Disagreeing with Canceling Holy Week

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puer.dei said:
What worries me is that there seem to be people who either don’t understand that, or just flat don’t care.
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Exactly. This terrifies me. There’s a reason that governments are enforcing no groups of people, to try to reduce the spread. Peoples lives are at risk and that’s why Mass needs to be cancelled until this is under control
 
Anyone you come in contact with outside church- your family or people you encounter at the grocery store
 
I am sorry for my attitude and tone, VonDerTann. I hope you will forgive me venting my frustration. I may be wrong about other things, but I was certainly wrong to respond the way I did.

I hope you will hear me out one time.

Everyone here believes in saving lives. I do too. But what is truly the best way?

I question the methods adopted by authorities. I do have reasons though I am one non-expert. But there many doctors and epidemiologists who also question what is happening.

Also, I didn’t say that babies can’t catch the disease, I said that the WHO study reported no fatalities among children under 9. That doesn’t mean it is not possible and of course, the infections are not over and the report is not complete. But I believe it also incorrect, wrong, to say that Everyone is being killed by this disease. That is not what is happening.

Many things are possible. I have four children. I know there are so many ways they could be hurt or killed and I truly am sorry for any death for any cause in any family.

But how afraid should I be? What are the risks of the virus compared to other risks? If I am going to take drastic measures to keep my children and other people safe, which measures? How far do I go?

Someone said that my mentioning deaths by suicide and heart attacks had no relevance. I realize they are not contagious. They are much easier to control than a contagious disease.

Why do these other numbers matter? I am trying to put the various risks into some sort of context. Everything we do in life incurs some sort of risk of life and limb to ourselves and others. Which ones do we choose to worry about and at what cost? If we don’t look at the actual numbers the answers to these already difficult questions are even more difficult.

Let me use another example. In 2018 (the most recent year reported) 36,560 people died from traffic accidents in the United States. About 3,000 people per month. And this happens every single year. It kills young and old alike.

During pre-corona times, I was risking the lives of my children, and *of other people on the road, every single time I drove them to school, or church, or to a soccer game. And the risk was much greater and struck more indiscriminately than the current risks from this disease.

How about risks that are completely discretionary? Should I ever take my children swimming, for example?

3,710 people died by drowning (non boating accidents) in the US in 2018. It is the number one cause of death for children under 4.

I am getting too long. Let me repeat my apology and repeat that I am not intending to diminish the tragedy of any death.

I am questioning the balance and veracity of the news and the true intentions of our government. Just as I allow myself to ask questions every time a secular reporter quotes the pope out of context, I allow myself to question the NYTimes, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, etc. when they tell me to be very afraid, to “cancel everything.”

Their values are not mine. It’s good for me to remember that even saints have been in opposition on political issues during confusing times. And I am sorry again that I fell victim to being rude.
 
Hi Phil,

I know they are not contagious. I did not explain myself well enough. I was trying to put numbers up for reference. Context does matter. For example, if far more people in the world are dying of hunger every day than from this disease (which is true according to all sites I can find), ought we to consider how shutting down entire economies will affect those who are starving?

How afraid should we be? What measures at what cost are reasonable? If we are taking these extreme measures with extreme unknown costs only to “flatten the curve,” why are we not taking other extreme measures to truly prevent deaths we know we can prevent altogether?
 
Apology accepted, T.

The virus is BAD. As I’ve indicated elsewhere, this is as bad as any of us will likely ever see and it’s growing worse. Tractor trailers for the bodies? State police rounding up people with NY plates on their cars? Welcome to coronavirus, 2020.

Your concerns are not inappropriate, particularly since the media is so anti-Trump they want bad news to blame on him.

My issue, by contrast, is really with 2 groups of people: 1) those with the stubborn belief that their right to mass trumps everyone else’s rights; to me, that attitude alone is borderline sinful, as well as arrogant; and 2) those who see this as some sort of vast attack on their personal civil liberties.

It doesn’t help when the internet peanut gallery, many of whom fall into group 1, fall over themselves within this plan or that plan to “get mass going again.” Candidly, i find those plans harebrained, especially the more their proponents are questioned. Coming up with some bizarre ideas of how we’re going to expand masses from 2/day to 15/day and sell tickets; or have masses where everyone stands 6 feet from another in a parking lot, like that’s going to help anything, while sitting in a warm house waiting for a $1200 check to arrive, is insulting to anybody working this and living with fear and death on a minute by minute basis.
 
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I just want to point out that my diocese tried that, and it may not have stopped people from getting sick. If someone carries a disease communicable disease asymptomatically they can still pass the disease.
 
Tucci said:
How afraid should we be? What measures at what cost are reasonable?
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Extreme measures was what worked in China. Simple as that.
If we are taking these extreme measures with extreme unknown costs only to “flatten the curve,” why are we not taking other extreme measures to truly prevent deaths we know we can prevent altogether?
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You could say the same to justify not taking the extreme measures when terrorism (another deadly disease) came on 9/11. Coronavirus has the characteristics of terrorism.
 
