J
John1717
Guest
The point is that in this passage Paul is not refering to baptism!
- Status
D
dennisknapp
Guest
Salvation is obtained by faith not by works!
As Isiah 64:6 states, “…And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” They can never pay for our sins!
Hebrews 9:22 states, “…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”
Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
It cannot be clearer!*
*Where exactly is “works” and “fruit” interchangable in James? Does James even use the word “fruits?”
E
exrc
Guest
Thanks! they are a stiff necked bunch indeed! As soon as I remind them that no one in the old test. was water baptized, they disappear quick.You seem to have your hands full. Need some help?
God bless you my brother!
Love Dan!
E
exrc
Guest
Church Militant:
C
Church_Militant
Guest
James 2:14 states, "…if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" this is just your translation, it means the same thing…that faith alone that does not show itself by deeds of love is not real faith and is dead, dead, dead…
James 2:24 states*,“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone*.” Now contrast this passage with the following:
Ephesians 2:8-9 - not the point at at all…NO one here will tell you that we are saved by our works alone. if you think that then you’ve been VERY seriously misled about what we really do believe. please read this and come back and let’s hit this again…
catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp
The point is that we are justified by faith but that faith must be alive! The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it. Whoever said we teach such rubish? No Catholic that has a clue about his faith would ever say that we are under the OT law…
James is not at odds with Paul.
Catholics would never say that they were!
Salvation is obtained by faith not by works! Catholics would never say that it was, but unless our works are obedient to commands of Christ, (“Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?”) then we have not demonstrated that we really believe now have we?
As Isiah 64:6 states, “…And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” They can never pay for our sins!
We never said that they could! Hebrews 9:22 states, “…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”
Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
It cannot be clearer!*
Well since you seem to think that a person’s deeds have no bearing upon their judgement by God, let’s have a look at another passage about this very thing. My point here is that you do not understand what Catholicism really says about this topic and seem to (erroneously) imply that we seek to earn or salvation. also that you discount the importance of the things we do, yet this passage declares something else completely.
The passage is Matthew 25:31-46:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
To quote you from your post above.
It cannot be clearer!**
Pax vobiscum
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Does this say that we all DRINK the same spirit? How do we drink the spirit of God?
I equally resent your willingness to lead people to a false gospel of works! SHOW ME WHERE YOU GET THIS ALLEGATION FROM ! SHOW ME THE ACTUAL CATHOLIC TEXT THAT SAYS THIS? **You can’t! Because it simply does not exist. Why? BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A CATHOLIC TEACHING! When you can come back and show us all that our Church really says such a ludicrous thing then maybe we will listen, but you stiff–necked, hate-filled, unkind, and unloving “Christians” don’t deserve a hearing. Not when you start from a mistaken premiss and then attack people who would NEVER do this same sort of behaviour to you or yours. I’M not the one misleading people…YOU ARE.
**
You talk a lot but you still speak from ignorance…You DO NOT have a clue what you’re talking about when you talk about Catholicism.
As for 1st Timothy 4…That’s too easy…I’m not the one spouting new doctrines that just came into existence some 487 years ago.
D
dcdurel
Guest
I think you are confused by works of the law of Moses and works of the law of Christ, that is, obeying the Gospel.
St Paul was criticizing those Christians who said that following the law of Moses was still necessary (works of the law). Of course, it wasn’t. Once a Jew became a Christian he was no longer under the law of Moses. Thus he didn’t have to follow the Jewish ceremonial laws, such as Sabbath worship, being circumcised, following Jewish feast days. Thus, if a Christian followed the ceremonial works of the law of Moses, (such as circumcision) then he was NOT obeying God and thus was not being justified. He was working on his own.
Once a Jew became a Christian he was under the law of Christ. Thus, he must do good works. When Christians obey Jesus and follow His teachings as taught by His Church then they receive more of the grace which Jesus merited by His death on the Cross. And this grace justifies us even more. Thus, salvation is through Jesus who merited the grace of salvation, which we receive by faith and works. By works, we mean obeying God’s teachings.
