Did Adam and Eve go to hell?

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kuroro:
Hmmmm…interesting…so you based your teachings also in tradition… and not having to add or delete in what is written on the Scriptures…
Yes. Catholics believe that Divine Revelation is preserved not only in Scripture, but also in Sacred Tradition as well as the Church’s Magisterium. Where did you ever get such an idea not to add or subtract what’s in the Scriptures? 😉
 
Kuroro, are you Catholic? Your profile says you are. As I have just encountered you for the first time, I will tell you that I don’t like when people use deception to present their views. So, if you are not, please change your profile.
 
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Eden:
I would suggest going to www.scripturecatholic.com . Since your profile says you are a Catholic I would assume you are asking because you would genuinely like to know the biblical basis for the use of the “word” saints and for the belief in purgatory and not because you are being confrontational.
Yeah I’am for 24 years now, but my salvation would depend on what should I believe in,right…After reading the bible couple of times, these questions are running in my head ever since…So I just want answers directly from someone who has the correct understanding…Why am i doing things and beleiving in things that is not written on the Bible…Is that not polite to ask? Is beleiving only on what is written in the Scriptures would not save my soul? I am just being careful on what to follow…Pls… I need answers…
 
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kuroro:
Yeah I’am for 24 years now, but my salvation would depend on what should I believe in,right…After reading the bible couple of times, these questions are running in my head ever since…So I just want answers directly from someone who has the correct understanding…Why am i doing things and beleiving in things that is not written on the Bible…Is that not polite to ask? Is beleiving only on what is written in the Scriptures would not save my soul? I am just being careful on what to follow…Pls… I need answers…
O.K. I see where you are coming from now and I respect that. The CA library has thorough and well-researched biblically based answers on just about any question you may have. Like I said, www.scripturecatholic.com is a great resource too. But you can also start threads about purgatory, saints and limbo if you feel you have not gotten the answers you were seeking from those sources.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Yes. Catholics believe that Divine Revelation is preserved not only in Scripture, but also in Sacred Tradition as well as the Church’s Magisterium. Where did you ever get such an idea not to add or subtract what’s in the Scriptures? 😉
I mean if you add such prayers or somethings in your tradition, its not like adding or deleting what is written on the Bible right? I think Jhon told that on his book of revelation… Is asking these questions wuold mean that I’am not a chatolic now or I am sinning right now? = (
 
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JSmitty2005:
Yes I do believe that the Bible alone is insufficient. Although because of ignorance, there can be individuals that are saved who only have the Bible. Did you read the contents of that link?
I’m still printing it I’ll read it later ok…So, its like this, if I’am an author of a book, example I am also a doctor and writing this book about some cure on this illness like for example a cancer…Do you think I would not write everything I know on the best of my knowledge, that might save someones life, should I write it incomplete or I’ll write everything I know about this cure? Now do you think that these words of God written on the Scriptures that He Himself is the Author is not enough to save someones soul? Did He wrote it incomplete?
 
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kuroro:
I’m still printing it I’ll read it later ok…So, its like this, if I’am an author of a book, example I am also a doctor and writing this book about some cure on this illness like for example a cancer…Do you think I would not write everything I know on the best of my knowledge, that might save someones life, should I write it incomplete or I’ll write everything I know about this cure? Now do you think that these words of God written on the Scriptures that He Himself is the Author is not enough to save someones soul? Did He wrote it incomplete?
I’m confused. Your profile says you are Catholic. That means you know that the Bible alone is not enough but you seem to be questioning that.
Divine Revelation came to us through Scared Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
 
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kuroro:
I’m still printing it I’ll read it later ok…So, its like this, if I’am an author of a book, example I am also a doctor and writing this book about some cure on this illness like for example a cancer…Do you think I would not write everything I know on the best of my knowledge, that might save someones life, should I write it incomplete or I’ll write everything I know about this cure? Now do you think that these words of God written on the Scriptures that He Himself is the Author is not enough to save someones soul? Did He wrote it incomplete?
If you know nothing about medicine, then the doctor’s book won’t mean much to you. If you take your cancer curing book out of the context of the medical community, it won’t do you much good since that’s the only context in which it can bear fruit. The same goes for the Bible. It’s context has always been within the Church. After all, it was the Church that wrote the Bible and compiled it. Sacred Tradition is the age-old constant, unchanging interpretation that the Church has had of the Scriptures. Kuroro, have you ever heard of a group of individuals called the Church Fathers?
 
