Did Adam and Eve go to hell?

[doomhammer]

“That upper spirit, Who hath worse punishment,” so spake my guide, “Is Judas, he that hath his head within And plies the feet without. Of th’ other two, Whose heads are under, from the murky jaw Who hangs, is Brutus: lo! how he doth writhe And speaks not! Th’ other Cassius, that appears So large of limb. But night now re-ascends, And it is time for parting. All is seen.”

 

[masterjedi747]

JSmitty2005:

I think She could. Considering that She can proclaim saints, the opposite can be said to be true as well…
JB.:

I disagree. The two situations are dissimilar.

The Church could infallibly declare that someone is in Hell if She really wanted to…I’ve heard this question asked before, and, from what I understand, it’s really not “open for discussion”. The Church could do so. The question then becomes: "Would the Church ever infallibly declare that someone is in Hell?..And the overwhelming response to that question is often a very strong NO, if only because of the fact there’s really no need whatsoever for Her to do such a thing. Regardless of that fact, however, the power to do so still remains intact.

 

[Balance]

paramedicgirl:

Boy, would my born-again Christian sister ever roll her eyes if anyone ever said that to her! I think I know what you mean, but there must be a better way to phrase it.

Exactly - that’s my point (you might have missed it if you haven’t read my earlier posts). I’m objecting to people (IE selfrighteous, smug Catholics) feeling superior to those they view as “nonCatholics” or “Protestants” - both convenient labels for people who might not be initiated Catholics but who may be following Christ more closely than they are.

 

[Balance]

Anonymous_1:

As Catholics we are not doing our neighbor a favor by not sharing this truth with them. This is probally what Fr. Corapi intended to mean.

Just my thoughts.

Exactly. Thanks for putting my point in such a good way!
Two things:

• to use labels, as Corapi and others do, such as “dissident,” immediately puts up barriers between the speaker using such a label and the people to whom he wishes to speak. Thing is, it’s so easy to use such labels (another word for “easy” in this context might be “lazy”) but why would you not take a bit more effort, and a few more words, and do a better job of saying what you want to say?
• to suggest that people labelled as such (dissidents) are going to hell because they are “dissidents” is irresponsible, arrogant, unloving, unorthodox and unChristlike. Only God can make a comment on a person’s soul and its final destination.
  Corapi, saying that dissidents are going to hell, presumes to put himself alongside God in judgement on a person’s soul. Who does he think he is?
  If he intended to mean what you say he did, and I agree with you, then he needs to say it better - and the person using that quote from Corapi, out of context, as their signature, needs to rethink their use of it - needs to think about how it comes across. I don’t think Corapi would actually be happy with how they are quoting him, if he is as good a man as is claimed.

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

A great priest. I apologize that Balance has hijacked your thread. It is simply carry-over from a hissy in another thread. Sorry about that.

again, the agressive and smug language used!
“hijack”…
“a hissy…”
whatever you might be wanting to say is distorted and obscured by the words you use…

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

I apologize that Balance has hijacked your thread. .

grin
and why on Earth would you apologise on my behalf???

 

[Brendan]

masterjedi747:

The Church could infallibly declare that someone is in Hell if She really wanted to…I’ve heard this question asked before, and, from what I understand, it’s really not “open for discussion”.

No it cannot.

The Church can only declare what She is told.

When the Church infallibly declares a person is a Saint, it is becuase the Church has been told such by God via miracles accomplished via that person’s intercessions.

How exactly would this commuinication would occur from God to Church in the case of someone in Hell?

Those in Hell cannot intercede for us, we can expect no miracles from those in the care of Satan.

Should exactly how would the Church be told infallibly that a particular person is in Hell?