That is why the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit says
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
faith alone.
In this case the bible is referring to obedience to God when it refers to works.
When St. Paul says we are justified by faith, apart from works of the law, he is NOT referring to works done out of obedience. Because Christians were never under the law of Moses and never will be under the law of Moses. In other words, if a Christian believes it is necessary to be circumcised and follow the Jewish ceremonial laws, then he is not doing it out of faith and obedience to God. Thus, he cannot be justified by following the ceremonial rituals of the law of Moses (works of the law).
But when a Christian obeys the law of Christ, the Gospel, as taught by His Church, then he receives more of the grace of salvation that Jesus merited by the shedding of His blood. And this grace is what justifies us. Thus as the bible says,
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
faith alone.
This has always been the teaching of Christianity.
I hope this helps.**
**
E
exrc
Guest
Church Militant:
exrc:
by Or with; or in] one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Does this say that we all DRINK the same spirit? How do we drink the spirit of God? We drink the living water, by believing the one who he (God) has sent. Very good! you are starting to understand now!
CCC 2027 ,that was easy!**
** Well, my angry friend, it sounds like you are the one with the anger problem. That’s O.K. I love you anyway!
What about the O.T. ? Where are people saved by sacraments, or anything but faith? I know you won’t give me a rational answer because you don’t have one. When will you realize you are misguided? Hopefully before it is too late.
Cop out.
May the veil be lifted from your eyes my friend!!
In love exrc
C
Church_Militant
Guest
exrc,
I’m not angry…just honest with you…
Your answer about drinking the Spirit, makes no scriptural sense, since the living water passage you refer to is about something else altogether… your interpretation would only be reasonable if you take that verse out of the context of all the rest of the NT.(as you just did…)
You know what really does bug me about you and your evangelistic friends is your misuse of this forum. If one of us went into a non-Catholic forum with the same type of anti-rhetoric you spout all the time, we’d be suspended or banned before the first post could get entered good. In fact some of us have been tossed off boards for posting legitimate answers with a lot less heat than you come on with. Yet the folks here at CA are a lot more tolerant. You should respect that in the tone of your posts…Just because we don’t believe the way YOU do does not mean we’re going to hell as you keep telling us. Fortunately you are not God though (as everyone who has read your posts and threads will readily atest) you judge us (Matthew 7:7) and condemn us as if you are. I won’t do that…because I know better.
As to your reference to CCC 2027: (which as I suspected you take from the “in brief” section and out of it’s context,) it says
2027
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
You would’ve been better served to have quoted the entire in brief section, like this…since it better clarifies what it means. So I will right here.
IN BRIEF
2017
The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018
Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
2021
Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022
The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023
Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024
Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025
We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
2026
The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028
“All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).
2029
“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mt 16:24).
For even better understanding, one really should back up into the chapter that that is all from, as I am doing in my following post.
I’m not angry…just honest with you…
Your answer about drinking the Spirit, makes no scriptural sense, since the living water passage you refer to is about something else altogether… your interpretation would only be reasonable if you take that verse out of the context of all the rest of the NT.(as you just did…)
You know what really does bug me about you and your evangelistic friends is your misuse of this forum. If one of us went into a non-Catholic forum with the same type of anti-rhetoric you spout all the time, we’d be suspended or banned before the first post could get entered good. In fact some of us have been tossed off boards for posting legitimate answers with a lot less heat than you come on with. Yet the folks here at CA are a lot more tolerant. You should respect that in the tone of your posts…Just because we don’t believe the way YOU do does not mean we’re going to hell as you keep telling us. Fortunately you are not God though (as everyone who has read your posts and threads will readily atest) you judge us (Matthew 7:7) and condemn us as if you are. I won’t do that…because I know better.