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kuroro:
I mean if you add such prayers or somethings in your tradition, its not like adding or deleting what is written on the Bible right? I think Jhon told that on his book of revelation… Is asking these questions wuold mean that I’am not a chatolic now or I am sinning right now? = (
In Revelation when it says not to add or subtract from “this book,” John mean just that…the book of Revelation, not the Bible. The Bible isn’t actually a book. It’s a library. It wasn’t compiled between two covers until about AD 400 when the Catholic Church decided which books to include/exclude from being considered Scripture. Furthermore, if you’re going to interpret that verse from Revelation as meaning the Bible, then Protestants are guilty of subtracting entire books from the Old Testament. Martin Luther did this. Prior to his time, Christians has always accepted the 7 deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Since you’re Catholic, you may not know what I’m talking about, but Protestants have less books in their Bible than Catholics. But now you know, so you can defend your Catholic faith! 🙂
 
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Spyder1jcd:
You don’t have to be a skeptic to not believe in Adam and Eve. I’m a practicing Catholic and I see it as just a myth. I mean, if you compare the story to other creation myths from other cultures, you will find that they are equally fantastical. The same applies to stories such as Noah’s ark and the Tower of Babel.

Personally, I’m an intelligent evolution man.
how can you be a “practicing” Catholic if you are an evolution man?
That is a contradictory statement and makes zero sense to me. Adam and Eve are not a myth, neither is Noah and the ark. Neither is the tower of babel.
 
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Marilena:
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Spyder1jcd:
You don’t have to be a skeptic to not believe in Adam and Eve. I’m a practicing Catholic and I see it as just a myth. I mean, if you compare the story to other creation myths from other cultures, you will find that they are equally fantastical. The same applies to stories such as Noah’s ark and the Tower of Babel.

Personally, I’m an intelligent evolution man.how can you be a “practicing” Catholic if you are an evolution man?
That is a contradictory statement and makes zero sense to me. Adam and Eve are not a myth, neither is Noah and the ark. Neither is the tower of babel.
You’re absolutely right, Marilena. Spyder, you may want to read this:

biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.asp?id=7

As well as Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis because your current stance is not* in line with the Church’s official teaching. Just think about it:
  • If Adam and Eve didn’t really exist, then there was no Original Sin.
  • If there was no Original Sin, then what need do we have for redemption?
  • If we need not redemption, then Jesus came for nothing. (And, no, I don’t want to hear that “He was just a great spiritual teacher” garbage.)
You see, you’ve completely undermined the Christian faith with such nonsense. Furthermore, I don’t see why you’d ever want to believe such a thing considering that it’s been scientifically proven using mitochondrial DNA that all of mankind can be traced back to a single woman who has been aptly named “Eve.” 😉

*In case you need a reminder, the Catechism says in paragraph 2089 that:

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.”

I think that this qualifies as “some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith.”
 
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Brendan:
The Church can only declare what She is told.
That’s a dangerous statement…do you really think every infallible statement that the Church has made has been handed to it directly by God? The Church doesn’t absolutely require some special revelation in order to make an infallible statement or faith or morals.

The most important thing we really have to remember here is that the Church’s authority on such matters is under the Divine protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit; if that person really wasn’t in Hell (or Heaven), then the Church would not be able to declare them so. But that doesn’t mean that the Church doesn’t have the ability to do such a thing; it’s the same power, simply a form of it that has never been used, and most likely (hopefully) never will be.
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Brendan:
How exactly would this commuinication would occur from God to Church in the case of someone in Hell?
Should exactly how would the Church be told infallibly that a particular person is in Hell?
Of course I don’t know the answer. But I can give you a couple of ideas: Perhaps God reveals it to the Church through a vision given to some saint living on Earth. Perhaps He somehow reveals it through one of the apparitions of His Blessed Mother. Perhaps He directly reveals it Himself…He could do it absolutely any way that He chose to.

