dying to ourselves when we become Christians (as we go under the water) and being raised up with Him (as we come out of the water). It is acting out in the physical what has happened in the spiritual and is a statement to people and to the spiritual powers that we have been born again.

Romans 6:4 - "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life".

Colossians 2:12 - “having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead”.

In the bible, baptism was always **AFTER **conversion - it was a statement of what you had done and never on infants, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:47, Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:31-33, Acts 18:8etc etc.). The “baptism” of babies began in the middle ages when people thought that if you were not baptised you would not go to heaven and so, because of the high infant mortality, babies were baptised almost at birth.

The idea that Baptism is prerequisite for salvation is not consistent with scripture, as we have an example in Luke 23:40-43 when the criminal on the cross puts his faith in Jesus and Jesus tells him that he will see him in paradise. It was this misunderstanding which led to infant baptism and not any biblical teaching.

I hope this is helpful!

Please, show me anywhere in the history of Christianity prior to the 16th century that ANYONE held this interpretation of baptism?

You chose to throw a bunch of Scriptural passages at us and expect us to buy into your interpretation. You fail to realize that we are Catholics and do not agree with Scripture alone as the only reliable authority regarding faith and morals.

This issue is not about baptism, its about authority. You expect us to believe the Bible plus YOU, when we adhere to Scripture plus Tradition interpretated through the Magisterium, the heirs of the Apostles.

In order to convince us of anything in regards to faith and morals you have to employ the use of Scripture, Tradition and the Magistarium. Do this and we will consider your interpretation.

 

[dcdurel]

John1717:

Please reconcile your views, on faith plus works, with the following verses:
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

The Church has always taught that we are saved by grace. This grace we receive through faith in Jesus and what He taught. He taught we first receive this grace at baptism. Thus, when we are baptized, we receive the grace of salvation free. It does not depend on what we have done before baptism. Thus, for adults, as long as they are repentant and reject sin and satan and intend to follow Jesus and His Church then they are saved by the grace of salvation they receive at baptism. It is not a result of any works, whether good or bad.
Of course, after they have been saved, they must obey God to constantly renew this grace and grow in this grace and keep this grace. Thus we need both faith and obedience to God to receive and keep the grace of justification.

Romans 3:20, 28 - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Again, if you look at the context St. Paul was writing about, it was concerning the ceremonial works of the law of Moses. Some Jewish christians claimed Christians had to be circumcised again and follow the law of Moses. But since even Jewish Christians were no longer under the law of Moses, then obedience to this law was not required. Thus, those Christians who followed the law of Moses could not be justified by following it. We are justified for obeying the law, if it is the law of Christ, that is the Gospel as taught by the Church. That is why St. Paul also wrote,
------------- Romans 2:5 --------------
5 "But by your hard and impenitent
heart you are storing up wrath for
yourself on the day of wrath when
God’s righteous judgment will be
revealed.
6 For he will render to every man
according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in
well-doing seek for glory and honor
and immortality, he will give eternal
life;
8 but for those who are factious
and do not obey the truth, but obey
wickedness, there will be wrath and
fury."
I think Martin Luther misled many Christians by implying St. Paul was writing about the law of Christ, when he referred to circumcision and other ceremonail “works of the law”, when in actualiy he was writing about the law of Moses.

Romans 5:1 - “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 11:6 - “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace”

Again, he is referring to works of the law of Moses, circumcision, Jewish feast days, Sabbath observence, not eating unclean foods, etc., that is works done without faith in Jesus. He is not referring to the law of Christ in these passages. Read the context.

Galatians 2:16 - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Same response as above. In other words, you have been taught that St. Paul is referring to obedience to God by the terms “the works of the law”. This is incorrect. The very reason he condemns the idea that “works of the law” are necessary is because it was NOT obdiedence to God. But obedience does make us righteous and justifies us. Notice what St.Paul writes:
------------- Romans 6:16 -------------
16 Do you not know that if you
yield yourselves to any one as
obedient slaves, you are slaves of
the one whom you obey, either of sin,
which leads to death, or of
obedience, which leads to
righteousness?
Thus St. Paul agrees with James who writes
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
**faith alone. **
If you notice James was not writing about ceremonial works, but works resulting from obeying God, keeping the commandments.
St. Paul makes that clear again.
1Co 7:19 For neither circumcision
counts for anything nor
uncircumcision, but keeping the
commandments of God.

Could you please give me your definition of grace? I think it would be helpful to our mutual understanding.

Sure, grace is the favor of Christ’s life within us.

 

[Church_Militant]

by taking a public stand for Christ through baptism. The act of public baptism would “save” them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution. For a first-century Christian, baptism meant he was following through on his commitment to Christ, regardless of the consequences.

John I think you’re way wrong on this concept of “taking a public stand for Christ through baptism”. You seem to have forgotten that the early church was under nearly contant persecution unto death for about its first 325 years or so. A public Baptism and stand would have been a quick death sentence. the history of those times does not support your interpretation. Many paid that price, but they didn’t bop down to the river and hold a baptismal service. just wasn’t done.

