Define Born again

[Catholic4aReasn]

exrc:

blah,blah,blah, study this thread, and study your bible! Answer my last post if you have the courage. #105 wise guy!

exrc

Hi exrc!

There is no question in post #105. Could you have meant another post?

In Christ,
Nancy

PS You’re coming across as a spiritual snob. I’m sure you’re not meaning to but you are. As the poster, and the only one privvy to your tone, you probably have no idea how your words might be perceived by others. Just an observation. :tiphat:

 

[exrc]

dennisknapp:

Cont.

“But as our would-be wise, new spirits assert that faith alone saves, and that works and external things avail nothing, we answer: It is true, indeed, that nothing in us is of any avail but faith, as we shall hear still further. But these blind guides are unwilling to see this, namely, that faith must have something which it believes, that is, of which it takes hold, and upon which it stands and rests. Thus faith clings to the water, and believes that it is Baptism, in which there is pure salvation and life; not through the water (as we have sufficiently stated), but through the fact that it is embodied in the Word and institution of God, and the name of God inheres in it. Now, if I believe this, what else is it than believing in God as in Him who has given and planted His Word into this ordinance, and proposes to us this external thing wherein we may apprehend such a treasure?”

So, who has misunderstood Luther?

Are you espousing Luther?

No where in my posts did I say that we should not be water baptized. Look at post #75.

My argument is with baptism without belief, such as infant baptism.

This thread is about** what **born again is, not how it happens.

Have to go, answer more later.

exrc

 

[Fiat]

Hi Exrc:

I’m curious as to whether there are scripture passages that indicate that the faith associated with the water baptism must be that of the individual being baptized. If that is the case, then how much faith is required, exactly. I know that as I mature as a Christian, my faith is strengthened each day so that when I look back at the faith I had when I was first baptized (5 years ago), I see how paltry it was.

(Lest you think I’m trying to pick a fight with you, I’m not…I’d just be curious to see scripture passages that point out that it is the faith of the individual.)

Peace
Fiat

 

[dennisknapp]

exrc:

Are you espousing Luther?

No where in my posts did I say that we should not be water baptized. Look at post #75.

My argument is with baptism without belief, such as infant baptism.

This thread is about** what **born again is, not how it happens.

Have to go, answer more later.

exrc

No, I am not espousing Luther.

I stated that no one believed that being born again was anything but water baptism by the Holy Spirit until the 16th century. I even stated that Luther also believed this to be true.

You came back and challenged my knowledge on what Luther believed with the “faith alone” comment. I was just showing evidence.

Again, your beliefs regarding what being “born again” means did not exist until the 16th century and were even dismissed my the founder of Protestantism.

So, therefore your belief is a “tradition of men” and we should flee from it. Unless you have proof that anyone believed the same as you prior to the 16th century? Find that and I will believe you.

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

Respectly,I dont necessarily see a household to have a meaning that there are infants in it. That is based on our assumptions. Water baptism doesnt save,its the BLOOD of Christ that saves us. God Bless.

But you have a NT scripture that clearly says “Baptism now saves you…”

How you gonna deal with that?
One minute you tell me to take the Bible literally, then you discount a verse that clearly makes a relevent statement. SPOKENWORD…what’s up w/that?
No wonder this is your favorite icon…LOL
Tea Bro?

 

[Church_Militant]

exrc:

To all,

I think It is safe to say that we have defined born again sufficiently.

Let’s review!

Born again: The instantaneous birth of ones spirit, upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, the reversal of the damage caused by the first Adam,( i.e.) which was instantaneous spiritual death upon the act of one sin. Essentially becomming spiritually alive.

Our next task should be to discover what this has procured for us.

exrc

There is far more to rebirth than you outline here and you CANNOT define it as “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” because that is a new doctrinaLterm that did not exist in the NT church and means something completely different today. You have twisted words and meanings to set people up for your misbegotten evangelism.

