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phoooiee
Guest
The definition of discipline:
- Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
Again, I am not saying that parents should not try- I am saying that if we make the affirmation that complete silence at the Mass is more important than the formation of new Catholics, we will have that silence- but because of a shrinking church.
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Iowa_Mike
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Bluegoat
Guest
Iowa Mike - I don’t think the being kind is meant so much for the kids - it is for the parents. If you try to “discipline” or correct the parents with the unruly kids, you will get one of a few results:
They will tell you to bugger off
They will despair and not return to church
They will quietly dismiss you as a jerk
And no matter what, they will feel less competent, and when we feel less competent, it tends to be self-fulfilling.
If you reassure the parent that you appreciate their efforts, it helps them keep trying, and eventually things improve.
If the parents really don’t care, nothing you can say will help anyway, so there isn’t much reason to worry about them. It is the priest’s job to deal with the behavior of adults in the church.
They will tell you to bugger off
They will despair and not return to church
They will quietly dismiss you as a jerk
And no matter what, they will feel less competent, and when we feel less competent, it tends to be self-fulfilling.
If you reassure the parent that you appreciate their efforts, it helps them keep trying, and eventually things improve.
If the parents really don’t care, nothing you can say will help anyway, so there isn’t much reason to worry about them. It is the priest’s job to deal with the behavior of adults in the church.
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Iowa_Mike
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I accept your definition of discipline but tolerating bad behavior is not a form of discipline.
Recently the Cardinal Newman Society reported the following:
This is a where our college kids are today. It isn’t because we tolerated their bad behavior it is precisely the reverse. We have failed to teach them the core doctrines of the faith and we have created several generations of poorly formed Catholics. These kids have no idea of what Catholic doctrine is or why we must follow it. The key to forming future Catholics rests in better Catechesis and fraternal correction…not in ignoring their education or bad behaviors in the hopes things will improve.
By the way…you have said nothing to offend my and I hope I haven’t offended you in any way either.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Reservoir_Dog
Guest
You’re swimming upstream on this one. As long as there are mothers with children, there will always be noisy children at Mass, you can rail away for weeks but that’s the stone cold fact. You’ve got to adapt: different pew, different Mass, but ranting won’t fix anything.
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phoooiee
Guest
This thread has really affected me.
I had my 2 kids by myself for the holy day today and we left and went home after 5 minutes.
I don’t know if it was the right thing to do or not. Frankly, I couldn’t stand the thought that staying could be ruining Mass for everyone else, and I couldn’t stand the thought of leaving since this is a holy day of obligation (for me, as an adult.) We went to the cry room first but were still getting some looks even when we were in there.
I had my 2 kids by myself for the holy day today and we left and went home after 5 minutes.
I don’t know if it was the right thing to do or not. Frankly, I couldn’t stand the thought that staying could be ruining Mass for everyone else, and I couldn’t stand the thought of leaving since this is a holy day of obligation (for me, as an adult.) We went to the cry room first but were still getting some looks even when we were in there.
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Reservoir_Dog
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Like it or not, Its something we have to accept as part of church life, mothers will bear children, who will cry. This really calls for the much vaunted Christian charity.
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Bluegoat
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TRy to find an Eastern Catholic parish, or maybe a Spanish language Mass.
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phoooiee
Guest
We usually go to the Spanish Mass, and we’ve found it to be very friendly. Normally my kids are really good, anyway, but when it’s just me with 2 active boys it doesn’t quite work out as it does when I have my parents with me…My 2-year old was really cranky today and I had to put him to bed right when we got home, although it was hours before his usual nap time…go figure.
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Iowa_Mike
Guest
Look I don’t get into their face and say that their horrible parents and they need lessons to control their brats. I might say, “you guys seem to have your hands full and I don’t want to add to your problems but it was really hard for me to concentrate on the mass today”.
- If they tell me to go jump in the lake, it tells me a lot about why their kids have no manners.
- If they despair and not come back to mass, they were looking for a reason not to come anyway.
- Even if they dismiss me as a jerk, they usually act very differently the next time we are seated near each other.
