did Mary have fallen human nature?

[po18guy]

Please list the sins of Simeon, and Anna the prophetess, who is the daughter of Phanuel (Lk 2:25ff).

I also said “cast the first stone”. Now, let’s take a look at John Baptist’s parents, Elizabeth and Zechariah:

Luke 1:5-6 (New International Version) In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly."

There was no sin within them in the eyes of God. Yet Mary just had to be sinful? Why? If Zechariah and Elizabeth were not sinful, why would Mary have to be? And don’t give me the standard, surgically removed quote from Romans. Paul was quoting Psalm 14. Care to take a look at that? Please read it and consider.

 

[Good_Fella]

If God could keep Mary from the stain of OS, He could keep Jesus from it as well.

Thus, as the church has said, it is not necessary that Mary be immaculately conceived,
but fitting—big difference.

If Mary had not been immaculately conceived, she would have inherited original sin. The Immaculate Conception is just that: being preserved free from inheriting a sinful human nature and being conceived in a state of sanctifying grace. The necessity of the Immaculate Conception was met out of fittingness, whether to protect the child in Mary’s womb from the effects of the sin of Adam or to have the Word of God made flesh carried in a pure and undefiled type of ark, or both.

God directly intervened in Mary’s case because she was in need of a saviour, being implicated in original sin and possessed of only a human nature. The Word made flesh was not originally implicated in the sin of Adam and was not in need of a saviour, having also the Divine nature. So it was not necessary that God directly intervene by having the Son of Man immaculately conceived. In the Incarnation, the Son of Man acquired a human nature that received graces directly from the Divine nature in the hypostatic union within the Divine Person of Jesus. There was no need for God to intervene in the case of someone who not only needed no saviour but was the saviour. To claim that God could have directly intervened by having Jesus preserved free from original sin makes no sense in light of the hypostatic union in Christ, which is not a form of intervention. But this does not necessarily preclude that Jesus’ human nature could have been tainted if his mother had been conceived in the state of original sin. Our Lord’s human nature was essentially and genuinely distinct from his divine nature, having been derived from his human mother, although Jesus was a single person when he walked the earth.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[mercygate]

If God could keep Mary from the stain of OS, He could keep Jesus from it as well.

Thus, as the church has said, it is not necessary that Mary be immaculately conceived,
but fitting—big difference.

The Virgin Birth communicates an ENTIRELY different truth from the Immaculate Conception.

God could have saved the world without the Incarnation, but IF the Incarnation is the means, through the scandal of human flesh, the hypostatic union is required; the divine and human natures both had to be present in their fullness and perfection.

The Immaculate Conception has nothing at all to do with anything even approaching the hypostatic union. The Immaculate Conception treats of *suitability, *while the hypostatic union treats of necessity.

If Catholics and the Orthodox are “guilty” of anything in believing in Mary’s sinlessness, it is of attributing to God greater generosity of grace than He is capable of.

 

[sambos671]

I will start out by saying that I’m generally against the idea that Mary is immaculately concieved or was a perpetual virgin. However, I was studing the book of Judges and came accross the story of Samson. One thing I noticed that I haven’t before was that the angel of the Lord told Samson’s mother that Samson was to be dedicated to the Lord as a Nazerite holding to that solomn vow. What hit me was before Samson was born his mother had to also adhere to the vow. I wonder if the catholic church draws a connection between these two events. Anyone know?

 

[sandusky]

po18guy:

Now, let’s take a look at John Baptist’s parents, Elizabeth and Zechariah:

Luke 1:5-6 (New International Version) In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly."

There was no sin within them in the eyes of God. Yet Mary just had to be sinful? Why? If Zechariah and Elizabeth were not sinful, why would Mary have to be?

The passage does not state that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless, but that they were blameless before the regulations of the Law.

IOW, Zechariah and Elizabeth were faithful to observe the offering of sacrifice(s)
that the law required
FOR THE SINS THEY HAD COMMITTED.

