Design

[Charlemagne_III]

And now you make light of the suffering of the mentally ill.

Still, as long as you feel good about yourself.

Just curious. Why all the sarcasm? One post after another. Do you never ask yourself?

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed, Jesus experienced his own major depression in the Garden of Gethsemane.

For that he did not die and go to hell for the greater good.

He had a better design. I thought Baptists knew that?

The word “depression” leaves a loophole for the hypercritical!

 

[tonyrey]

Scanning a bit of the end here. Just to rehash repentance necessity. I was just talking about this with one of my kids yesterday.

We were analyzing if someone might be in heaven who did not repent. We concluded ‘no’ per the info available to us.

An act of repentance is a turning toward God.

Pride is what would exist in a person unwilling to do so.

There isn’t a human, save 2, who are not sinners.

By definition of salvation for sinners, repentance is necessary. Form and timing is as variable as each person.

Though form is variable because of life and how it unfolds differently per person, many teachings point to grace (forgiveness / absolution) gifts given through certain specific forms of repentance.

Those forms are practiced in the CC as sacraments.

If God provided the sacraments - People who know of the specific forms in the CC and reject them / do not turn toward God through their use, are not just - not repenting, but unfortunately filling with pride.

Need to be careful and honest with ourselves as God knows what each person knows.

Those who do not know of God’s ‘ordinary forms’ through the CC, may not have learned about people as ‘sinners’ thus have a higher probability of repenting at judgement, once informed.

For people on earth that know they are sinners, it should be a short walk to consider God works in our nature and has setup ordinary forms. It’s reasonable. God wouldn’t come and save sinners from their sins and not leave behind instruction. That’s the whole point of Pentecost. That the first teachers would recall all they have been taught and put it into practice. You don’t practice randomness, you practice specifics, given form(s).

:thumbsup:1 There are advantages in belonging to the Catholic Church rather than relying entirely on one’s own judgment…

 

[tonyrey]

Only legalists like the Pharisees and Puritans believe rules and laws are more important than love and compassion… Of course even though our conscience is our ultimate authority we shouldn’t go to the other extreme and believe we alone decide what’s right and wrong. Otherwise one falls into the trap of egolatry, i.e. worshipping one’s own judgment.- which is a symptom of vanity and intellectual pride.

There are many people who don’t believe it is necessary to repent but it doesn’t follow that they will automatically go to hell… Only God knows our ultimate disposition.

BTW Not all statements in the Catechism apply to non-Catholics.

 

[tonyrey]

Why would anyone do that?

Post 853:

Hell has its compensations; otherwise no one would opt for it! To have one’s own kingdom and absolute independence is a highly attractive temptation but it has its drawbacks because it entails isolation and frustration. Even in this world we see the consequences of the insatiable lust for power which inevitably ends in disaster and misery. Egoism and pride lead to a fool’s paradise which is short-lived (on earth)…

 

[Bradski]

There are many people who don’t believe it is necessary to repent but it doesn’t follow that they will automatically go to hell… Only God knows our ultimate disposition.

BTW Not all statements in the Catechism apply to non-Catholics.

The catechism SPECIFICALLY says that you will go to hell if you don’t repent.

But now you suggest that that doesn’t apply to non-Catholics. Which gives us the rather weird concept that everyone except Catholics could be saved without repenting, yet all Cathołics will definately go to hell.

Funny old system.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But now you suggest that that doesn’t apply to non-Catholics. Which gives us the rather weird concept that everyone except Catholics could be saved without repenting, yet all Cathołics will definately go to hell.

I didn’t hear him say that. Curious that you did. Looking for a loophole?

 

[Bradski]

I didn’t hear him say that. Curious that you did. Looking for a loophole?

We are talking about what will send you to hell and I have been pointing out that the catechism requires both repentance AND forgiveness. I think one could consider the following statement to be applicable to that:

BTW Not all statements in the Catechism apply to non-Catholics.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

We are talking about what will send you to hell and I have been pointing out that the catechism requires both repentance AND forgiveness. I think one could consider the following statement to be applicable to that:

The Catholic church teaches that dying in mortal sin without repenting is fatal. The atheist, who is outside the Church, and who dies in mortal sin and without repenting, is doomed by his own choice, not by God’s.

The atheist who dies repenting his atheism, so long as he is sincere about repenting ALL his sins, may well be saved.

Only God knows what is in our hearts, and only God judges.

But judgment will come; for some, like Christopher Hitchens, sooner than they thought.