Or perhaps He simply chooses to reveals it through His Bride, the Church. Perhaps there’s an investigation, and the Church determines that it is highly likely that a given person is in Hell. (I can already tell you that certain people genuinely possessed by demons have claimed to be under the influence of Judas and Hitler, among others…of course it still could be a lie, but it’s interesting to consider nevertheless.) If the Church ever did perform such an investigation, and then proceeed to proclaim it infallibly, then we would know that the Holy Spirit has protected and guided that judgement. And there you have it…one very realistic way that God could easily reveal us this sort of truth: through His Bride, the Church.
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Myangel:
This is what I was taught also. Everything that is not Heaven is hell, including Purgatory and Limbo (temporary) and then there was eternal Hell.
For the sake of simplicity, the answer is no. On a technical note, however, you could be correct if you re-define the terms “Hell” (uppercase) and “hell” (lowercase) separately…but I think that’s just playing word games. Hell (the one and only real Hell) is the state of eternal separation from God. This life is not Hell; neither is Purgatory or Limbo (Abraham’s Bosom).

The only thing like that that you really could make a case for is the assertion that this life is really a form of Purgatory: if we don’t suffer temporal punishment for our sins now and learn to let go of our attatchment to sin, then we have to continue that same purifying process in some other form (after our death) before we can enter Heaven.
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Spyder1jcd:
You don’t have to be a skeptic to not believe in Adam and Eve. I’m a practicing Catholic and I see it as just a myth. I mean, if you compare the story to other creation myths from other cultures, you will find that they are equally fantastical. The same applies to stories such as Noah’s ark and the Tower of Babel.
Personally, I’m an intelligent evolution man.
I would also consider myself an “intelligent evolution man”…but that doesn’t change the fact that Adam and Eve were real people, or that Noah’s Flood is the account of a real historical event. Even the Tower of Babel is (more or less literally) the record of a real historical event.
But seriously, can we move this discussion to another thread? It’s way off topic… :rolleyes:
 
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JSmitty2005:
You’re absolutely right, Marilena. Spyder, you may want to read this:

biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.asp?id=7

As well as Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis because your current stance is not* in line with the Church’s official teaching. Just think about it:
  • If Adam and Eve didn’t really exist, then there was no Original Sin.
  • If there was no Original Sin, then what need do we have for redemption?
  • If we need not redemption, then Jesus came for nothing. (And, no, I don’t want to hear that “He was just a great spiritual teacher” garbage.)
You see, you’ve completely undermined the Christian faith with such nonsense. Furthermore, I don’t see why you’d ever want to believe such a thing considering that it’s been scientifically proven using mitochondrial DNA that all of mankind can be traced back to a single woman who has been aptly named “Eve.” 😉

*In case you need a reminder, the Catechism says in paragraph 2089 that:

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.”

I think that this qualifies as “some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith.”
First, I don’t recall anywhere in the Catechism stating that the story of Adam and Eve is Catholic dogma.

Second, I have no arguments with the idea of Original Sin. I’m just saying that the first man didn’t have to be pulled up from dust and the first woman had to be made from the rib of the first man for Original Sin to exist. Consider that (going with the idea that every scientific process, no matter how slow, has a definite peak) as soon as the first true human in the most basic terms (ability to think freely, make judicial decisions) committed a sin, no matter what it was, THAT was when Original Sin came into being. The moment we, as a human race, accepted the temptation of Satan and his morks, is the moment Original Sin began its existence. I’m sorry, but that makes much more sense to me than the alternative.

Third, all of my beliefs on the matter do not conflict with this statement, found in the article linked by Eden:

"Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are."

In short, I believe that God decided at one point in evolution that the stage we were in was really human in the most basic terms besides soul, and at that point he created the human soul. So perhaps that “single woman” that you mentioned earlier was the first true human being. It doesn’t mean that she had to have been whipped up on the spot by God. It just means that the soul had to have been.
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masterjedi747:
But seriously, can we move this discussion to another thread? It’s way off topic… :rolleyes:
I agree. If anyone wants to discuss this with me any further, just start a thread or send me a personal message.
 
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Spyder1jcd:
First, I don’t recall anywhere in the Catechism stating that the story of Adam and Eve is Catholic dogma.

