Discerning homosexuality & same sex marriage in the light of the gospel.

[Robert_in_SD]

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your beliefs on the difficult subject of same sex marriage. For years I held the same position as yourself. However, I have started a journey to reexamine the issue by searching the Scriptures in context of the Levitical Law, the gospel, and central themes in the Bible.

Sexual sin of this nature is not simply a matter of ritual impurity. It is a violation of the natural law. I don’t think it falls into the same category as the lengthy of one’s philactories or whether we eat pork or drink blood. Rather, the fundamental nature of the act is disordered at a natural level… the acts are closed to the possibility of life and they are contrary to the complementarity of male and female. That’s not to say that persons’ feelings towards someone of the same gender are easily dismissed. Rather, from an objective point of view, the urges are disordered from the standpoint of natural law.
2nd Adam:

The Church has a history of sinfully discrimating against certain groups, such as women, the divorced, slavery, Africians, and other forms of minorities.

Again, you are confusing the act with the actor. The Church is very clear that people who suffer from same sex attraction should not be the target of persecution or discrimination, and must be respected:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (CCC 2358)​

2nd Adam:

I personally don’t believe the issue is as clear cut that many of you make it. That is why you are seeing many different Christian churches divided over the issue of same sex marriage, and the place of Christian homosexuals in the church.

I think that the issue is logically quite clear. However, the issue is one that is filled from all sides with emotions like pride, anger, lust and fear. I think the primary reason why we see som many different churches conceding the argument to the pro-gay marriage point of view is fear - of reprisal, of public hatred and ridicule, and of being labelled with the term bigot or fear-monger. On the contrary, I think the healthiest thing to do is sit down and have a very healthy and frank conversation about the issue - in which people speak the truth in charity and respect. It is not a proper answer to compromise the truth for the sake of a “unity” that is grounded in falsity.
2nd Adam:

In the wisdom of Augustine, I cannot say that the topic of same sex marriage is an essential doctrine of the Faith.

I think that sexual sin of this nature is a serious sin that jeopardizes the souls of millions of people who are now being told - falsely - by people in authority - that their actions are not sinful. Because it is sin of such a grave nature, I think it cannot simply be dismissed as a “non-essential” of the faith. It is an issue that - at its heart confronts a time-honored moral teaching of the Church that comes to us without change from the time of the Apostles.

I believe you are sincere in your desire to be inclusive of all persons and to turn none away. However, I think you need to disengage the act from the actor. It’s one thing to say to the alcoholic - you are welcome in this Church. It’s another thing alltogether for the Church to say to the alcoholic - “C’mon in … drinks are on the house.” The former is Christian - and oriented towards love of the person, the latter is cruel and ignores the person’s weakness - ultimately leading the person further from Christ.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. - the above analogy does not mean to imply any defect of character or personality in persons with same-sex attraction. I was merely trying to illustrate the devastating impact of ignoring (and implicitly condoning) sinful urges.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Just a reminder to all:

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised (homosexuals, handicap, mentally challenged, poor, unattractive, sickly, down and out) in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

• Paul

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Just a reminder to all:

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

But there is still a distinction between sin and chastity - whether you are Jew, Greek, male or female. Nor does this passage stand for the proposition that there is no complimentarity as between men and women. It indicates that all have the same standing before God - who are in Christ.
2nd Adam:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

The wisdom of this age says that we should re-define marriage to include the union of two people of the same gender. The wisdom of next year may want to re-define it again to include more than two people, as long as they consent. This is the “wisdom” of the wise. The truth does not change. Marriage is as it was in the beginning. It will not change no matter what governments and the “wise” and “compassionate” say it should be. I think these passages should be read from the heart of the Church.
2nd Adam:

…we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yes. Amen to this. Christ was crucified for the forgiveness of sins. That does not mean we can turn our backs and close our eyes when our brothers and sisters fall back into sin. It means we have an obligation to help them see their sins and correct their behavior. Recognizing “gay marriage” would be a failure to live up to that obligation. It would be a cruel and misleading falsity.
2nd Adam:

… “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Amen! The lowly in this world is not the gay rights lobby. They are loved by government and media. The despised is not the gay man or the lesbian, because they are accepted and embraced by the “wise” of the world. Those who are the stumbling block in the scenario of “gay marriage” are not these, but the ones who stand against it. It is these people who are mocked and scorned and misunderstood and abused for saying they believe in the traditional definition of marriage. They do this not for their own gain, but knowing that it will cost them loss. They do it because their only boast is in the Lord.

I’ve seen nothing in Scripture or in the argument for gay marriage that supports the position except the insane rationale that just because any two people love each other they earn the right to call their union a marriage. That’s not the definition of marriage - except perhaps to the wise of the world.

