Devotion to Mary

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mercygate:
Oi. This devotional extravaganza was exactly the sort of thing that prompted Newman to make a distinction between “devotion” and “doctrine” when it comes to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Now, I’m a Convert, so count my testimony as worthless, but THIS thing is, to my mind, utterly grotesque. Whatever the lofty message it is trying to project (and you can see that the message is perfectly orthodox), gets swamped by the bathos.

In his Apologia pro Vita Sua, Newman writes:

“. . . such passages as are found in the works of Italian Authors were not acceptable to every part of the Catholic world. Such devotional manifestations in honour of Our Lady had been my great crux as regards Catholicism; I say frankly, I do not fully enter into them now; I trust I do not love her the less, because I cannot enter into them. They may be fully explained and defended, but sentiment and taste do not run with logic; they are suitable for Italy, but they are not suitable for England.”
MercyGate when Jesus what taken to the temple simeon told her a sword would pierce her heart.This is the seven sorrows of Mary and my purpose for pasing it is to try to encourage Edwin to see something besides someone God used like a mean unloving dictator.It is a perfectly approved devotion.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
MercyGate when Jesus what taken to the temple simeon told her a sword would pierce her heart.This is the seven sorrows of Mary and my purpose for pasing it is to try to encourage Edwin to see something besides someone God used like a mean unloving dictator.It is a perfectly approved devotion.
Right, Lisa. I agree. You’ll see that I stated that the point being made by that tableau was perfectly orthodox. It’s still (to my WASC cultural perspective) an unspeakably grotesque representation.
 
MercyGate when Jesus what taken to the temple simeon told her a sword would pierce her heart.This is the seven sorrows of Mary and my purpose for pasing it is to try to encourage Edwin to see something besides someone God used like a mean unloving dictator.It is a perfectly approved devotion.
Those who have lost a child of their own will likely empathise with the sight of Mary standing there with swords in her heart.
 
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Lorarose:
Those who have lost a child of their own will likely empathise with the sight of Mary standing there with swords in her heart.
Yes you are right.Sometimes that is the only way they can comprehend the sorrow.:nope:
 
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Lorarose:
In the OT and NT God sent angels to appear to people.

I don’t hear people say “those darn angels are sneaking out of heaven without God looking and trying to steal his thunder! They’re trying to cash in on his glory!”

When Jesus was transfigured, Moses and Elijah appeared beside him.
Do we hear people say “Can you believe Moses and Elijah would promote themselves by placing themselves next to Jesus during his moment of glory?”

Today we see many christians from all denominations claim they have been “touched” by an angel.
It seems to always be a good thing…I don’t hear anyone say “what was that angel DOING? Was that angel a self promoter?”

And then there is Mary…oh boy.
No way would God EVER have a reason to send Mary for any work He may have.
Just because He has sent others at other times does NOT mean He would EVER send Mary.
No, no,no …if Mary is “appearing” it means she MUST be a self promoting glory thief!​

Y’know? When I see this type of attitude I see 2 things.
First I see chauvenism.

Second…I see God being put in a box. I see so called “christians” claiming they fully understand God’s plan and the tactics He uses.
They restrict the possiblities to only those they choose to accept - and if God steps out of that self imposed box they rebel.
well said; Edwin, you still hasn’t replied to my post others’ posts. Please explain how Mary doing wonders is stealing God’s glory while the apostles doing miracles and wonders recorded in the Scripture, as well as the prophets and angels, deemed NOT stealing God’s glory. I see double standard here!
 
Axion said:
The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

V. Lord, have mercy on us.

R. Christ, have mercy on us.

V. Lord, have mercy on us. Christ hear us.

R. Christ, graciously hear us.

God, the Father of Heaven: – **Have mercy on us. **(repeat at end of each phrase.)
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world:
God, the Holy Spirit,
Holy Trinity, One God,

Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.

Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
Graciously hear us O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
Have mercy on us.

v. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

r. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray: Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, unto us Thy servants, that we may rejoice in continual health of mind and body; and, by the glorious intercession of blessed Mary ever Virgin, may be delivered from present sadness, and enter into the joy of Thine eternal gladness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

ORDINARY TIME:

I. Grant, we beseech you, almighty God,
that we, your faithful,
who rejoice in the name
and under the protection
of the most holy Virgin Mary,
may, by her loving intercession,
be delivered from all evils here on earth
and be made worthy to reach eternal glory
in the life to come.
Through Christ our Lord. AMEN

II. Lord God,
give to your people the joy
of continual health in mind and body.
With the prayers of the Virgin Mary to help us,
guide us through the sorrows of this life
to eternal happiness in the life to come.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

III. God of mercy,
give us strength.
rlay we who honor the memory
of tile Mother of God rise ahove our slus
and failings with the help of her prayers.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Your Son, who lives and reigns with you
and the lloly Spirit, one God, for ever
and ever. AMEN.

IV. Lord,
may the prayers of the Virgin Mary
bring us protection from danger
and freedom from sin
that we may come to tile joy of your peace.
We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ,
your Son, who lives and reigns with you
and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever
and ever. AMEN.

V. Lord,
as we honor the glorious memory of the
Virgin Mary, we ask that by the help of
her prayers we too may come to share
the fullness of your grace. Grant this
throug}l our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the lloly Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

VI. Lord Jesus Christ,
you chose the Virgin Mary to be your mother,
a worthy home in which to dwell.
By her prayers keep us from danger
and bring us to the joy of heaven,
where you live and reign with the Father and the
Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

Problems?

Not really I suppose. What you have given me here is exactly what I was referring to originally. In reading this, there is nothing I disagree with. It just kind of struck me though, how much “Mary” there is in our prayers. I suppose reading and hearing all the objections on Mary leads to questions in my head like I mentioned above. It’s true though, when you read this post, there really is nothing wrong with it.
 
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adstrinity:
Catholic Tom,

Do you come from a Protestant background? If so, this is such a hard concept to grasp (and, occasionally, I have issues with it as well) BECAUSE it is directly taught against in Protestant circles. We have been (and, forgive me if I am in error by this assumption) so conditioned & indoctrinated AGAINST this that the truth is that much more obscure. There is nothing wrong with a devotion to the Virgin. I shall pray that this becomes clear to you. I hope this helps you catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0204fea3.asp It’s been done throughout the ages. Fairly recently, it has been dismissed by some. PRAY to Jesus about it. Ask Him what’s the deal with it. He’ll guide you in the right direction.
Hi…I do not have a protestant background, but I have many protestant friends and the internet presents a lot of confusing ideas. As a Catholic, I don’t have a real issue with the whole Mary devotion, it’s just not something I can relate to at this time. I don’t personally have a devotion to Mary per say, but I do pray the Rosary occasionally and say the Hail Mary (I’m probably contradicting myself here). I’ll check out that article, thanks.
 
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lindalou725:
I am sure the Holy Spirit loves Mary, although she does not need Him to lead her to Christ as she is in heaven, resting.
I don’t think you recognize the fact that the Holy Spirit is the SPOUSE of Mary. Gabriel told Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of God would overshadow her (remember the Glory of God “overshadowed” the tent where the arc resided in the desert. Mary is the “Arc of the new covenant” and is overshadowed in the same way to show us the powerful relationship Mary has with the Holy Spirit (her SPOUSE) and God the Son. The angel also told Joseph not to fear, that the child within Mary was of the Holy Spirit.

She needs noone to “lead her to Christ”. She is not "resting in heaven, but busy leading as many souls as she can to her Son.

She lead me back to Christ 5 1/2 years ago. I will forever be grateful for her intervention. That is her mission–to show us the way TO Christ, NOT to take anything from Him.

Lindalou:amen:
Hi Lindalou, that is very intersting that Mary has lead you to Christ, because I hear that often. How did that happen, specifically 5 1/2 years ago? I know its different for everyone, but I’m interested to know how it happened for you. Thanks.
 
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edwinG:
Hi Lisa,
This is the picture that came up on my computer screen when I submitted that post you so object to.
walk in love
edwinG
Thats funny, because you talked about Mary in the background, etc, yet a picture with Mary Crowned as queen doesn’t bother you. In fact this picture, of all pictures, affirmed in your mind that your post was what Christ wanted you to witness to us???
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Edwin you heard NOTHING I have said:eek: By your own example if we pray for each other it is meaningless.Does it scandalize you that Jesus worked signs and miracles through the apostles?
Hi Lisa,
I pray for people and it means a lot. I would be at a complete loss if I could not pray for people.
No I am not scandalized that Jesus works miracles through people continuously. I see this almost every day. If you dont see this then you are missing out on an immense amount of joy. Possibly you are not listening to the Holy Spirit?
I dont look or ask for miracles from people who are “dead.” God is fully capable of using the billions of people living now or as Christ said, the stones on the sides of the road. He doesnt need to resort to the “dead.”
walk in love
edwinG
 
God is the God of the living…not the dead.
Moses was “dead” but there he was standing next to our transfigured Savior - TALKING with Him!!