 

[Bradski]

The Catholic church teaches that dying in mortal sin without repenting is fatal.

Indeed. So the father who blasphemes God and does not repent is bound for hell. But the man who raped and murdered his family, if he honestly repents on his death bed can avoid it. Great system, Charles. Justice for all, eh?

But Vonsalza has a get-out-of-jail card. He seems to think that if you don’t repent you can still avoid punishment.

Upon judgement, should the lord decide to save someone by non-sacramental means, He can.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Indeed. So the father who blasphemes God and does not repent is bound for hell. But the man who raped and murdered his family, if he honestly repents on his death bed can avoid it. Great system, Charles. Justice for all, eh?

Yes, a great system, if we follow Him.

If out of rebellious and hateful pride, such as Satan’s, we refuse to obey Him, not so great a system.

It may well be that Satan hates God, but I suppose he hates you and me even more.

 

[inocente]

Just curious. Why all the sarcasm? One post after another. Do you never ask yourself?

I’m not being sarcastic. I’m pointing out that even with only the few design fans on this thread, each of you has his own individual chaotically improvised morality. That’s not being sarcastic. That’s just an empirical observation.

 

[inocente]

The Catholic church teaches that dying in mortal sin without repenting is fatal. The atheist, who is outside the Church, and who dies in mortal sin and without repenting, is doomed by his own choice, not by God’s.

The atheist who dies repenting his atheism, so long as he is sincere about repenting ALL his sins, may well be saved.

Only God knows what is in our hearts, and only God judges.

But judgment will come; for some, like Christopher Hitchens, sooner than they thought.

Another bit of chaos Charles. In your first two paragraphs you lay down rules about who goes to hell. Then in the third you say only God judges. Which is it? Is God bound by your rules or not? A boy gets raped by a priest/minister (any religion) and as a result grows up atheist. Is he “doomed by his own choice” as you say? Punished, not just for a trillion years but for all eternity? For being raped? Or is he a deserved exception to your rules?

Now come on you guys, admit it, you’re just extemporizing aren’t you?

 

[tonyrey]

We are talking about what will send you to hell and I have been pointing out that the catechism requires both repentance AND forgiveness. I think one could consider the following statement to be applicable to that:

There are many people who don’t believe it is necessary to repent but it doesn’t follow that they will automatically go to hell… Only God knows our ultimate disposition.

BTW Not all statements in the Catechism apply to non-Catholics.There are many people who don’t believe it is necessary to repent but it doesn’t follow that they will automatically go to hell… Only God knows our ultimate disposition.

BTW Not all statements in the Catechism apply to non-Catholics.
The catechism SPECIFICALLY says that you will go to hell if you don’t repent.

But now you suggest that that doesn’t apply to non-Catholics. Which gives us the rather weird concept that everyone except Catholics could be saved without repenting, yet all Cathołics will definately go to hell.

Funny old system.

It only seems “funny” to those who make no allowance for human ignorance. Nor is there any reason to believe all Cathołics will definitely go to hell given that they are fully aware of the consequences of their decision after they die. It is a losing battle to attempt to make out God is a harsh Judge - rather than a loving Father - who.condemns His creatures to eternal torture at the slightest pretext in a futile attempt to prove Christianity is an infantile fantasy…

 

[Aloysium]

I think extemporizing is great fun - jazz in print. It may sound a bit chaotic to the untrained ear, but there is beauty in the abstract creativity.

Holocausts and pedophiles - evils that we do and that haunt the modern world.

I would imagine the priest abusing the child was he himself abused, perhaps very young, attending a seminary school, sent away from home, in need of guidance, discipline and affection. Perhaps it was an uncle, a teacher, a stepfather, a father who broke his spirit, who tore him in half. And, in that brokenness, wanting a kick of power and pleasure, all the while seeking a connection with the lost innocence, which he now also wants to destroy, he repeats the orginal scene by which evil entered his soul. With the lack of inner cohesion, of control and in the chaos, abated in the domination of another, the lust grows with each molestation. From demon to penitent, now flagellating himself with guilt-driven hate, he bounces, floundering, the scene of a battle between goodness and evil, each of him unable to surrender to the other. Heaven holds its breath. “Lead us not into temptation”, words detested by one who would want yet more, are they to be murmured reaching out to the only One who can help? How else can a person reliquish that which they so desperately desire?