Peace,
Robert

 

[jpk1313]

Marriage is a sacrement given to use by god. no human whether they be pope, presedent, judge or whoever has the authority to change the meaning. if the state issues a marriage licence to a same sex couple they are not really married they have just entered into a social contract allowing them to share property, that is not marriage. marrige is about bringing life into the world it is a vocation meant to continue the human race. Look at all the faiths around the world even the pagans made the vows before whatever god they belived in becuse marrige is the earthly image of how god communicates with the human soul via the spirit entering the soul becoming one “flesh” and bringing life. Same sex couples are by their very nature are in oppostion to life which is why god called it an abomanation. sexual actions must be open to life for the act to be moral, this is showen way back in gen when onan spilt his seed instead of planting it in his wife.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam, what do you make of these verses and Paul’s understanding of marriage?​

1 Corinthians 7:
1 ¶ Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

I’m familar with 1 Cor 7. It is also a challenge to understand the status of children from a household of faith in light of 1 cor 7. The unbelieving spouse and children are sanctified through one believing spouse. Children of a household of faith are clean and holy, and unbelieving children are unclean. I took your verses as instructions for a married couple in regards to sex within marriage.

 

[garysibio]

I have been participating on the “Problems with Protestantism” thread and the topic of homosexuality and same sex marriage came up. I did not want the topic of homosexuality to overrun that thread, so I created it here. There are 8 verses in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. Jesus never addresses homosexuality, or explicitly discusses same sex marriage. When you examine the 8 verses in Scripture on homosexuality in context of the entire Bible, redemptive history, and the gospel of God’s grace for sinners… I believe Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, etc) have a tendency to move from a Christ-centered gospel to a moral gospel and a moral agenda. Even the idea of a traditional family leaves out most of the godly families we find in the Old Testament since most do not fit in the 21st century traditonal family mold… Have at it guys, but share with kindness and respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a very relevant topic in our generation.

I have to ask you how many passages do you need to address the the issue? It seems to me that God’s view of homosexuality is clearly revealed to us in the Bible. I’m also curious about your distinction between a Christ-centered gospel and a moral gospel. God is the one who decides what is moral and what is not.

You say that Jesus didn’t address the issue of homosexuality but, when He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more He only has a problem with heterosexual immorality?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have to ask you how many passages do you need to address the the issue? It seems to me that God’s view of homosexuality is clearly revealed to us in the Bible. I’m also curious about your distinction between a Christ-centered gospel and a moral gospel. God is the one who decides what is moral and what is not.

You say that Jesus didn’t address the issue of homosexuality but, when He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more He only has a problem with heterosexual immorality?

To take a step back, I believe all sex outside of marriage is sin. God alone determines what is moral. I’m not sure if sex within same sex marriage is sin for the Christian homosexual couple who have been married in the church. I think the two verses in Levitcus is one of 600 laws specific for the Israelites. When Paul addresses homosexuality, what kind of homosexuality was he talking about. Romans 1 can also mean an orgie in the name of Baal, which was common practice in his day. In Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that the sins of Sodom is revealed in Ezkiel.

 

[garysibio]

The “Jesus didn’t say anything about x, y, z” argument is sooooo worn out already.

Jesus didn’t warn against paedophilia or incest, although these abominations are condemned by St Paul and others throughout scripture. I take it Jesus must really approve of the aforesaid acts as he remained silent on condemning them.

Just deal with the truth in scripture: Homosexual acts are an abomination. Period. Is it a difficult cross to carry? Yes. But acting on it will bar one from entry into heaven.

Let’s stop obfuscating.

Very good points.

One thing I hear all the time that is also false is that heterosexual sins are just as bad as homosexual sins. This is not quite true. They are both mortal sins and either one can result in our spending eternity in Hell but, in addition to being a violation of God’s moral law, homosexual acts also violate natural law. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered which also means they are an act against human nature.

 

[garysibio]

Okay, I will post a reference to all of the Scriptures in reference to homosexuality. It would be interesting to note that there is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is equivanlent to the English word homosexual. I believe the world was coined about 100 years ago and first appeared in the Bible in the 1946 Revised Standard Version according to a book that I have read. Any Catholic scholar out there willing to verify what I wrote above?

It is not being a homosexual - that is, being tempted by homosexuality, that is sinful - it is the physical act that is sinful. I don’t know if you are accurate about the origin of the word ‘homosexual’ but it is irrelevant since being homosexual is not a sin.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Very good points.

One thing I hear all the time that is also false is that heterosexual sins are just as bad as homosexual sins. This is not quite true. They are both mortal sins and either one can result in our spending eternity in Hell but, in addition to being a violation of God’s moral law, homosexual acts also violate natural law. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered which also means they are an act against human nature.

Please help me out here since I am Protestant. I need to understand your distinction between mortal sin and venial sin. We know God judged Sodom and destroyed it. Yet in Ezekiel, we know the actual sins God judged Sodom by destroying the city. Do you know what are the sins of Sodom according to Scripture? Jesus also confirms the sins of Sodom too. Also note of the sins menitoned in the Genesis account right after the destruction of Sodom commited by the daughters of Lot.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is not being a homosexual - that is, being tempted by homosexuality, that is sinful - it is the physical act that is sinful. I don’t know if you are accurate about the origin of the word ‘homosexual’ but it is irrelevant since being homosexual is not a sin.

