Did Mother Mary have other children?

[Dokimas]

If you are concerned about the word until being miss translated it is not. Its the Greek word eos and means until.

Mat 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus

You can twist and turn all you want but the translation is accurate and means exactly what it infers.

JPaul1953,

Let’s apply what you infer to other verses with the same Greek word and construction… Let’s see what they say usning your inference.​

2193 = heos - till, until​

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Joseph never knew Mary in a complete way.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Mary, Joseph and Jesus never left Egypt.

Mt 10:11 "Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till <2193> you go out. They never left those sities.

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. After paying his debt, he stayed in jail.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” They never told of the vision.

Mt 23:39 “for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till <2193> you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” They never saw and never will see Jesus again.

Mt 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while <2193> I go and pray over there.” They never stood up and spent the rest of their days in Gethsemane sitting.

 

[Bill_Pick]

BTW, of course no matter what I say or, if possible, how brilliant my logic is, if it reveals you can’t use this verse to say Jesus was an only child of Mary and Joseph, you already have your mind made up.​

Doki and the question asked of you that you must have missed. It’s highlighted: “Silly person … no, Jerusalem was not pierced!!! However it was those of Jerusalem that mourned like a person that lost an only child or a first born child. Was Jerusalem the parent of Jesus? I think you’ve not compared ‘apples with apples’.”​

Zech12:
9 ¶ "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
11 "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.​

It does prophesy that Jesus would be pierced and that He’d be looked upon.​

I goes on to compare how the inhabitants of Jerusalem will mourn when they look upon the crucified Jesus: as anyone would mourn the loss of an only son (doesn’t say children so daughters aren’t ruled out) and grieve as one loosing a firstborn.

You are right on the money saying I will not believe and here is why

This verse is showing the level of grief and bitterness the Jewish people will exhibit when Messiah appears. How extreme and total the devastation will be to their being. It will be the mourning equivalent of the death for an only son and the manner of grief for the death of the first born son
I hope you can understand this verse I know you are cof used but it is a very simple verse my 5 years old daughter got it in two trys

 

[Bill_Pick]

You are right on the money saying I will not believe and here is why

This verse is showing the level of grief and bitterness the Jewish people will exhibit when Messiah appears. How extreme and total the devastation will be to their being. It will be the mourning equivalent of the death for an only son and the manner of grief for the death of the first born son
I hope you can understand this verse I know you are cof used but it is a very simple verse my 5 years old daughter got it in two trys

Who is the only Son

 

[jericho777]

JPaul1953,

Let’s apply what you infer to other verses with the same Greek word and construction… Let’s see what they say usning your inference.​

2193 = heos - till, until​

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Joseph never knew Mary in a complete way.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Mary, Joseph and Jesus never left Egypt.

Mt 10:11 "Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till <2193> you go out. They never left those sities.

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. After paying his debt, he stayed in jail.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” They never told of the vision.

Mt 23:39 “for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till <2193> you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” They never saw and never will see Jesus again.

Mt 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while <2193> I go and pray over there.” They never stood up and spent the rest of their days in Gethsemane sitting.

That’s not fair you are using the word in context to show what it means…You are gonna pay for this!!

 

[jericho777]

Who is the only Son

This is a metaphor to show the relationship between Messiah and the level of grief the Jewish people will feel. It never says He is the only son it says He is as an only son. None of the translations including the Douay-Rhemis (Catholic) say he is they say he is as there is a big difference in the meaning. Thats why we use specific words because they mean different things.

"This verse is showing the level of grief and bitterness the Jewish people will exhibit when Messiah appears. How extreme and total the devastation will be to their being. It will be the mourning equivalent of the death for an only son and the manner of grief for the death of the first born son " Bill if you are going to use my words please give me credit for them. Are you sure you really ment to use this it is backing up what Dokimus is saying

 

[Dokimas]

Who is the only Son

God had only One Begotten Son - Jesus. That’s all we know.

 

[Dokimas]

You are right on the money saying I will not believe and here is why

Then why the sob story about be teaching you because of your inability to understand???

 

[Dokimas]

I hope you can understand this verse I know you are cof WHAT? used but it is a very simple verse my 5 years old daughter got it in two trys

Going form self-abasement in your last post to me to self-exaltation in this one. Interesting.​

This verse is showing the level of grief and bitterness the Jewish people will exhibit when Messiah appears. How extreme and total the devastation will be to their being. It will be the mourning equivalent of the death for an only son and the manner of grief for the death of the first born son

Yep, this verse has nothing to do with Jesus being Mary’s only Son. Good point.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Dokimas:

You need a bible lesson. The Church (Catholic) is the body of Christ on earth. You are correct that your church is but a church, but the Catholic Church is the working body of Christ as said by Christ and by Paul.

The Bible doesn’t teach the CC is THE body of Christ on earth.

Yeah, it really does.

First, how many churches did Jesus promise to build? Only one according to Matthew 16:18-19. So, there is only ONE Church.

Second, how many bodies does Jesus have? Only one.

[1 Corinthians 12:13](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+12:13&version=NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Third, does scripture co-relate the One Church with the One Body? You betcha.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Colossians 1:24
*Paul’s Labor for the Church *] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

So, the one Church is the Body of Christ; the one Body of Christ is the Church. And, yes, that one Church has a name, the name it has been known by since the end of the first century (within the lifetime of the last living Apostle, John): the Catholic Church.

There is only one Chruch that is the body of Christ…the Catholic Church.

Interesting that it’s the CC that teaches that: sort of circular reasoning. This is a major reason I would not become a catholic, its claims of being the only.

You can go your own way if you want to. Scripture says, “they all like sheep have gone astray.” As for me, I prefer to remain within the one flock under the guidance of the one Shepherd established by Jesus: Peter (cf. John 21:15-19).