The apostle notes the same truth:**Philippians 3:5-6

…a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

1 Tim 1:15

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.BLAMELESS does not mean SINLESS!**

 

[po18guy]

The passage does not state that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless, but that they were blameless before the regulations of the Law.
IOW, Zechariah and Elizabeth were faithful to observe the offering of sacrifice(s)
that the law required
FOR THE SINS THEY HAD COMMITTED.The apostle notes the same truth:Philippians 3:5-6 …a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 1 Tim 1:15
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.BLAMELESS does not mean SINLESS!

For some odd reason, I tend to prefer the belief of a 1,975 year old church, to that of ???. In judgment I would rather explain to Jesus why I thought too much of His mother, rather than too little, why I venerated her rather than lumped her in with sinners and tax collectors. Just my opinion. All the best with your approach.

 

[sandusky]

For some odd reason, I tend to prefer the belief of a 1,975 year old church, to that of ???.

Unbelievable!

ISTM that you’re one of those people whose never been shown a fact that he couldn’t ignore.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sandusky said:
BLAMELESS does not mean SINLESS!

**They were both Righteous and Blameless.

**SIN **

1. 
   *]to be without a share in
   *]to miss the mark
   *]**to err, be mistaken **
   *]to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
   *]to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
   

   RIGHTEOUS

   1. 
      *]righteous, observing divine laws
      *]in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. 
         *]of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
         *]innocent, faultless, guiltless
         *]**used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life **
         *]approved of or acceptable of God
         
         *]in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
         

         BLAMELESS

         1. blameless, deserving no censure,** free from fault or defect**
         studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=273
         
         Blameless sure looks to be synomous with Sinlessness and calculate being righteous into the equation also…go figure.
         
         **

 

[sandusky]

**They were both Righteous and Blameless.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=273**

Blameless sure looks to be synomous with Sinlessness and calculate being righteous into the equation also…go figure.

You’ve never been shown a context that you can’t ignore!

 

[paramedicgirl]

If God could keep Mary from the stain of OS, He could keep Jesus from it as well.

Thus, as the church has said, it is not necessary that Mary be immaculately conceived,
but fitting—big difference.

The Immaculate Conception is easy to understand if you think of how Jesus would want to preserve His Mother from sin; why would He want to born of a sinner when He could be born of a queen? Why would He want to allow the devil any ammunition against His Mother? It is fitting that God would want a Mother pure from all sin, so He created her spotless.
Hebrews 7:26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Do you not see that it was necessary that Jesus, who came to take away sins, be separated from sinners, so as not to be under the fault of Adam?

Mary was consecrated as a vessel of purity through the grace of God, and because she was heavenly by grace, it was becoming that she should bear the King of Heaven. Mary was conceived without sin, so that Jesus could never be reproached with having a mother who was the slave of the devil.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

“And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.[1]” -Ineffabilis Deus

 

[adam_in_ohio]

"This sublime and singular privilege of the Blessed Virgin, together with her most excellent innocence, purity, holiness and freedom from every stain of sin, as well as the unspeakable abundance and greatness of all heavenly graces, virtues and privileges – these the Fathers beheld in that ark of Noah, which was built by divine command and escaped entirely safe and sound from the common shipwreck of the whole world;[15] in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned’[16] in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully;[17] in that impregnable tower before the enemy, from which hung a thousand bucklers and all the armor of the strong;[18] in that garden enclosed on all sides, which cannot be violated or corrupted by any deceitful plots;[19] as in that resplendent city of God, which has its foundations on the holy mountains;[20] in that most august temple of God, which, radiant with divine splendors, is full of the glory of God;[21] and in very many other biblical types of this kind. In such allusions the Fathers taught that the exalted dignity of the Mother of God, her spotless innocence and her sanctity unstained by any fault, had been prophesied in a wonderful manner.

In like manner did they use the words of the prophets to describe this wondrous abundance of divine gifts and the original innocence of the Virgin of whom Jesus was born. They celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built, and as that Queen who, abounding in delights and leaning on her Beloved, came forth from the mouth of the Most High, entirely perfect, beautiful, most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish. " -Ineffabilis Deus

 

[po18guy]

Unbelievable!

ISTM that you’re one of those people whose never been shown a fact that he couldn’t ignore.