The Eastern Catholic Church of the Republic of Georgia is keeping Her Churches going…
Orthodox Patriarchate of Tbilisi and all Georgia has denied any possibility of closing down the churches and interruption of the Divine Worship services. Such ideas, the Patriarchate has called “unjustified offense against God.”
The Patriarchate will take sanitizing prevention measures and will reduce the number of worshipers during services, especially in the small churches, where the priests are asked, if possible, to worship outside the church.
The churches of God must not be closed, especially during trials.
“In particular, those who do not have the appropriate knowledge or faith in the spiritual significance of the Sacrament are opposed to the thousand-year-old practice of Communion,” the Georgian Patriarchate states.

“Communion from one chalice is the highest confirmation of the love and unity of the flock with Christ, and those who refuse this, refuse the Savior,” the statement emphasizes, though adding that, “We understand that some may be hindered by the propaganda that is taking place in the world today and in our country.”

Those who are sick can stay home and call upon their priest to visit them and bring them Holy Communion, if they so desire.
geo
 
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VonDerTann said:
those who see this as some sort of vast attack on their personal civil liberties.
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I am with Tucci on this. While I will continue to be obedient to my church and not go to Mass, I must point out that in the states where governors and mayors are fining people and putting them in jail for violating the guidelines they are 100% in fact violating their civil liberties. Governors and mayors are both part of the executive branches of government and do not and cannot make laws. They can only enforce laws that have been passed by Congress at the state level. And until laws are created, or martial law is declared, they are in direct violation of the US Constitution and every single person who has been fined or thrown in jail should file an legal case against their state.

And so you understand, I’m not advocating everyone should simply start kissing and breathing on each other. What I’m stating is that you are unequivocally wrong in that statement.
 
Joe, if you are so convinced your civil rights are being violated, sue someone. The courts are open (likely via electronic filing, but they’re open) and that’s one reason why this ISNT a conspiracy: if it was, those too would be closed.

Virtually all executive officers have some capability to act unilaterally in an emergency.

Once again, if you really believe your rights have been trodden on, see a lawyer or file a pro se suit yourself.
 
What makes you think there aren’t laws on the books in all states allowing for these emergency orders? I’m pretty sure they’ve existed for a long time. I’d bet they also have limits put on them to protect the people from an abusive government.
Martial law can only be used in a wartime scenario, if ordered by Congress, or by the President if not stopped by Congress. It cannot be used anywhere the courts are open.
 
Yes, the only way to stop this thing is to not give it opportunities to spread.
Hospitals in many cities are already overloaded.
 
Cajunjoy, what I really think this one falls under is the concept of, “I have the RIGHT to act as I want; the government won’t tell me otherwise!”

I also wonder about the bona fides of some of these folks. What do I mean? There’ll always be a Catholic Church. But what if you’re some storefront church with a few members and there’s 20 competing churches within an hour? Maybe you do something to be “that one” to separate yourself from others,
Including 5 years from now.

For that matter I wonder: lots of folks are demanding mass be open. But it cuts both ways. Those same people who want mass: how would they feel if the folks who want services were, say, Mormons? Jews? Seventh-day Adventists (who are notoriously anti-catholic)? Someone you know would blame the Catholics for the virus in the most inflammatory rhetoric possible?

Food for thought.
 
The worst part is…like some on this thread…they’ll show up. If people didn’t show up…they wouldn’t have services.

Do you or @(name removed by moderator) know any new news on the pastor from Tampa that basically did the same thing (and said he installed “technology”) to keep the church safe from spread? Did he end up holding more services? I know he turned himself in, but got right back out on bond. Whole thing took 30 min.
 
I am very good at repeating myself, so I shall. A deja vu redux, if you will.
Through the envy of the devil, death entered the world.
  • Wisdom 2:24
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Angry? Upset? Miffed? Who should be the object of our animosity? Who should we pray against? Who should we work against?

The devil.

Pray that he and his family are quarantined in their home.
 
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I don’t think the legal issue will be solved until long after the crisis. It may be some state emergency statutes will be overturned or upheld.
 
I came down with a terrible virus in January of this year. One week later, my 89 year-old Dad came down with it (I’m his caregiver). Initially, we both came down with fevers, then a cough, and we both still felt wiped out for about 4 weeks total, before all was well. I avoided Church after I got better, just because “it’s that time of year” when the Mass is full of coughing/sick people. The priest even said at the last Mass I attended that they would not be serving the Blood of Christ during Communion because of everyone being sick with colds and viruses…this until Easter. Not to be a bad Catholic, but I must confess that I miss alot of Mass between Christmas and Easter, because I don’t like getting sick, and a packed Church, although the house of God, can be full of germs during this time of year.

I can deal with watching online Mass. In fact, I really enjoy it because it’s so personal, but I really would like to go to confession, but that’s not going to happen til I feel it’s safer to go out, since I take care of my old father.

I think we just all have to come to grips and deal with this. It’s very hard, but as we all know if you’re going to be close to Jesus, you’re going to suffer, and suffering we all are. Offer up all this turmoil to God, and pray, pray, pray. He understands what we’re all going through. He’s there for us now, just as much as if we were at Church and times were normal.

Pray!
 
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Can you do that though?

They guy in Tampa was “in custody” for about half an hour.
 
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