 

[Dokimas]

Yeah, it really does.

First, how many churches did Jesus promise to build? Only one according to Matthew 16:18-19. So, there is only ONE Church.

Second, how many bodies does Jesus have? Only one.

[1 Corinthians 12:13](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+12:13&version=NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Third, does scripture co-relate the One Church with the One Body? You betcha.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Colossians 1:24
*Paul’s Labor for the Church *] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

So, the one Church is the Body of Christ; the one Body of Christ is the Church. And, yes, that one Church has a name, the name it has been known by since the end of the first century (within the lifetime of the last living Apostle, John): the Catholic Church.

You can go your own way if you want to. Scripture says, “they all like sheep have gone astray.” As for me, I prefer to remain within the one flock under the guidance of the one Shepherd established by Jesus: Peter (cf. John 21:15-19).

It’s your opinion and I respectfully disagree.

 

[Randy_Carson]

JPaul1953,

Let’s apply what you infer to other verses with the same Greek word and construction… Let’s see what they say usning your inference.​

2193 = heos - till, until​

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Joseph never knew Mary in a complete way.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Mary, Joseph and Jesus never left Egypt.

Mt 10:11 "Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till <2193> you go out. They never left those sities.

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. After paying his debt, he stayed in jail.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” They never told of the vision.

Mt 23:39 “for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till <2193> you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” They never saw and never will see Jesus again.

Mt 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while <2193> I go and pray over there.” They never stood up and spent the rest of their days in Gethsemane sitting.

Eric Svendsen advanced this argument in the 1990’s, but his efforts were demolished by John Pacheco. You can read all about it here:

Heos Hou and the Protestant Polemic
By John Pacheco
catholic-legate.com/articles/heoshou.html

An exhaustive explanation of the Greek phrase heos hou [until] found in Matthew 1:24-25.

Sorry, boys, but the professional anti-Catholics don’t make this mistake any more.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand you believe that the Bible teaches what you believe, but that doesn’t mean It really does.

Prove me wrong or stop making assertions.

How many churches did Jesus promise to build?

How many bodies does Jesus have?

Are the Church and the Body different ways of referring to the same thing?

 

[jericho777]

Prove me wrong or stop making assertions.

How many churches did Jesus promise to build?

How many bodies does Jesus have?

Are the Church and the Body different ways of referring to the same thing?

There are seven churches mentioned in Revelations.

There is one body Christ is the head but there are 10 fingers ,10 toes, 2 arms,2 legs and so on.

As you describe Church no. The Church is an organization where as the body is made up of individual believers brought together to help each other and share the gospel with the world.

 

[Dokimas]

There are seven churches mentioned in Revelations.

There is one body Christ is the head but there are 10 fingers ,10 toes, 2 arms,2 legs and so on.

As you describe Church no. The Church is an organization where as the body is made up of individual believers brought together to help each other and share the gospel with the world.

Reminds me of 1 Corinthians 12. one Body - many members; unity in diversity.

 

[Dokimas]

[SIGN]

Original post – Randy

[/SIGN]

Prove me wrong or stop making assertions.

You don’t believe what the CC teaches you?

How many churches did Jesus promise to build?

One; I don’t find where it’s called the Catholic Church.

How many bodies does Jesus have?

One; with many members (see 1 Corithians 12)

Are the Church and the Body different ways of referring to the same thing?

Yes, IMO.​

BTW, how’m I doing with the ""s?

 

[Randy_Carson]

There are seven churches mentioned in Revelations.

How many churches did Jesus promise to build? (Hint: He told us in Matthew 16:19-19)

There is one body Christ is the head but there are 10 fingers ,10 toes, 2 arms,2 legs and so on.

One Body. Good.

As you describe Church no. The Church is an organization where as the body is made up of individual believers brought together to help each other and share the gospel with the world.

Oh…is it a visible body with structure and leadership or an invisible body made up of all believers regardless of denomination or doctrine?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You don’t believe what the CC teaches you?

Please show me where anything I have written is contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches.

One; I don’t find where it’s called the Catholic Church.

Perhaps because you have not been taught where to look.

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as the Way (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those who followed Christ began to be called Christians beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

As early as 107 A.D., that same group was referred to as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. That means that the Christian assembly was probably calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century.

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day.

As a side note, it is interesting that the believers in Antioch coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church”.

One; with many members (see 1 Corithians 12)

Your qualifier does not disprove my point. There is one body and one church. Period.

Yes, IMO.

Excellent. This is why Catholics can say that the one Church is the Body of Christ.

BTW, how’m I doing with the ""s?

Much better. Thanks for working at this.

 

[Dokimas]

;6150156:

original post: Randy Carson

Please show me where anything I have written is contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches.

Hold it a minute. I didn’t say you did. That was my point. Notice the ‘?’ after my sentence? I was responding to you telling me I was asserting something wrong about you. My original point was that your undetstanding was from you church.

Perhaps because you have not been taught where to look.

On the contrary; the place to look is the Bible for the Word of Life.

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as the Way (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those who followed Christ began to be called Christians beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

I found that info in the Bible.

As early as 107 A.D., that same group was referred to as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Meaning ‘universal’???​

BTW, this is exactly why I posted the way I did and that you and others didn’t like … I quoted you but what I said that you responded to does not show. How do I know what I said you are responding to without quite a bit of work?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Going form self-abasement in your last post to me to self-exaltation in this one. Interesting.​

Yep, this verse has nothing to do with Jesus being Mary’s only Son. Good point.

This verse predicts the Messia will be an only child, Christianity held that Jesus is Mary only Son.

 

[Dokimas]

This verse predicts the Messia will be an only child, Christianity held that Jesus is Mary only Son.

Take care not to read into the Bble something that’s not there.