As to your reference to CCC 2027: (which as I suspected you take from the “in brief” section and out of it’s context,) it says
2027
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
You would’ve been better served to have quoted the entire in brief section, like this…since it better clarifies what it means. So I will right here.
IN BRIEF
2017
The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018
Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
2021
Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022
The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023
Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024
Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025
We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
2026
The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028
“All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).
2029
“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mt 16:24).
For even better understanding, one really should back up into the chapter that that is all from, as I am doing in my following post.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
cont’d
This section on merit clarifies the Catholic position and shows that we do not believe that we work our way into heaven:
III. Merit
2006
The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.
2007
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009
Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62
2010
Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011
The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
IV. Christian Holiness
2012
"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64
cont’d
This section on merit clarifies the Catholic position and shows that we do not believe that we work our way into heaven:
III. Merit
Code:
You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.
2007
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009
Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62
2010
Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011
The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
Code:
After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.632012
"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64
cont’d
C
Church_Militant
Guest
2013
"All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66
2014
Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments—“the holy mysteries”—and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.
2015
The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:
2016
The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71
Footnotes
Roman Missal, Prefatio I de Sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the “Doctor of grace,” St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.
St. Thérèse of Lisieux, “Act of Offering” in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.
Rom 8:28-30.
LG 40 § 2.
Mt 5:48.
LG 40 § 2.
Cf. 2 Tim 4.
St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. in Cant. 8: PG 44, 941C.
Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576.
Rev 21:2.
As you can all see, it makes a great deal more sense when taken in context…and (unlike the alegation above ) proves to be a beautifully scriptural explanation of precisely what the Catholic Church really believes about this topic)
Thank you exrc…for making me do my homework and allowing me to clarify what we really do believe about how our works fit into the plan of salvation and their part in the “born again” process.
In spite of our differences, you are in all my prayers and hard as I find it…I do love you.
Pax vobiscum
"All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66
Code:
In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments—“the holy mysteries”—and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.
2015
The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:
Code:
He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71
Footnotes
Roman Missal, Prefatio I de Sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the “Doctor of grace,” St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.
St. Thérèse of Lisieux, “Act of Offering” in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.
Rom 8:28-30.
LG 40 § 2.
Mt 5:48.
LG 40 § 2.
Cf. 2 Tim 4.
St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. in Cant. 8: PG 44, 941C.
Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576.
Rev 21:2.
As you can all see, it makes a great deal more sense when taken in context…and (unlike the alegation above ) proves to be a beautifully scriptural explanation of precisely what the Catholic Church really believes about this topic)
Thank you exrc…for making me do my homework and allowing me to clarify what we really do believe about how our works fit into the plan of salvation and their part in the “born again” process.
In spite of our differences, you are in all my prayers and hard as I find it…I do love you.
Pax vobiscum
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Amen! And that blood is applied to us personally in water baptism.
In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I must acknowledge that I can do nothing to earn my salvation nor contribute anything to it. It’s all of God and none of me.Hi Everyone,
I think that to be “Born Again” means that you have repented of your sins and have accepted Gods gift of salvation by trusting in Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
Hi John!
How have you come to understand that this is what “born again” means? Scripture doesn’t seem to indicate anything like that.
Amen! We can’t earn our salvation but to claim the need to repent and accept in one breath and that it’s none of you and all of God in the next is contradictory. If one does not offer the contirbution of repentence and acceptence is one still saved?
In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi John!I’ve read most of the posts so I think I’m ready to comment.
I see that many of you believe that to be “Born Again” requires water baptism but I must respectfully disagree.
John 3:3 states, "…no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
V 5: "…no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
V 6: *"**Flesh ***gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
Now look at John 1: 12-13: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God – children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God."
John 3:5 contrasts physical birth to spiritual birth. This is consistent with John 1:12-13 which repeats the contrast – physical birth to spiritual birth. It has nothing to do with baptism!
Now some would appeal to Mark 16:16 in support of baptism however, this too is not the case.
