Depressed About Catholic Church

[Tis_Bearself]

The FEW?!
There are 300 priests listed in the Pennsylvania report alone . 300 isn’t a few.

The Pennsylvania report covered many decades. Compared to the total number of priests over all those decades, the number was relatively small, and comparable to the total percentage of abusers in society generally over that time.

Also, I don’t skip meat on Friday because a priest is telling me to skip it. I skip it because I love Jesus and am doing it for him. In fact sometimes I might wish to do more for him than whatever the priest is saying. It’s a bit odd that you’d even bring that up, like the priests are dictating marching orders to us. If “Your eminence” is sinful then that’s all the more reason for us to try to be better people, as you said, and we should be doing that without “Your eminence” even telling us to do that.

I’m sorry your wife was affected by this, but I also think that as awful as these scandals are, there’s a lesson in them for us, namely that the reason why we’re Catholic is NOT because of the parish priest or the bishop. It’s because of the High Priest, Jesus Christ.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

To sum up my concerns, the Church is suppose to be heaven on earth

Where did you get that impression?

The Church Militant here on earth is a body of fallible, sinful people trying to work, sweat and claw their way to Heaven and often falling down on the rocky road. It’s never going to be perfect and it’s never going to be heavenly.

It is not “heaven on earth”. The only little bit of “heaven” we get is when we receive Jesus in the Eucharist or otherwise interact with our God.

You may want to rethink your ideas about the Church, as if you keep expecting it to be “heaven on earth” it is going to keep falling short of the mark.

 

[AlNg]

Apparently for 2018 there are 37,302 diocesan and religious-order priests in the United States.

According to this news article from January this year more than a 1,000 have been accused of child sex abuse in the US.

So that leaves roughly 36,000 good and holy men in the priesthood .

There is another problem because it has been reported that among those who did not “abuse” anyone, there are those who have covered up the scandals by not reporting them, even though they knew what was going on.

 

[Rob2]

Depressed about the Catholic Church ?

If there is any depression about the Catholic Church it is about that part of it I know best which fails lamentably to live up to the call of the Gospel .

I see that part of the Church in the mirror every morning when I am shaving .

 

[CRV]

Why yes, I have.

I’m glad to here that, as not everyone who considers doing so or does withhold their contributions, may have done so.

But as for the “innocent” parish, I get that.

At least you do.

I give my money to the Sisters of Notre Dame, who run schools and clinics for girls in India.

Very admirable.

But I personally would still contribute, but just half - simply out of consideration for the others I mentioned earlier. Obviously from what you’ve written you feel differently, but at the end of the day, each of us must do as we think is right.

Well, sorry, but I am going to tell you to pray in addition to any other action you may undertake. I believe in Divine Providence and that God does hear and answer our prayers. I think sometimes the power of prayer can be forgotten.

 

[Beryllos]

I’m not sure you got my point.

I get it all right. I simply don’t put my faith in money. One can’t rely on money to change attitudes or behavior.

 

[CRV]

There is another problem because it has been reported that among those who did not “abuse” anyone, there are those who have covered up the scandals by not reporting them, even though they knew what was going on.

That is true. But my focus was on illustrating that the number of priests who did commit abuse is in the minority when compared to those who didn’t/don’t, simply to illustrate as I’ve pointed out in my other posts in this thread, that it doesn’t justify one becoming depressed or disillusioned with the Church.

And with that said, I will not be repeating myself any further in this thread as I believe I’ve made myself & the point I was trying to make clear.

 

[PeterT]

TotusTuusForever:

What I have read in this thread is a lot of people trying to minimize the crimes, which honestly makes me have even less confidence in the explanations of the church about the abuse crisis. I’m just at a loss for words at this point. I feel like so many in the church just don’t get the severity of it all.