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

He gives powerful sermons. He has an amazing conversion story. He is unabashedly conservative/orthodox/traditional (whatever you want to call it, he’s 150% faithful to the Church). He’s often on EWTN and his website can be found at the following link:

fathercorapi.com/

see, i don’t know much aboput Fr Corapi. My introduction to him was as a quote by one of his admirers “is it pastoral care to let dissidents dance their merry way to hell?” which came across as arrogant and un Christlike - judgemental even. Then I click on a link to his website and am met with, not his conversion story or his love of the Church (wouldn’t the nature of his love of God be worth commenting on, or is his love of the Church more important than that?) or something about Christ, but with advertisments for his CDs, videos anbd so on. I would have preferred that the first thing to catch my eye on a priest’s website would have been something about Christ - not something directing me to that priest’s products about Christ, but something directing me to Christ.

Now, I’m not casting any aspersions on Fr Corapi here, just sayinmg that this is what my introduction to him has been - which fleshes out my point about the use of Corapi’s quote. Wouldn’t you rather that my first introduction to Corpai had been a quote about Christ, or about Corapi’s coming to conversion, or about the love of Christ, than a quote about people going to hell?

you even have to add an editorial inclusion in brackets [dissidents] to be sure that the readers of this quote, plucked out of context, get it, and whatever point you’re hoiping to make by using it.

???

 

[Myangel]

malachi_a_serva:

Before Christ came and died on the cross for us, everyone went to Hell. Hell had two compartments - the suffering side and the “paradise” side. So, everyone went to the same place, just to different sides (rich man and begger parable…they could see each other just divided). It was after Jesus “gave up the ghost” when he went to preach in Hell and take the saved (ones in Paradise’s side) to Heaven.

If people went to Heaven before Christ took our punishment on the cross in our stead, then there was no need for him to come.

This is what I was taught also. Everything that is not Heaven is hell, including Purgatory and Limbo (temporary) and then there was eternal Hell. Limbo was a place for all the saints prior to Jesus and when He came and died for us he opened the gates of Heaven!

 

[thistle]

Balance:

see, i don’t know much aboput Fr Corapi. My introduction to him was as a quote by one of his admirers “is it pastoral care to let dissidents dance their merry way to hell?” which came across as arrogant and un Christlike - judgemental even. Then I click on a link to his website and am met with, not his conversion story or his love of the Church (wouldn’t the nature of his love of God be worth commenting on, or is his love of the Church more important than that?) or something about Christ, but with advertisments for his CDs, videos anbd so on. I would have preferred that the first thing to catch my eye on a priest’s website would have been something about Christ - not something directing me to that priest’s products about Christ, but something directing me to Christ.

Now, I’m not casting any aspersions on Fr Corapi here, just sayinmg that this is what my introduction to him has been - which fleshes out my point about the use of Corapi’s quote. Wouldn’t you rather that my first introduction to Corpai had been a quote about Christ, or about Corapi’s coming to conversion, or about the love of Christ, than a quote about people going to hell?

you even have to add an editorial inclusion in brackets [dissidents] to be sure that the readers of this quote, plucked out of context, get it, and whatever point you’re hoiping to make by using it.

???

Father Corapi is one of the great modern preachers and communicators. He is on EWTN every week with a one hour talk. Check the times and listen to one of his talks which are powerful and compelling. Also he does not talk over people’s heads but in a down to earth easy to understand way.

 

[kuroro]

Ahhh…Im sorry…I think they are not yet on heaven nor in hell…they have to wait first for Jesus to come here then after that they will be judged according to what they have done here on earth…I believed that we will be judged all at the same time,not one by one or first come first serve or something like that…Its is written in the bible that Jesus will come here,not us will come to Him, to judge all human beings, and not only the one that is still alive after the second coming but also those that is already dead…Then I think after the final judgement, eve will go to heaven and adam will go to hell, just my opinion…

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

How about, “it would be better if he was never born”?