Second, I have no arguments with the idea of Original Sin. I’m just saying that the first man didn’t have to be pulled up from dust and the first woman had to be made from the rib of the first man for Original Sin to exist. Consider that (going with the idea that every scientific process, no matter how slow, has a definite peak) as soon as the first true human in the most basic terms (ability to think freely, make judicial decisions) committed a sin, no matter what it was, THAT was when Original Sin came into being. The moment we, as a human race, accepted the temptation of Satan and his morks, is the moment Original Sin began its existence. I’m sorry, but that makes much more sense to me than the alternative.

Third, all of my beliefs on the matter do not conflict with this statement, found in the articled linked by Eden:

"Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are."

In short, I believe that God decided at one point in evolution that the stage we were in was really human in the most basic terms besides soul, and at that point he created the human soul. So perhaps that “single woman” that you mentioned earlier was the first true human being. It doesn’t mean that she had to have been whipped up on the spot by God. It just means that the soul had to have been.
You explicitly said that you don’t believe in Adam & Eve and that it is just a myth. While the Creation narrative mustn’t be taken literally, we certainly must believe that there was a first set of parents through whom sin entered the human race. Apparently you didn’t read the link to Humani Generis:

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
 
Since you also refused to read the other link I gave you, I will have to paste its contents here:

Q: I had a theology professor who told me that Adam and Eve were just myths, and that the rest of Genesis was all just legends…is that what the Church teaches?

A: Absolutely not! The Church has always taught that Adam and Eve were real people and were the first human beings from whom all other human beings are descended. In 1950, Pope Pius XII, in Paragraph 37 of an encyclical entitled Humani Generis, states, “…the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from [Adam] as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.” In other words, the Church teaches that all humanity descended from Adam and Eve. They had to be real for that to happen.

Paragraph #38, states: “This [encyclical], in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis…do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense…” Again, Adam and Eve are not myths, and the rest of Genesis is not legend. They are history in a “true sense.”

Paragraph #39: “Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things…” Can it be stated any clearer than that?

And listen to what the Catechism says, Paragraph #375, “The Church…teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve…” No mention of a myth here.

Paragraph #404: “By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin.” Someone please tell me, how do myths commit personal sins?

Adam and Eve are not myths. Genesis does not contain myth or legend. That is Church teaching. Challenge anyone, who teaches differently, to produce their sources from a magisterial document. They cannot do it. They can, however, produce countless books and articles by “theologians”. Not good enough.

Finally, you may also want to consider this from the Word of God:

“Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned.” (Romans 5:12)

Okay, I’m done. If you’d like to take it to another thread, feel free, but I think it’s pretty clear that Catholics must believe that Adam and Eve were real people who really sinned.
 
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JSmitty2005:
You explicitly said that you don’t believe in Adam & Eve and that it is just a myth. While the Creation narrative mustn’t be taken literally, we certainly must believe that there was a first set of parents through whom sin entered the human race. Apparently you didn’t read the link to Humani Generis:When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
Then this has been somewhat of a misunderstanding. I meant that I did not take the account literally. Of course I believe that there was a first man and that only from him came other true men. The other “branches” of the evolutionary tree became modern primates, or perhaps even Bigfoot, if anyone wants to go that far. 😉

As for the Catechism, the term “Adam and Eve” can be general. Ultimately, the Catechism is referring to the first man and woman, which I believe in. But the Catechism says nothing about the first man and woman being brought up directly from dust.
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JSmitty2005:
Okay, I’m done. If you’d like to take it to another thread, feel free, but I think it’s pretty clear that Catholics must believe that Adam and Eve were real people who really sinned.
No, it’s pretty clear that Catholics must believe that the first man and woman were real people who really sinned.
 
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Spyder1jcd:
Then this has been somewhat of a misunderstanding. I meant that I did not take the account literally. Of course I believe that there was a first man and that only from him came other true men. The other “branches” of the evolutionary tree became modern primates, or perhaps even Bigfoot, if anyone wants to go that far. 😉
I think you’re right about this being a misunderstanding if you believe that Adam & Eve really existed and were our first parents, but I didn’t get that impression from what you said in post #98. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.
 
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