I agree, and that’s what bothers me, too. There should be absolutely no excuses—none of this nonsense about other religions, schools, etc. etc. etc. None of it matters. What matters is that priests, bishops, and even cardinals committed unspeakable acts and ruined lives. It’s absurd to say “well, it wasn’t 1,000, it was only 853…” If you use that argument, you just don’t get it. Some of them compounded it by various acts of blasphemy. Virtually none have been punished in any way. For decades it was all covered up. This simply shouldn’t happen. Zero tolerance. Zero.

“Virtually none have been punished in any way.”

Huh?

That’s a simply false statement. Many, but not all, have indeed been punished by the church and the civil criminal justice system. Many have served time in jail (though not all that should have).

And of course there should be zero tolerance and even today there still appears to be on-going cover ups which is morally repugnant. But to state that virtually none have been punished is way off base and false.

 

[fhansen]

You’re seeing the tip of the iceberg, while the rest demonstrates an incomparable degree of holiness and light residing in the Church down thru the centuries. The world would only be worse off without the Christian faith, proclaimed and lived out in the world by the Church.

Consider the vast amounts of time and money volunteered and donated in the name of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Orphanages, hospitals, the development of the university and lower educational systems, the preservation of learning in the dark ages and the later spreading of it, the promotion of and strides in arts and science, the pursuit of excellence in general, virtually placing altruism on the map, loving ones enemy rather than vanquishing him, offering light and hope to a pretty much meaningless and dark and hopeless world, giving reason and order to it all. All based on an ideal given to and passed on by the Church.

And while Church leaders should be held to a higher standard, the Church’s own teaching on original sin and its consequences virtually guarantee that impeccability will never be a human trait while on this earth. So, where it may apply a principle resides in Matt 23:2-3:
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

God ensures that the teachings are correct regardless of the weaknesses and limitations of the human vessels teaching them. In any case the Church recognizes these problems and so teaches thusly:

827 "Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled,’ knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."299 All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners.300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time.301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness:

The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.302

828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.303 "The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church’s history."304 Indeed, "holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal."305

 

[TotusTuusForever]

First of all, stop trying to shame me or making a valid point. Second, the holy priests don’t make up for that fact that evil priest existed under the guide of holy one. It doesn’t’ matter where else sexual abuse happens. The church should be the one place where it doesn’t happen. We all should be horrified, but people like you have an attitude of acquiescence towards the scandal. If you were the one raped and molested inside a church I think you might have a different attitude.

 

[TotusTuusForever]

No one on this thread has suggested that you leave the Church, far from it.

oh yeah?

You want to walk away from Christ and His Church because of evil men in the Church? Well I hope you aren’t expecting anything better out there separated from the grace of the Sacraments. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. That’s not contingent on how you feel about those in charge or not.

Sounds like an invitation to leave to me.
And for context, I never said I wanted to.

 

[TotusTuusForever]

I’m getting and education in how catholics deal with people having a crisis of faith from this thread.

1. shame them
2. tell them they are sinners
3. tell them to just forget about whats worrying them

No wonder people are leaving in droves.

"On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink.” [Romans 12:20]

I am still in the Church. I am still Catholic, but I was hoping that someone would be able to provide a theological argument on why God would allow this to happen. Instead, I have almost exclusively received ad hominem arguments.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yes. However, in any human organization there will be some who sin, some who commit crimes. It is not an excuse, it is simply reality.

We rejoice that the Church endures in truth and beauty in spite of every sinful, criminal act that has been committed by the humans in the Church.

 

[TotusTuusForever]

I agree. Except now the diocese are going bankrupt which essentially robs the poor of food and children of a catholic education.

 

[TheLittleLady]

To sum up my concerns, the Church is suppose to be heaven on earth,

I know you are hurting, however, Jesus did not say the Church is heaven on earth, the Church has never claimed such.

Perhaps some study would help?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

This sums it up well:

867 The Church is holy: the Most Holy God is her author; Christ, her bridegroom, gave himself up to make her holy; the Spirit of holiness gives her life. Since she still includes sinners, she is “the sinless one made up of sinners.” Her holiness shines in the saints; in Mary she is already all-holy.

How are the blessed and “holy” hands of priests doing such insanely horrible sins against their own flock?

