Did Adam and Eve go to hell?

[Spyder1jcd]

Crumpy:

If we knew for sure if Adam and Eve were in hell, then the suspense would be gone, wouldn’t it?

The skeptics would answer here, that there is no Adam, there is no Eve, and there is no hell.

You don’t have to be a skeptic to not believe in Adam and Eve. I’m a practicing Catholic and I see it as just a myth. I mean, if you compare the story to other creation myths from other cultures, you will find that they are equally fantastical. The same applies to stories such as Noah’s ark and the Tower of Babel.

Personally, I’m an intelligent evolution man.

 

[Myangel]

So, are we in hell right now, because I think this is not heaven yet? How about the word saint, where did it came from?

With everything going on the world today, I would have to say yes! Maybe not eternal fires of hell but a form of hell.

 

[Eden]

Balance:

Great! I would have preferred that this was the fiorst thing I heard about Fr Corapi, rather than an out-of-context quote about “dissidents” going to hell. The one makes me want to find out more about him, the other, while not being enough to make me write him off, of course, certainly doesn’t make me want to know more.

Balance, why don’t you start a thread about Fr. Corapi if this is still troubling you? This thread is not about JSmitty or Fr. Corapi but if you start a new thread I’ll participate. I’m suggesting this because the off-topic posts are becoming a distraction.

 

[JSmitty2005]

kuroro:

So, are we in hell right now, because I think this is not heaven yet? How about the word saint, where did it came from?

The words “Trinity,” “sacrament,” and “Incarnation” are not in the Bible, but almost all Christians believe in them. The Bible is not the only rule of faith for a Christian. See the following link:

geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html?200620

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

You crack me up. You just can’t let it go, can you?

Even the sin of dissidence?

Nope, I let it go soon after I made my first comment about your signature.
I thought it was a good point - you were saying “The Bible says so” - that’s heading towards a certain kind of dissidence that I’m sure you wouldn’t approve of - that dissidnece that says a person can interpret one verse, or a couple of verses, of scripture for himself and be sure of the correctness of that interpretation.
Hmmm.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

It repels me, to suggest that it’s not likely that a person would “ever turn to God” - again, a comment that suggests a certain pridefulness in the speaker, a whisper that perhaps they consider themselves above “certain individuals,” that their own sin is not nearly as bad as those certain individuals… when in fact it is.

Please consider the other posts I’ve written in their context:
JB.:

I don’t think She can. While a person is still alive and able to repent, the possibility exists that that person might do so, even in his last seconds, possibly when no outside observer might be able to affirmatively report that such repentance had occurred. Is such the case with Judas? We don’t know and can’t know with certainty from this side of Heaven (or Hell), so I don’t think the Church will ever rule definitively on this.

JSmitty2005:

I think She could. Considering that She can proclaim saints, the opposite can be said to be true as well. Following your logic:

While a person is still alive and able to reject God, the possibility exists that that person might do so, even in his last seconds, possibly when no outside observer might be able to affirmatively report that such repentance had occurred. Is such the case with even one of the saints?

I suppose it would be possible if the Church weren’t infallible. It’s also not very likely either. Do you really think that any of the saints would ever do such a thing? I sure don’t. The flip side is also true. Almost beyond a shadow of a doubt we can say that it’s not very likely that certain individuals like Judas would ever turn to God. Lastly, this idea of last-minute salvation sounds an awful lot like the Protestant OSAS “accepting Jesus into your heart” deal. What ever happened to salvation being a lifelong journey?

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

Judgment alert!

Arggh. OK, now I’m over it.
grin

There’s no “judgement” in saying that one person’s sins are as bad as another’s, so no need for a “judgement alert.”

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

Please consider the other posts I’ve written in their context:

you didn’t include your other posts… which are the ones I was referring to.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

you were saying “The Bible says so” - that’s heading towards a certain kind of dissidence that I’m sure you wouldn’t approve of - that dissidnece that says a person can interpret one verse, or a couple of verses, of scripture for himself and be sure of the correctness of that interpretation.
Hmmm.

#1 - The Bible is the authoriative Word of God.

#2 - Some of the Bible is explicit enough not to result in multiple interpretations and therefore needing the Church to make a judgment.

#3 - Private interpretation is in no way dissidence unless it is contrary to a Church doctrine, and I don’t see this being the case. Catholics can freely believe Judas is in Heaven or Hell just as they can in Creationism or Darwinism. I was simply saying that I believe that it’s pretty obvious where Judas is considering Jesus’s words. In my opinion, if you don’t think it is, you have some sort of universalist agenda behind such an interpretation, but like I said, that’s only my opinion.

 

[Balance]

Eden:

Balance, why don’t you start a thread about Fr. Corapi if this is still troubling you? This thread is not about JSmitty or Fr. Corapi but if you start a new thread I’ll participate. I’m suggesting this because the off-topic posts are becoming a distraction.

Sorry. I have to confess I didn’t really think of that - must have been annoying for you (and others)!