The martyrs in Revelation are “dead” and yet there there are in heaven TALKING to God!

I cannot find any scriptural basis for this notion that the “dead” are incapable of communicating with God, incapable of intercession, and that God would not “resort” to including them in His plan for mankind.
 
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Mickey:
Wow! How many times do we have to say it. When we honor the blessed mother, we are singing praise to, and glorifying her son, Jesus. Let the scales fall from your eyes!
Hi Mickey,
Well the Son has a name, Jesus Christ, and His name is to be glorified. What is wrong with using His name if you want to praise or glorify Him.
There is no shortage of posts supporting miracles attritubed to Mary. Give the glory to Christ as His name is the name to be honored, His name is the name with all of the authority. What would you say if Benny Hinn kept on saying " Look at all the miracles I am doing. How great is the name “Benny Hinn”. No in every case the glory belongs to Jesus. What if Benny Hinn said, “every time I say I am the greatest I really mean Christ is the greatest” How would you react?
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Do you think Jesus loves His mom,Edwin?
Hi Lisa,
Without any doubt Lisa, just as much as He loves you and me.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi Mickey,
Well the Son has a name, Jesus Christ, and His name is to be glorified. What is wrong with using His name if you want to praise or glorify Him.
There is no shortage of posts supporting miracles attritubed to Mary. Give the glory to Christ as His name is the name to be honored, His name is the name with all of the authority. What would you say if Benny Hinn kept on saying " Look at all the miracles I am doing. How great is the name “Benny Hinn”. No in every case the glory belongs to Jesus. What if Benny Hinn said, “every time I say I am the greatest I really mean Christ is the greatest” How would you react?
walk in love
edwinG
Hey Edwin,

I pray to Jesus all the time. I also pray with the Blessed Mother and all the angels and saints as we glorify The Trinity together. You see it’s not either/or. Jesus is the focus. All ways that glorfify God are righteous. I just don’t believe that the deceased are cut off from the living. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that when I meet Jesus in eternal life he will be pleased that I honored His mother as He honored His mother. I just don’t see Jesus dishing out wrath because I prayed with His mother while I lived on this earth.

Blessings,
Mickey
 
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edwinG:
Hi Lisa,
I pray for people and it means a lot. I would be at a complete loss if I could not pray for people.
No I am not scandalized that Jesus works miracles through people continuously. I see this almost every day. If you dont see this then you are missing out on an immense amount of joy. Possibly you are not listening to the Holy Spirit?
I dont look or ask for miracles from people who are “dead.” God is fully capable of using the billions of people living now or as Christ said, the stones on the sides of the road. He doesnt need to resort to the “dead.”
walk in love
edwinG
I am sorry for you Edwin:nope: If you call the Blessed Virgin Mary dead then you really do not have much hope do you?You must not have much not think much about Jesus or the Holy Spirit or God the Father.Now Edwin I feel sad for you.God Bless:crying:
 
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Axion:
This seems like a little bit of sophistry to me. Of course God wants to honour Jesus. But God also wants us to honour (but not worship) Mary. Scripture tells us that all generations will call her blessed.

Mary is also twice called Blessed (GR: exalted) among women in scripture by those under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Praise and honour of Mary are part of God’s will.
Hi Axion,
Ok praise and honour but the mary of the Roman Catholic church is performing healings by your own admission.
Who would deny this?

But what you and most Protestants forget is that Mary too had a key role in salvation history. While protestants are happy to let Adam **and **Eve take the blame for the fall. They are unwilling to give Mary **any **credit at all for her part in the facilitation of the redemption. The woman (Eve) disbelieved and disobeyed God and led the man to sin. The woman (Mary) believed and obeyed God and enabled the redeeming man to come and enable our salvation.