It is only in Love that we find a cure. At some point there has to be concern for those whom we have harmed. Compassion must grow within us, and the desire to reconcile, to make up for the evil we bring into the world. When we cannot undo what has been done, we must repent. It is only through and in Christ that we are saved from death’s clutches. We do not spend a thousand, a billion, a trillion years in hell. At the end of change, when our time is up to be what we will, having chosen which master we serve, we are who we are eternally, in the now of the totality our existence. But, it is not about ourselves, but of how we connect with our neighbours, and through that, God, who is Love itself.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m not being sarcastic. I’m pointing out that even with only the few design fans on this thread, each of you has his own individual chaotically improvised morality. QUOTE]

You have just defined Protestantism IN GENERAL.

 

[tonyrey]

It only seems “funny” to those who make no allowance for human ignorance. Nor is there any reason to believe all Cathołics will definitely go to hell given that they are fully aware of the consequences of their decision after they die. It is a losing battle to attempt to make out God is a harsh Judge - rather than a loving Father - who.condemns His creatures to eternal torture at the slightest pretext in a futile attempt to prove Christianity is an infantile fantasy…

Of course human ignorance in this context is rarely culpable because most people have never read the Catholic Catechism.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Another bit of chaos Charles. In your first two paragraphs you lay down rules about who goes to hell. Then in the third you say only God judges. Which is it? Is God bound by your rules or not? A boy gets raped by a priest/minister (any religion) and as a result grows up atheist. Is he “doomed by his own choice” as you say? Punished, not just for a trillion years but for all eternity? For being raped? Or is he a deserved exception to your rules?

Now come on you guys, admit it, you’re just extemporizing aren’t you?

Every wounded soul is given a chance by God to be healed. Some choose not to be healed. But some do. What would you say for those who do? That they also had no choice?

I take it that as a Baptist you do believe in free will, conversion, and redemption.

Am I wrong?

Are those who are wounded forever doomed without a choice in the matter?

 

[tonyrey]

:

I think extemporizing is great fun - jazz in print. It may sound a bit chaotic to the untrained ear, but there is beauty in the abstract creativity.

Holocausts and pedophiles - evils that we do and that haunt the modern world.

I would imagine the priest abusing the child was he himself abused, perhaps very young, attending a seminary school, sent away from home, in need of guidance, discipline and affection. Perhaps it was an uncle, a teacher, a stepfather, a father who broke his spirit, who tore him in half. And, in that brokenness, wanting a kick of power and pleasure, all the while seeking a connection with the lost innocence, which he now also wants to destroy, he repeats the orginal scene by which evil entered his soul. With the lack of inner cohesion, of control and in the chaos, abated in the domination of another, the lust grows with each molestation. From demon to penitent, now flagellating himself with guilt-driven hate, he bounces, floundering, the scene of a battle between goodness and evil, each of him unable to surrender to the other. Heaven holds its breath. “Lead us not into temptation”, words detested by one who would want yet more, are they to be murmured reaching out to the only One who can help? How else can a person reliquish that which they so desperately desire?

It is only in Love that we find a cure. At some point there has to be concern for those whom we have harmed. Compassion must grow within us, and the desire to reconcile, to make up for the evil we bring into the world. When we cannot undo what has been done, we must repent. It is only through and in Christ that we are saved from death’s clutches. We do not spend a thousand, a billion, a trillion years in hell. At the end of change, when our time is up to be what we will, having chosen which master we serve, we are who we are eternally, in the now of the totality our existence. But, it is not about ourselves, but of how we connect with our neighbours, and through that, God, who is Love itself.

Bravo! It’s surprising how rarely it has been mentioned on this thread. Anyone would think Design is a cold, intellectual exercise in planning the universe instead of an expression of our Father’s infinite love for us. The precious gift of life seems to be taken for granted without being appreciated as the supreme blessing it really is. It was an atheist, Thomas Nagel, who pointed out life’s immense value consists in being a source of opportunities. What he didn’t mention is the absurdity of deriving immensely valuable and purposeful entities with a capacity for insight, self-control and spiritual development from fortuitous combinations of inanimate, purposeless atomic particles.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

:
Bravo! It’s surprising how rarely it has been mentioned on this thread. Anyone would think Design is a cold, intellectual exercise in planning the universe instead of an expression of our Father’s infinite love for us. The precious gift of life seems to be taken for granted without being appreciated as the supreme blessing it really is. It was an atheist, Thomas Nagel, who pointed out life’s immense value consists in being a source of opportunities. What he didn’t mention is the absurdity of deriving immensely valuable and purposeful entities with a capacity for insight, self-control and spiritual development from fortuitous combinations of inanimate, purposeless atomic particles.