Did Adam and Eve go to hell?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Marilena
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
The church no longer teaches/believes in Limbo…
There are two separate conditions sometimes called Limbo. The one more commonly known the Church never did officially teach, except as a philosophical compromise between those who held that the necesity of Baptism to avoid damnation bound even infants and others not capable of committing mortal sin, and those who believed God’s Justice and Mercy could not allow such persons to be damned even if they should die without Baptism. This compromise was never taught as Doctrine, but the faithful were free to believe this should they so choose.

The Church does, however, teach that another state did exist, sometimes called the Limbo of the Fathers or Abraham’s Bosom, wherein the souls of the just who died before Christ waited until Christ opened Heaven. This state ceased to exist when Heaven was opened after Christ’s death.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
No offense at all taken. It makes sence to me…that Hell being cast into the lake of fire in Rev. Luke 16 referres to “Abraham’s Bossom”. so I guess that is the real question - where is that?

If people could go to Heaven beofe Christ died an attoning death? His purpose would be for not. A few things about Like 16…people on both sides could see each other…would Heaven be a fun place to see your loved ones suffering in Hell? Just question.

Here are some links of similiar discussion:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=101930&highlight=hell

This one is a good one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=98862&highlight=hell
from my understanding, someone please correct me if im wrong but Sheol/Hades are Hebrew and Greek words for place of the dead. They are not the same as Hell as in the lake of fire and eternal seperation from God. It was in this place of the dead that is referred to by Paradise and Abrahams Bosom for the righteous and torment for the unrighteous.

Serva, I need to apologize for being so critical of your theology becasue the truth is I don’t know what I am talking about and I was just being arrogant and proud. Please forgive me
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
Let’s see what Catholic Answers’ chief apologist has to say:

jimmyakin.org/2004/05/canonization_of_1.html
Mr Akin presents reasonable arguments which may support the position of those who may think that Judas is damned. He also seems to express his personal opinion that this is the case, although I could not find a direct declaration of such on this page. Perhaps it was in Part 1? For what it’s worth, my personal opinon concurs. But my personal opinion is not the teaching authority of the Church, so I can not state with definition what the Church has not. Neither does Mr Akin.
jimmyakin.org:
…Whether the plusses outweigh the minuses in making such a definition [of Judas’ damnation] . . . is for a wiser head than mine.
 
JB.:
Mr Akin presents reasonable arguments which may support the position of those who may think that Judas is damned. He also seems to express his personal opinion that this is the case, although I could not find a direct declaration of such on this page. Perhaps it was in Part 1? For what it’s worth, my personal opinon concurs. But my personal opinion is not the teaching authority of the Church, so I can not state with definition what the Church has not. Neither does Mr Akin.
Yeah, it didn’t show any examples of declarations, in fact, he reiterated what you said about the Church not having done so officially:

“By defining that Judas is in hell, the Church could hold him up as an example (which is what Jesus was doing, after all) of how hell is a real possibility.”

However, how would the Church even do such a thing? I think that both the Church and God have insinuated that Judas is in Hell, but like you said, nothing “official.”
 
You all may want to consider the following links:

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0305/articles/dulles.html

christorchaos.com/APatronSaintforConciliarism.htm

sspxasia.com/Newsletters/1997/November/Hell.htm *

As well as what Bob Sungenis wrote in this article:

As it stands, there are many other things John Paul II has said and done that make it hard for one to be partial to him. In regards to the issue of hell, for example, Mr. Young tries to defend the pope by stating that those who have accused him of saying “hell is not a place” have their translation askew. It should be “hell is more than a place.” Granted, but objections to John Paul’s view of hell have little to do with whether it is a place. Rather, it concerns his constant insinuation that few people, if any, will be sent to hell. In Crossing the Threshold of Hope John Paul II states: “Eternal damnation is certainly proclaimed in the Gospel. To what degree is it realized in life beyond the grave? This is, ultimately, a great mystery,” and “even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, ‘It would be better for that man if he had never been born’ (Mt. 26:24), his words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation”(pp. 73 and 186). In August 1999 he stated: “Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.”(13)

The words “whether…human beings are…involved in it” are quite disturbing, since they indicate that John Paul holds out for the possibility that no human beings will be in hell, and logically, this would stem from his apparent belief that all men are saved unless proven otherwise. Obviously, this is a dogmatic error of fact, so much so that in the official compilation of his teachings in book form, the Insengamenti, the phrase “of whether” was taken out. It now reads “the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it.” Thus, even the pope’s own editors caught his error. In any case, it is quite apparent that the pope has done much, short of actually saying that no human beings are in hell, to imply that God may indeed save everyone, or that He already has. In light of this, it is no surprise that one of the pope’s favorite theologians was Hans Urs Von Balthasar, the modernist who became famous for espousing the “hell may be empty” theory in the book Dare We Hope?

When we compare the pope’s statement in L’Osservatore Romano to more traditionally-minded statements, we see a marked contrast. For example, St. Alphonsus Ligouri said of Judas: “Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning” (Preparation for Death, p. 127). The same is true if we compare John Paul’s words to those of the Council of Florence: “It firmly believes, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Mt 25:46], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock…” (DS 714).