I don’t think I need to start a new thread - maybe I will. What would I title it? “The use of language - how to avoid abscuring your message through the use of fragmented quotes and arrogant phrases”?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

Arggh. OK, now I’m over it.
grin

There’s no “judgement” in saying that one person’s sins are as bad as another’s, so no need for a “judgement alert.”

What “sins” of mine were you even referring to? My political incorrectness? Is that not a judgment?

 

[Balance]

#1 - The Bible is the authoriative Word of God.

#2 - Some of the Bible is explicit enough not to result in multiple interpretations and therefore needing the Church to make a judgment.

#3 - Private interpretation is in no way dissidence unless it is contrary to a Church doctrine, and I don’t see this being the case. Catholics can freely believe Judas is in Heaven or Hell just as they can in Creationism or Darwinism. I was simply saying that I believe that it’s pretty obvious where Judas is considering Jesus’s words. In my opinion, if you don’t think it is, you have some sort of universalist agenda behind such an interpretation, but like I said, that’s only my opinion.

This’ll be my last post.
Let me again say that I meant no offence in any of my posts, and I’m sorry if I was rude or thoughtless at all. I did, however, mean to argue against both much of what you said and particularly the way you said it, and I stand by all that.

I ask you just to think, simply, about the way you use quotes, and the language you use when arguing.
OK?
Peace.

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

What “sins” of mine were you even referring to? My political incorrectness? Is that not a judgment?

OK, this’ll be my last.
I wasn’t referring to any of your sins. I said “a person’s sins…” which is a rhetorical device - surely that’s abvious.

And more labels: “political incorrectness” - whatever that means.

I’m gone.

 

[kuroro]

Eden:

You haven’t seen the word “saint” in the Bible?

The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

REV, 4:10
9
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10
the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:
Rev 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones
Rev:9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar 8 the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, 9 before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been10 Then I watched while he broke open the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; the sun turned as black as dark sackcloth 11 and the whole moon became like blood.
The stars in the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs

No saint right?How about purgatory, what verse?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

I ask you just to think, simply, about the way you use quotes, and the language you use when arguing.
OK?
Peace.

Actually, I think that we may both be in need of such searching. You’ve used the word arrogant or some derivative of it in at least 5 of your posts. I will let the other posters be the judge of where the arrogance resides. Farewell.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

OK, this’ll be my last.
I wasn’t referring to any of your sins. I said “a person’s sins…” which is a rhetorical device - surely that’s abvious.

And more labels: “political incorrectness” - whatever that means.

I’m gone.

You weren’t implying me in this post? You fooled me!

Balance:

JSmitty2005:

I Almost beyond a shadow of a doubt we can say that it’s not very likely that certain individuals like Judas would ever turn to God.

“we can say”? and “certain individuals”?
When I hear language like this, I wonder what else is going on in the speaker’s heart and mind. “certain individuals” like Hitler, I suppose, or Milosevic, or that “renegade priest” down the road or that Mrs X in your parish who tries to perpetrate those liturgical abuses, or that guy on that forum who disagrees with you…

It repels me, to suggest that it’s not likely that a person would “ever turn to God” - again, a comment that suggests a certain pridefulness in the speaker, a whisper that perhaps they consider themselves above “certain individuals,” that their own sin is not nearly as bad as those certain individuals… when in fact it is.

Goodbye, and if you return, let’s stick to the thread topic and not police how you think other people should say things.

 

[Eden]

Balance:

Sorry. I have to confess I didn’t really think of that - must have been annoying for you (and others)!

I don’t think I need to start a new thread - maybe I will. What would I title it? “The use of language - how to avoid abscuring your message through the use of fragmented quotes and arrogant phrases”?

Thread title? “Fr. Corapi: Who is he, what does he teach?” or something like that.

 

[Eden]

kuroro:

REV, 4:10
9
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10
the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:
Rev 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones
Rev:9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar 8 the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, 9 before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been10 Then I watched while he broke open the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; the sun turned as black as dark sackcloth 11 and the whole moon became like blood.
The stars in the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs

No saint right?How about purgatory, what verse?

I would suggest going to www.scripturecatholic.com . Since your profile says you are a Catholic I would assume you are asking because you would genuinely like to know the biblical basis for the use of the “word” saints and for the belief in purgatory and not because you are being confrontational.

 

[kuroro]

JSmitty2005:

The words “Trinity,” “sacrament,” and “Incarnation” are not in the Bible, but almost all Christians believe in them. The Bible is not the only rule of faith for a Christian. See the following link:

geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html?200620

Hmmmm…interesting…so you based your teachings also in tradition… and not having to add or delete in what is written on the Scriptures…So you think that Gods words and teachings that is written on the bible is not enough to save a soul?

 

[JSmitty2005]

kuroro:

So you think that Gods words and teachings that is written on the bible is not enough to save a soul?

Yes I do believe that the Bible alone is insufficient. Although because of ignorance, there can be individuals that are saved who only have the Bible. Did you read the contents of that link?