All Catholics are born again since we are validly baptised with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and profess faith in the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary as the redemption form all our sins, both original and actual. We then walk out that salvation by actually doing the things that Jesus commanded us to do in order to attain heaven in Matthew 25:31-46 and other Bible passages as well. all our good works are simply another example of our cooperation with God’s superabundant grace that empowers us to live a life in imitation of Christ as a new creation.

 

[exrc]

Hey all,

Maria and I started this thread together to define born again. Let’s stay on the subject. I submitted a definition for your scrutiny. Please respond to it so we can move on to the next phase, which is what does it procure.

Thanks!

exrc

 

[exrc]

John1717:

Dan,

Do you ever wonder why anyone would try to help pay for a free gift?

Your brother in Christ,
John

They forget what it means to become like a little child. Children know how to receive a gift, but adults seem to want to control things with their own flavor of rules. If they only could realize that they are frustrating Gods grace, and ultimately nullifying it. Thanks for reminding me how precious the irrevocable gift is.

Thanks for the encouragment brother!

Peace, blessings, and love

exrc

P.S. What is*** your** * story? Unless that is private.

 

[Fiat]

Dear Exrc:

You said:

Finally you are understanding! Now what is the agent he uses to justify? His blood atones, and it is faith alone that justifies. Forgiveness is appropriated through Faith alone in his sacrifice. Imputed righteousness! amen

How do you arrive at this conclusion, exactly? There is no question that it is Christ’s blood that atones. Has anyone here denied that? The Holy Catholic Church doesn’t deny that!

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[Fiat]

Dear John1717:

You said:

As the Flood wiped away the old sinful world, so baptism pictures one’s break from his old sinful life and his entrance into new life in Christ.

You are stumbling over your own comparison. The flood a-c-t-u-a-l-l-y wiped away the sinful world. You say that the baptismal waters do not do this.

In faith,
Fiat

 

[exrc]

Fiat:

Dear Exrc:

You said:

How do you arrive at this conclusion, exactly? There is no question that it is Christ’s blood that atones. Has anyone here denied that? The Holy Catholic Church doesn’t deny that!

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

Please pick another thread to discuss this subject. I want to stay on track. Do you have any objections to my definition of born again?

thanks!

 

[Fiat]

Dear Exrc:

I can’t seem to find your definition of “born again.” It may be helpful to repeat it or at least direct us to it. This thread is lengthy.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[dennisknapp]

exrc:

They forget what it means to become like a little child. Children know how to receive a gift, but adults seem to want to control things with their own flavor of rules. If they only could realize that they are frustrating Gods grace, and ultimately nullifying it. Thanks for reminding me how precious the irrevocable gift is.

Thanks for the encouragment brother!

Peace, blessings, and love

exrc

P.S. What is*** your** * story? Unless that is private.

Please, show me anywhere in the history of Christianity prior to the 16th century that ANYONE held this interpretation of baptism?

You chose to throw a bunch of Scriptural passages at us and expect us to buy into your interpretation. You fail to realize that we are Catholics and do not agree with Scripture alone as the only reliable authority regarding faith and morals.

This issue is not about baptism, its about authority. You expect us to believe the Bible plus YOU, when we adhere to Scripture plus Tradition interpretated through the Magisterium, the heirs of the Apostles.

In order to convince us of anything in regards to faith and morals you have to employ the use of Scripture, Tradition and the Magistarium. Do this and we will consider your interpretation.

 

[exrc]

Fiat:

Dear Exrc:

I can’t seem to find your definition of “born again.” It may be helpful to repeat it or at least direct us to it. This thread is lengthy.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

Born again: The instantaneous birth of ones spirit, upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, the reversal of the damage caused by the first Adam,( i.e.) which was instantaneous spiritual death upon the act of one sin. Essentially becomming spiritually alive.

 

[exrc]

dennisknapp:

Please, show me anywhere in the history of Christianity prior to the 16th century that ANYONE held this interpretation of baptism?

You chose to throw a bunch of Scriptural passages at us and expect us to buy into your interpretation. You fail to realize that we are Catholics and do not agree with Scripture alone as the only reliable authority regarding faith and morals.

This issue is not about baptism, its about authority. You expect us to believe the Bible plus YOU, when we adhere to Scripture plus Tradition interpretated through the Magisterium, the heirs of the Apostles.

In order to convince us of anything in regards to faith and morals you have to employ the use of Scripture, Tradition and the Magistarium. Do this and we will consider your interpretation.

Please pick another thread to discuss this subject. I want to stay on track. Do you have any objections to my definition of born again?

thanks!

Born again: The instantaneous birth of ones spirit, upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, the reversal of the damage caused by the first Adam,( i.e.) which was instantaneous spiritual death upon the act of one sin. Essentially becomming spiritually alive.