*Just a friendly note of warning that the SSPX is in schism. 🙂
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
…However, how would the Church even do such a thing?..
I don’t think She can. While a person is still alive and able to repent, the possibility exists that that person might do so, even in his last seconds, possibly when no outside observer might be able to affirmatively report that such repentance had occurred. Is such the case with Judas? We don’t know and can’t know with certainty from this side of Heaven (or Hell), so I don’t think the Church will ever rule definitively on this.
 
JB.:
I don’t think She can. While a person is still alive and able to repent, the possibility exists that that person might do so, even in his last seconds, possibly when no outside observer might be able to affirmatively report that such repentance had occurred. Is such the case with Judas? We don’t know and can’t know with certainty from this side of Heaven (or Hell), so I don’t think the Church will ever rule definitively on this.
I think that we can know in the case of Judas, though. Our Lord, who knows all, including whether or not Judas would repent in the future, seems to very strongly suggest that Judas is roasting. I’ll take God’s Word for it. 👍
 
Getting back to Adam & Eve, we once received a calendar from a religious community with December 24 being listed as the Feast of Adam & Eve. As I recall there were several other Saints days that did not correspond to the current Liturgical calendar, so I don’t know how authoritative this should be considered.
 
JB.:
I don’t think She can.
I think She could. Considering that She can proclaim saints, the opposite can be said to be true as well. Following your logic:

While a person is still alive and able to reject God, the possibility exists that that person might do so, even in his last seconds, possibly when no outside observer might be able to affirmatively report that such repentance had occurred. Is such the case with even one of the saints?

I suppose it would be possible if the Church weren’t infallible. It’s also not very likely either. Do you really think that any of the saints would ever do such a thing? I sure don’t. The flip side is also true. Almost beyond a shadow of a doubt we can say that it’s not very likely that certain individuals like Judas would ever turn to God. Lastly, this idea of last-minute salvation sounds an awful lot like the Protestant OSAS “accepting Jesus into your heart” deal. What ever happened to salvation being a lifelong journey?
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
I think that we can know in the case of Judas, though. Our Lord, who knows all, including whether or not Judas would repent in the future, seems to very strongly suggest that Judas is roasting. I’ll take God’s Word for it. 👍
And I, given a private interpretation of Scripture that cannot be otherwise verified, will not state as fact that which the Church has not stated as fact. 👍
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
…Almost beyond a shadow of a doubt we can say that it’s not very likely that certain individuals like Judas would ever turn to God…
To say something is “not very likely” is to express a probability. Without any data, there is no basis to presume any probability.
 
JB.:
Without any data, there is no basis to presume any probability.
How about, “it would be better if he was never born”? :rolleyes:

Out of the mouth of God, I might add.
 
JB.:
The Church does, however, teach that another state did exist, sometimes called the Limbo of the Fathers or Abraham’s Bosom, wherein the souls of the just who died before Christ waited until Christ opened Heaven. This state ceased to exist when Heaven was opened after Christ’s death.
This would make sense.
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
I think She could. Considering that She can proclaim saints, the opposite can be said to be true as well…
I disagree. The two situations are dissimilar. Historically, the Church has recognized saints in two ways: first, by local popular acclaim and veneration which was later ratified by the Church, later (and presently) through a formal canonization process. While many individuals in the Church may have believed that Judas is damned, I am aware of no popular acclaimation of his damnation comparable to the popular acclaim of any early Saint, certainly he has never been venerated (how could he be, if he was believed to be damned?), and the Church has never ratified any such recognition.

As to the canonization of saints as observed presently, this requires, among other things, a number of verified miracles obtained through the intercession of the saint to be canonized, as signs. What signs might we expect through the intercession of a damned soul? Who would ask for his intercession? The closest example we have to intercession by the damned is the account of Dives interceding for himself and his brothers, and his requests were refused.
 
40.png
Anonymous_1:
from my understanding, someone please correct me if im wrong but Sheol/Hades are Hebrew and Greek words for place of the dead. They are not the same as Hell as in the lake of fire and eternal seperation from God. It was in this place of the dead that is referred to by Paradise and Abrahams Bosom for the righteous and torment for the unrighteous.
Yes I agree - names aside, same thing.
40.png
Anonymous_1:
Serva, I need to apologize for being so critical of your theology becasue the truth is I don’t know what I am talking about and I was just being arrogant and proud. Please forgive me
OK, sarcasm noted. 😃
 
i wasnt being sarcastic
i was being proud and the truth is i didn’t know what i was talking about.
 
40.png
Marilena:
She told me she never thought Adam and Eve went to hell. I told her I thought they did. Why? Because Adam disobeyed God, and betrayed Him. Adam blamed God, and he knew better. Eve was thoroughly deceived by Satan, but she took the apple. I thought that since they disobeyed God, that they did indeed burn in hell for their actions. Am I wrong?
“SAINTS ADAM AND EVE?” not so long article,

catholicmind.com/articles/saints_adam_and_eve.htm
 
“That upper spirit, Who hath worse punishment,” so spake my guide, “Is Judas, he that hath his head within And plies the feet without. Of th’ other two, Whose heads are under, from the murky jaw Who hangs, is Brutus: lo! how he doth writhe And speaks not! Th’ other Cassius, that appears So large of limb. But night now re-ascends, And it is time for parting. All is seen.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top