My brother, nothing of what either you or I say makes any difference. The truth is all that matters. And, the Truth is Christ. You have found Him in your church. I am telling you that there is more to Christ than all of the churches added together multiplied by millions! I have found Christ in the Eucharist. I pray before Him. I carry Him in me. He has captivated me.

Please understand that we didn’t pop out of the Catholic factory. Some of us were born into the church, and many of us, perhaps the most on fire, spent years, decades looking around. Then, something dawned on us. A tiny thing occurred in the course of a regular day. It changed us forever.

As I say to every other Christian here, you are a brother or sister in Christ, and I love you because of that. I am telling you that there is more to Christ than any of us will ever know. When I became Catholic, I took the leap of faith, as there was MUCH that I had problems with. Beginning with Mary. The fact that I am here defending her is a MIRACLE! But, such is God’s grace.

The Lord, who is all patience, waited. He revealed, slowly. He has, through the power of love, destroyed all of my objections. It is from this aspect that I try to approach my interaction with fellow Christians. It is extremely hard to do in a forum, but I try.

May Christ’s peace always be with you.

 

[Seagirt]

Are you really suggesting that Gods written word isn’t sufficient for the Christian faith, that God was unable to give us the necessary teaching for the Christian faith in His written word.

.

In Some Sense, that is true. The 27 books of the NT were not finally canonized till about 360 years after the death of Christ. They writings really came out of the emerging Catholic church.

The Calvinist-reformed view that somehow the first generation of Christians walked around with leather covered Holy Bibles and quoted verses is laughable. And not accurate.

 

[allhers]

My brother, nothing of what either you or I say makes any difference. The truth is all that matters. And, the Truth is Christ. You have found Him in your church. I am telling you that there is more to Christ than all of the churches added together multiplied by millions! I have found Christ in the Eucharist. I pray before Him. I carry Him in me. He has captivated me.

Please understand that we didn’t pop out of the Catholic factory. Some of us were born into the church, and many of us, perhaps the most on fire, spent years, decades looking around. Then, something dawned on us. A tiny thing occurred in the course of a regular day. It changed us forever.

As I say to every other Christian here, you are a brother or sister in Christ, and I love you because of that. I am telling you that there is more to Christ than any of us will ever know. When I became Catholic, I took the leap of faith, as there was MUCH that I had problems with. Beginning with Mary. The fact that I am here defending her is a MIRACLE! But, such is God’s grace.

The Lord, who is all patience, waited. He revealed, slowly. He has, through the power of love, destroyed all of my objections. It is from this aspect that I try to approach my interaction with fellow Christians. It is extremely hard to do in a forum, but I try.

May Christ’s peace always be with you.

AWESOME, and you sure don’t make it look hard to do. Thanks be to God!!!

 

[allhers]

…and to emeraldisle, we understand that you have Jesus in His Word, and we thank God for that, what we want you to understand however, is that we Catholics have HIM, HE, HIMSELF, the fullness of Truth. That is why in our Mass we have both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

 

[allhers]

If Mary was conceived without sin did she still bare the effects of original sin?

…and to you Jacob, our OP, I sure hope all of your questions were answered here by the many fine posters that you have encountered with their witness and the proof and the love that we have for our Dear Lord Jesus and His Blessed Mother.

 

[emeraldisle]

The best book anyone can read to fully understand the dogmas of the Blessed Virgin Mary is The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori.

The best Book to read to find out Gods Truth about Mary is His written word, the Scriptures.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

The necessity of the Immaculate Conception was met out of fittingness,

Was it “fitting” for the Son of God to humble Himself in taking on flesh, in being born in a stable, in eating and drinking with sinners, in riding on a donkey into Jerusalem, in being mocked and spat upon by those He created, in hanging naked on the cross, in bearing our sin on Himself, the sinless One.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Mary was conceived without sin, so that Jesus could never be reproached with having a mother who was the slave of the devil.

The Lord Jesus came into this world to save sinners like you, me and Mary.

Salvation is of the Lord

Salvation is not of the Lord + Mary

No where in Gods written word does it say that Mary had to be sinless to enable God to save sinners.

.