Out of the mouth of God, I might add.

we can’t take one verse as a basis for making an argument. (That’s something a “dissident” would do.)
We have to look at the whole of what Christ taught about salvation and redemption, and at how the Church has interpreted that throughout history, not go with our own interpretation.
What else did Jesus say about this?
That what will detemine our final destination could be something as simple as refusing a glass of water to someone in need. So it seems that even though Judas’ betrayal was seemingly a “greater” sin that refusing a glass of water, any sin is enough to take us away from God - any sin is enough to merit damnation.

But we have to take that thought and put it against what we know of God’s mercy and forgiveness - that our sins will be forgiven, made as white as snow. That Christ’s sacrifice paid the price for Judas’ sin, and for ours. That a person could reject Christ all his life but turn to him in the last seconds and be forgiven.

It all comes back to our understanding of sin - sin as an abstract and what we know of our own sin. Is God satnding over us with a big stick, whacking us each time we sin, so that we are in a constant cycle of falling and picking ourselves up, of sinning and then starting over, or are we in fact, blameless (when repentant) by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, and live instead in an embrace of mercy and love, conscious of our sinfulness but giving it to God every moment, knowing that he is right there with us in our sin, not standing off in the distance shaking his head and writing it down in a black book.

 

[JSmitty2005]

masterjedi747:

The Church could infallibly declare that someone is in Hell if She really wanted to…I’ve heard this question asked before, and, from what I understand, it’s really not “open for discussion”. The Church could do so. The question then becomes: "Would the Church ever infallibly declare that someone is in Hell?..And the overwhelming response to that question is often a very strong NO, if only because of the fact there’s really no need whatsoever for Her to do such a thing. Regardless of that fact, however, the power to do so still remains intact.

That’s exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Balance]

thistle:

Father Corapi is one of the great modern preachers and communicators. He is on EWTN every week with a one hour talk. Check the times and listen to one of his talks which are powerful and compelling. Also he does not talk over people’s heads but in a down to earth easy to understand way.

Great! I would have preferred that this was the fiorst thing I heard about Fr Corapi, rather than an out-of-context quote about “dissidents” going to hell. The one makes me want to find out more about him, the other, while not being enough to make me write him off, of course, certainly doesn’t make me want to know more.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

we can’t take one verse as a basis for making an argument. (That’s something a “dissident” would do.)

You crack me up. You just can’t let it go, can you?

any sin is enough to take us away from God - any sin is enough to merit damnation.

Even the sin of dissidence?

 

[kuroro]

Myangel:

This is what I was taught also. Everything that is not Heaven is hell, including Purgatory and Limbo (temporary) and then there was eternal Hell. Limbo was a place for all the saints prior to Jesus and when He came and died for us he opened the gates of Heaven!

Where did the word saint, purgatory or Limbo came from? I haven’t seen even such word in the bible… Thanks

 

[Balance]

JSmitty2005:

I Almost beyond a shadow of a doubt we can say that it’s not very likely that certain individuals like Judas would ever turn to God.

“we can say”? and “certain individuals”?
When I hear language like this, I wonder what else is going on in the speaker’s heart and mind. “certain individuals” like Hitler, I suppose, or Milosevic, or that “renegade priest” down the road or that Mrs X in your parish who tries to perpetrate those liturgical abuses, or that guy on that forum who disagrees with you…

It repels me, to suggest that it’s not likely that a person would “ever turn to God” - again, a comment that suggests a certain pridefulness in the speaker, a whisper that perhaps they consider themselves above “certain individuals,” that their own sin is not nearly as bad as those certain individuals… when in fact it is.

 

[Eden]

kuroro:

Where did the word saint, purgatory or Limbo came from? I haven’t seen even such word in the bible… Thanks

You haven’t seen the word “saint” in the Bible?

The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

 

[kuroro]

kuroro:

Where did the word saint, purgatory or Limbo came from? I haven’t seen even such word in the bible… Thanks

So, are we in hell right now, because I think this is not heaven yet? How about the word saint, where did it came from?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Balance:

a whisper that perhaps they consider themselves above “certain individuals,” that their own sin is not nearly as bad as those certain individuals… when in fact it is.

Judgment alert!