ALSO…I resent your remark that you’d rather be burned at the stake and see your family tortured that be converted to Catholicism. THAT is just insulting and uncalled for. You display all the charity of a venomous snake and your total ignorance of real Catholic teaching leads me to believe that you never were a Catholic to begin with, but are someone that is just out to sow confusion and allegations…just like heretics did in the first couple of centuries. We survived then (because of Christ’s promise to us all through Peter, that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church) and we’ll survive you as well.

Listen man…your rhetoric is weak and old and the doctrines of men dressed up and delivered to people with itching ears who don’t want real Christianity, but some easier way that satisfies their human thinking.

 

[Church_Militant]

exrc:

Really? so salvation by faith alone really means by water baptism? Maybe you should spend some time reading Luther before you engage me, lest you make short work of yourself.

exrc

This phrase is NOT in the NT. Luther added the word “alone” to his German translation to support his new doctrine of “Sola Fide”.
When confronted about it he blew up and told his followwers to say that “Papists and asses are one and the same” and that he had made it so because that is what he wanted it to say regardless of what the original language said. It’s a false doctrine that has long since been refuted by Catholics from the very day it came out. It was doctrinal trash then and it’s trash today. Sorry if the truth hurts…

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

But you have a NT scripture that clearly says “Baptism now saves you…”

How you gonna deal with that?
One minute you tell me to take the Bible literally, then you discount a verse that clearly makes a relevent statement. SPOKENWORD…what’s up w/that?
No wonder this is your favorite icon…LOL
Tea Bro?

Hi C.M, Without the BLOOD there is no salvation.Can we agree on that comment? Thank God we have time to try to figure this all out. Is the Tea ready? God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi C.M, Without the BLOOD there is no salvation.Can we agree on that comment? Thank God we have time to try to figure this all out. Is the Tea ready? God Bless

When ever you’re around…it’s always ready Bro.

 

[RedDeathsMask]

Save your breath, there are too many anti-catholics in the world to evangelize and too many heretics.

 

[John1717]

Hi Everyone,

I think that to be “Born Again” means that you have repented of your sins and have accepted Gods gift of salvation by trusting in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I must acknowledge that I can do nothing to earn my salvation nor contribute anything to it. It’s all of God and none of me.

 

[John1717]

I’ve read most of the posts so I think I’m ready to comment.

I see that many of you believe that to be “Born Again” requires water baptism but I must respectfully disagree.

John 3:3 states, *"…no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." *
V 5: “…no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”
V 6: *"**Flesh *gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Now look at John 1: 12-13: “Yet to all who received him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God – children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God.”

John 3:5 contrasts physical birth to spiritual birth. This is consistent with John 1:12-13 which repeats the contrast – physical birth to spiritual birth. It has nothing to do with baptism!

Now some would appeal to Mark 16:16 in support of baptism however, this too is not the case.

Mark 16: 15-16 states, " He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice that it is unbelief that brings damnation, not a lack of being baptized! When someone rejects the gospel, refusing to believe it, that person is damned. It is not baptism that saves but the gospel.

Look at 1 Cor.15:1 - 2 which states, “…I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved…”

Again you can see that the gospel saves you not baptism! This is not to say that baptism is not important. It should be the first act of obedience to God following a person’s conversion to Christ. But even though we should obey God and get baptized, we must not forget that our faith in Christ is what saves us(Acts 16:31; John 3:16), not baptism! Baptism is basically a public profession of faith. It says to the whole world, "I’m a believer in Christ and have identified my life with Him.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[John1717]

Church Militant:

But you have a NT scripture that clearly says “Baptism now saves you…”

How you gonna deal with that?
One minute you tell me to take the Bible literally, then you discount a verse that clearly makes a relevent statement. SPOKENWORD…what’s up w/that?
No wonder this is your favorite icon…LOL
Tea Bro?

Hi CM,

I’m new to this thread and maybe I missed a post, so please bear with me. Could you please give me the verse that clearly says “Baptism now saves you…” I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you :tiphat:

 

[John1717]

exrc:

Are you espousing Luther?