This is why we see Mary at the conception of Jesus and at the cross, and we are told “a sword will pierece her own heart also.”
So which person who followed Christ obediently didnt have a price to pay. Did Stephen, Paul, Peter or any of the prophets. How many were killed. Did Job suffer, Did he lose all his children? Seven sons and three daughters, and a very large household. All murdered. Over history thousand of prophets. Where is your wisdom to decide how God will judge all ? I dont make that judgement, but you have placed some mary at the head of all these gallant saints. Mary lost one Son, someone she knew was destined. Is her suffering greater than Job’s wife who lost 10 children. Does any one know how Mary died? Dont misunderstand me. I am asking you where your balance is?
That’s so silly! Is Paul “cashing in” on Jesus when so many preachers extol his words? Did peter and Paul pay Luke to write up their stories in Acts? And that Moses fellow. What a self-publicist!
Paul is not healing people in his name today. Neither are Luke or Peter. None of these people claimed to do any supernatural work by their own hand then or now. Just your mary.
Well. She’s pretty much close to the foreground at the Annunciation, birth of Jesus, Cana… The crucifixion… Unfortunately some Protestants want to dismiss her altogether, and never speak of her or acknowledge her as their Mother in Christ.
So Mary is close to the foreground on 4 occasions. I am not asking for an answer but can you name more than four occasions for Moses, for Paul, for Peter, for John, for Abraham, for Samuel, for David …
What ae you saying here? Are you saying that the Mary who appears with healings and messages to the world to turn from sin, to repent and pray and follow Jesus, is not of God???

If so, you deny the gospels which say that no-one can do this without the Holy Spirit. Peter, Paul. Moses Elijah, “pushed forward” and did many signs and wonders. Presumably they too were “bulldozing” God aside? What nonsense! You are letting your man-made antipathy to Mary blind you to God’s message.
All things are from God. The point is the moderator wont let me speak on this. Probably the reading which took me some 3 hours to find may be 1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God; Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. Well, I dont know and I doubt you know if this spirit which leads you to Jesus is one who confesses this. It seems odd to me that if you are led to Jesus why are so many dry. Why was Mother Theresa dry. Something doesnt jell.
Even evil spirits believe in Jesus. All of the miracles here seem to be performed by mary. How I wish I was wrong.I have asked repeatedly for people to tell me about the Holy Spirit leading and to have them witness to Christ’s teaching but the only reaction is insults. I have had to conclude that their isnt any. Only mary’s miracles.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Mickey:
Hey Edwin,

I pray to Jesus all the time. I also pray with the Blessed Mother and all the angels and saints as we glorify The Trinity together. You see it’s not either/or. Jesus is the focus. All ways that glorfify God are righteous. I just don’t believe that the deceased are cut off from the living. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that when I meet Jesus in eternal life he will be pleased that I honored His mother as He honored His mother. I just don’t see Jesus dishing out wrath because I prayed with His mother while I lived on this earth.

Blessings,
Mickey
Hi Mickey,
Thanks for the kind post.Hebrews 7:22 By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests,because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is Holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

I hope you dwell on these words, Mickey.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Lorarose:
In the OT and NT God sent angels to appear to people.

I don’t hear people say “those darn angels are sneaking out of heaven without God looking and trying to steal his thunder! They’re trying to cash in on his glory!”

When Jesus was transfigured, Moses and Elijah appeared beside him.
Do we hear people say “Can you believe Moses and Elijah would promote themselves by placing themselves next to Jesus during his moment of glory?”

Today we see many christians from all denominations claim they have been “touched” by an angel.
It seems to always be a good thing…I don’t hear anyone say “what was that angel DOING? Was that angel a self promoter?”

And then there is Mary…oh boy.
No way would God EVER have a reason to send Mary for any work He may have.
Just because He has sent others at other times does NOT mean He would EVER send Mary.
No, no,no …if Mary is “appearing” it means she MUST be a self promoting glory thief!​

Y’know? When I see this type of attitude I see 2 things.
First I see chauvenism.

Second…I see God being put in a box. I see so called “christians” claiming they fully understand God’s plan and the tactics He uses.
They restrict the possiblities to only those they choose to accept - and if God steps out of that self imposed box they rebel.
Hello Lorarose,
Instead of telling about some angels pushing their way in, tell me their names please. I havent read that Moses or Elijah are doing miracles in their names today. Do they do this in the Roman Catholic church. Mary does.
I can not see the comparisons between what you are saying and what the thread is talking about. IT is 5:00 in the morning, maybe I am too tired to see the connection.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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