Help us out here, because I don’t believe there is an orignal Greek and Hebrew equivalency for our English word of “homosexual”.

 

[Dokimas]

I’m familar with 1 Cor 7. It is also a challenge to understand the status of children from a household of faith in light of 1 cor 7. The unbelieving spouse and children are sanctified through one believing spouse. Children of a household of faith are clean and holy, and unbelieving children are unclean. I took your verses as instructions for a married couple in regards to sex within marriage.

Look at who’s having sex in marriage: men with women, not men with men or women with women… That’s the point and the subject of this thread.

 

[Dokimas]

Just a reminder to all:

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised (homosexuals, handicap, mentally challenged, poor, unattractive, sickly, down and out) in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

• Paul

Please explain how this has anything to do with this thread.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Look at who’s having sex in marriage: men with women, not men with men or women with women… That’s the point and the subject of this thread.

Same sex marriage is legal in some of the states in America. Same sex marriage is more common around the world. Therefore, I’m not sure what you mean by your post.

 

[garysibio]

Same sex marriage is legal in some of the states in America. Same sex marriage is more common around the world. Therefore, I’m not sure what you mean by your post.

Same-sex marriage is an oxymoron. Just because some governmental body thinks it can decree it into existence doesn’t make it any more real than a square circle.

 

[garysibio]

To take a step back, I believe all sex outside of marriage is sin. God alone determines what is moral. I’m not sure if sex within same sex marriage is sin for the Christian homosexual couple who have been married in the church. I think the two verses in Levitcus is one of 600 laws specific for the Israelites. When Paul addresses homosexuality, what kind of homosexuality was he talking about. Romans 1 can also mean an orgie in the name of Baal, which was common practice in his day. In Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that the sins of Sodom is revealed in Ezkiel.

Great rationalizations. Don’t like what Scripture says, you can always find some way of ignoring the plain truth. There is no such thing as a gay marriage. The phrase is an oxymoron.

 

[garysibio]

Please help me out here since I am Protestant. I need to understand your distinction between mortal sin and venial sin. We know God judged Sodom and destroyed it. Yet in Ezekiel, we know the actual sins God judged Sodom by destroying the city. Do you know what are the sins of Sodom according to Scripture? Jesus also confirms the sins of Sodom too. Also note of the sins menitoned in the Genesis account right after the destruction of Sodom commited by the daughters of Lot.

The concept of mortal and venial sins comes from 1 John 5:16-17, “If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.”

Mortal sins are the sins that lead to death meaning spiritual death, separation from God for all eternity unless forgiven. Venial sins, sins that don’t lead to death, are relatively minor although not to be taken lightly since they make it easier to fall into mortal sin.

I assume this is the passage in Ezekiel that you are talking about. You didn’t specify.

Ezek 16:48-50 “As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.”

Some gay apologists use this passage to make the claim that the real sin of Sodom was not homosexuality but, rather, inhospitality. A close look at the passage shows that this is not the case. Yes, the people of Sodom were inhospitable. They did not help the needy. However, their inhospitality had been a way of life. It wasn’t a one-time thing that happened when the angels came to the city. It was when they tried to have sex with them, whom they believed to be men, that God destroyed the city. Verse 50 says that God destroyed the city because of an abomination it had committed. If inhospitality was that abomination, God would have already destroyed the city. The abomination was their desire to engage in homosexual acts.

I’m not sure what your point is regarding the sin committed by Lot’s daughters after they fled Sodom. The fact that they also sinned does not negate or even lessen the sin of Sodom.

 

[garysibio]

Help us out here, because I don’t believe there is an orignal Greek and Hebrew equivalency for our English word of “homosexual”.

The Greek word for homosexual is arsenokoitēs. According to Strong’s and Thayer’s, it means one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual.

The Hebrew does not seem to have a word for homosexual but uses a phrase something like “a man who lies with a man as with a woman” or “saw the nakedness of.” The latter was a Hebrew euphemism for a sex act regardless of who took part. In Gen 9:22 we see that Ham had sex with his passed out father and his descendants were cursed because of it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Same-sex marriage is an oxymoron. Just because some governmental body thinks it can decree it into existence doesn’t make it any more real than a square circle.

I think you guys completely ignore the same sex marriages being conducted in churches in the United States and around the world. Just because Catholics believe that same sex marriages does not exist, does not change the fact that same sex marriages are being performed in Christians churches all the time.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Great rationalizations. Don’t like what Scripture says, you can always find some way of ignoring the plain truth. There is no such thing as a gay marriage. The phrase is an oxymoron.

We can discuss the 8 Scriptures on homosexuality if you want.