No where in my posts did I say that we should not be water baptized. Look at post #75.

My argument is with baptism without belief, such as infant baptism.

This thread is about** what **born again is, not how it happens.

Have to go, answer more later.

exrc

You seem to have your hands full. Need some help?

 

[John1717]

dennisknapp:

In Luther’s Small Catechsim:

"How can water do such great things? - Answer. It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying."

You quote Titus 3:5 which states, *“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” *

In this verse the Greek word for baptism (baptizo) is not used. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism! Paul refers to “*washing of regeneration” (Greek loutrou) *to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation. The fact that this is a *“washing of regeneration” *indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God’s mercy.

 

[dennisknapp]

John1717:

You quote Titus 3:5 which states, *“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” *

In this verse the Greek word for baptism (baptizo) is not used. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism! Paul refers to “*washing of regeneration” (Greek loutrou) *to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation. The fact that this is a *“washing of regeneration” *indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God’s mercy.

I was just quoting the founder of Protestantism regarding baptism. If you have problem with how he (Luther) interpreted Titus take it up with him.

Thanks

 

[Church_Militant]

John1717:

Hi CM,

I’m new to this thread and maybe I missed a post, so please bear with me. Could you please give me the verse that clearly says “Baptism now saves you…” I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you :tiphat:

Hi John and welcome
The passage is 1 Peter 3:21 “Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:…”
Also Titus 3:5

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/welcom8.gif

 

[Church_Militant]

John1717:

You quote Titus 3:5 which states, *“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” *

In this verse the Greek word for baptism (baptizo) is not used. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism! Paul refers to “*washing of regeneration” (Greek loutrou) *to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation. The fact that this is a *“washing of regeneration” *indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God’s mercy.

John…No way! What other washing is ever meant in the Christian context…? Don’t spiritualize the passage like that…
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/nono5.gif

If our salvation does not depend on what we do then why would St James say that faith without works is dead? Obviously, if one simply “believes” and does not act upon that belief one remains unsaved. even St. James goes on to ask " What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"(James 2:14) That’s pretty clear and the reformers who formed the Sola Fide doctrine actaully wanted to take the book of James out of the NT canon because this clearly contradicts all their teachings.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

When ever you’re around…it’s always ready Bro.

Ok C.M. The tea is ready but what about the blood? ,do we agree? God Bless

 

[John1717]

Church Militant:

John…No way! What other washing is ever meant in the Christian context…? Don’t spiritualize the passage like that…
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/nono5.gif
I was just pointing out that in this verse **the Greek word for baptism **(baptizo) is not used. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism! Paul refers to “*washing of regeneration” (Greek loutrou) *to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation. The fact that this is a *“washing of regeneration” *indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God’s mercy.

If you have a problem with the inference don’t blame me, blame the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to use the words he did!

If our salvation does not depend on what we do then why would St James say that faith without works is dead? Obviously, if one simply “believes” and does not act upon that belief one remains unsaved. even St. James goes on to ask " What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"(James 2:14) That’s pretty clear and the reformers who formed the Sola Fide doctrine actaully wanted to take the book of James out of the NT canon because this clearly contradicts all their teachings.

James 2:14 states, “…if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?”

James 2:24 states*,“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”* Now contrast this passage with the following:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

Romans 3:20, 28 - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Galatians 2:16 - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

The point is that we are justified by faith but that faith must be alive! The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it.

James is not at odds with Paul. “They are not antagonists facing each other with crossed swords; they stand back to back, confronting different foes of the gospel.” [Alexander Ross, “The Epistle of James and John,” *The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1954), 53.] In 1:17-18, James affirmed that salvation is a gift bestowed according to the sovereign will of God. Now he is stressing the importance of faith’s fruit–the righteous behavior that genuine faith always produces.

Salvation is obtained by faith not by works!

As Isiah 64:6 states, “…And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” They can never pay for our sins!
Hebrews 9:22 states, “…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”
Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

It cannot be clearer!* *