Mark 16: 15-16 states, " He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Notice that it is unbelief that brings damnation, not a lack of being baptized! When someone rejects the gospel, refusing to believe it, that person is damned. It is not baptism that saves but the gospel.
Look at 1 Cor.15:1 - 2 which states, "…I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved…"
Again you can see that the gospel saves you not baptism! This is not to say that baptism is not important. It should be the first act of obedience to God following a person’s conversion to Christ. But even though we should obey God and get baptized, we must not forget that our faith in Christ is what saves us(Acts 16:31; John 3:16), not baptism! Baptism is basically a public profession of faith. It says to the whole world, "I’m a believer in Christ and have identified my life with Him.
I hope this is helpful.
Unfortunately, this particular spin on scripture is relatively new on the Christian scene, not even something espoused by the original Reformers and is nowhere to be found in any of the early Christian writings. I echo the challange made earlier for someone to provide evidence that this idea was accepted by anyone at all prior to the Reformation.
In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi John!You quote Titus 3:5 which states, *“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” *
In this verse the Greek word for baptism (baptizo) is not used. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism! Paul refers to “*washing of regeneration” (Greek loutrou) *to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation. The fact that this is a *“washing of regeneration” *indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God’s mercy.
You’re right, Paul didn’t use the word “baptise” he used the word “bath” or “wash” which is a direct reference to water baptism. What you are claiming here would have been foreign to the Reformers.
In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Salvation is obtained by faith not by works!
As Isiah 64:6 states, “…And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” They can never pay for our sins!
Hebrews 9:22 states, “…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”
Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
It cannot be clearer!*
*Hi John!
We are not saved by works alone, nor are we saved by faith alone. The two word together. In baptism we die with Christ and are raised to new life (Romans 6:3-4). God’s grace is poured into our souls and we are born again, a new creation. At some point in our lives we must acknowledge that there is no salvation apart from Christ (accept him as Savior) and live our lives according to his will (accept him as our Lord). Apart from faith our works are like filthy rags. Apart from works (the obedience of faith) our faith is dead. The two work together and are completed by the other. Faith is to be lived, not simply verbally professed.
“Faith alone” is not only not found in scripture, it contradicts scripture.
Again, what you are claiming is relatively new teaching, not to be found anywhere prior to the Reformation. It was an extreme reaction to the abuse of Indulgences. In so doing the Reformers threw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and changed 1500 year old doctrine in the process.
In Christ,
Nancy
E
exrc
Guest
Church Militant:
E
exrc
Guest
Nancy,Hi John!
You’re right, Paul didn’t use the word “baptise” he used the word “bath” or “wash” which is a direct reference to water baptism. What you are claiming here would have been foreign to the Reformers.
In Christ,
Nancy
If what you say is true, then everyone in the O.T. is going to hell. It is as simple as just that. Is that what you are inferring?
I know you want to believe what the rcc teaches, but realize that they could be sincerely wrong.I have given you enough information to help you make the correct choice. Please listen to the truth, I cannot be much clearer.
Love Dan!
F
Fiat
Guest
Dear exrc:
The blood of Our Lord is what saves us, whether under the Old Covenant or the New. What’s your point here?
In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
The blood of Our Lord is what saves us, whether under the Old Covenant or the New. What’s your point here?
In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
J
John1717
Guest
Amen! We can’t earn our salvation but to claim the need to repent and accept in one breath and that it’s none of you and all of God in the next is contradictory. If one does not offer the contirbution of repentence and acceptence is one still saved?
In Christ,
Nancy
I think that you are confused as to what the term repentance means. Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind from any understanding of God and His plan of redemption that does not conform to the truth of the Scriptures. It comes from a fear and love of God that is coupled with sorrow for sins committed against Him. Evidence of genuine faith and repentance is when one turns from a life independent of god to a life dependent upon Him. There is no contradiction!
:tiphat:
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