God is not hindered by the sins of we humans.

People were led away from the Church by these questions back in the 4th Century. This grew into a heresy that had sweeping impact.

Donatism | Catholic Answers Magazine

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05121a.htm

 

[jeannetherese]

From Alma RedemptorisMater

“You want to walk away from Christ and His Church because of evil men in the Church? Well I hope you aren’t expecting anything better out there separated from the grace of the Sacraments. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. That’s not contingent on how you feel about those in charge or not.”
It is a hard challenge and i cannot say that I have responded as well as I ought. Figuring out how to love and forgive abusers, while also providing love support for victims and also creating safeguards to help prevent future abuse is a tremendous undertaking.
And I saw the final sentence as linking the verse from Saint Matthew to a reminder that, even in the face of this situation, we need to keep our eyes on the prize, we must stay in the Church God has given us and not succumb to the temptation to turn away. This also may be read as light of additional verses in the gospel of Matthew.

I wonder if you might not accidentaly be misreading AlmaRedemptorisMater? I came to a different understanding when I read his or her post. Alma begins with a check in about whether you might be considering leaving the church over this scandal and then gives a “don’t expect the grass to be greener on the other side of the fence” response.
“Let your yes be yes and your no be no” is taken directly from the Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew and is drawn from the discussion of loving your enemies. I read it as a reminder of keeping our commitments to Christ and His Church even in the face of this terrible situation. In addition, we are called to love those who harm us and others and pray for those who persecute us. Thinking of this, I thought of the victimizers and also the media pundits and others in society who are attacking the Church; all are in need of prayer.

 

[jeannetherese]

I am still in the Church. I am still Catholic, but I was hoping that someone would be able to provide a theological argument on why God would allow this.
I think the question you raise might be that of the problem of evil.
Below are the first paragraphs of a discussion of this problem and a link to the article so that you may continue rreading.
May God bless you.
jt

The Problem of Evil](http://www.peterkreeft.com/images/writings/evil-hitler.jpg)​

The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God.

When Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote his great Summa Theologica, he could find only two objections to the existence of God, even though he tried to list at least three objections to every one of the thousands of theses he tried to prove in that great work. One of the two objections is the apparent ability of natural science to explain everything in our experience without God; and the other is the problem of evil.

More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of evil than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it’s not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it. That’s why the Book of Job is so arresting.

The problem can be stated very simply: If God is so good, why is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

 

[otjm]

I don’t recall saying all baptized Catholics kill themselves after abuse, so I have no idea why you would reply as such. Neither did I say most, or a large number did this.

You are the one who took on the attorneys and smeared them. I was replying that you are sadly, sadly mistaken in your smearing. The attorneys brought this to the attention of the Bishops and administration of the various dioceses in a way they could not duck or hide or deny. My comment about some abused individuals committing suicide is simply to comment on how deeply many, if not most abuse victims have been harmed.

As to where where the parents - since you bring this up, perhaps you can tell us.

 

[otjm]

It also brings into stark focus the damage that has been done by sexual abuse, and how irresponsible the bishops in the past were.

My archdiocese was, I think the first to go bankrupt. No Catholic schools closed as a result of it. Niether were the poor robbed of food, as that is provided by the various parishes, not the Archdiocese. Catholic Charities was not shut down.

The bankruptcy filing provided a means for the Court to proportion out the money the Archdiocese had among the victims who sued, so that some were not left out because it went to the first to sue.

 

[on_the_hill]

For every child or teenager who has been abused…tell me where was the parent? How many parents have allowed their children to be alone without ever questioning where they are, who are they with and what’s going on.

The parents are at fault, then? The parents who negligently their sons go into the sacristy to prepare for Mass? The parents who negligently let their daughters meet privately with a priest during the Sacrament of Penance?

The parents who, for decade upon decade upon century upon millennia had been brought up in a culture that implicitly trusted the priest as in persona Christi?

These are the parents who didn’t question allowing their children to be alone with ordained men of the Church.