The lack of parental competence is obvious when their kids are out of control but how can we expect anything to change if we are too timid to bring it to their attention? I’m not disciplining the parents, I’m not telling them how to parent and I am not concerned if they think I’m a jerk; I am actually doing them a service by bringing the problem to their attention.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Iowa_Mike
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You did the right thing. I’ve spent a lot of time in the ‘cry’ room…it’s called the ‘cry’ room because kids are crying and acting out. That’s the purpose of the room…you should have stuck to your guns. I applaud your effort to manage the situation and I regret people in the cry room weren’t more understanding.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Iowa_Mike
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I think you missed something…this remark was directed at the behavior of a 50ish year old female who whiSSSSSSpered during the entire mass. She had a very loud and distinctive ‘s’ sound which carried very well because I was 5 - 6 pews in front of her and it was very very distracting.
Also my comment was intended to lighten the discussion about her a bit by using a little sarcasm.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Sarabande
Guest
I’ll put this in two posts…
It’s funny. I’m usually pretty good at blocking out disruptive sounds at mass or anywhere else. I think it stems from a younger brother and sister growing up who thought it was hilarious to try to distract me while I was reading, doing homework or practicing music with loud sounds, loud music, purposely loud voices, etc. haha! It became great training in learning how to get “into the zone” so-to-speak in which you can block out any noise you don’t want to hear because I refused to let them distract me. It’s like a Pavlovian response - as soon as I hear something that isn’t supposed to be and is continuous, I immediately put myself in the zone and I don’t hear it anymore. (Also has been very helpful when performing or auditioning. haha!)
Although, when I sang in the choir at my parish there was a family who had three girls and all three of them would scream throughout the entire mass and that was a major challenge. It’s a big, old church, so there is no cry room and every place you’d think would be a good place to go to just echoed out even more. We were in the choir loft in the back and whenever they came to mass, we’d have a heck of a time trying to hear what the priest was saying, especially when we were to come in for the acclamations. I don’t know if their daughters had some kind of problem or if they just didn’t know how to discipline or quiet their daughters, but I have never before or since experienced anything like that. It was the loudest I’ve ever heard - perhaps because it was usually all three girls making the noise. They eventually stopped coming to that particular mass - maybe because they moved, or they attended a different mass or some other reason. OR maybe they eventually learned to discipline and quiet their girls at mass and that’s why we didn’t hear them anymore. I don’t know the actual reason, though.
That all said, I also don’t believe that I should let my child or anyone else allow their children to act out and make noises throughout the entire mass or other places which require a more tranquil atmosphere. We need to do the best we can to curb it. Even if I can block out certain noises, that doesn’t mean that I don’t like to just have a mass without having to do that. BUT the kinds of thing that people have described in the thread is so few and far between it’s not a big deal for me. Actually, one of the biggest challenges I had was sitting next to a man who very loudly said all the responses in Latin (the mass was in English). We have Latin OFs at my parish, which I have always loved, but that was not the mass time nor the day that we had the Latin mass.
And to the second part…
It’s funny. I’m usually pretty good at blocking out disruptive sounds at mass or anywhere else. I think it stems from a younger brother and sister growing up who thought it was hilarious to try to distract me while I was reading, doing homework or practicing music with loud sounds, loud music, purposely loud voices, etc. haha! It became great training in learning how to get “into the zone” so-to-speak in which you can block out any noise you don’t want to hear because I refused to let them distract me. It’s like a Pavlovian response - as soon as I hear something that isn’t supposed to be and is continuous, I immediately put myself in the zone and I don’t hear it anymore. (Also has been very helpful when performing or auditioning. haha!)
Although, when I sang in the choir at my parish there was a family who had three girls and all three of them would scream throughout the entire mass and that was a major challenge. It’s a big, old church, so there is no cry room and every place you’d think would be a good place to go to just echoed out even more. We were in the choir loft in the back and whenever they came to mass, we’d have a heck of a time trying to hear what the priest was saying, especially when we were to come in for the acclamations. I don’t know if their daughters had some kind of problem or if they just didn’t know how to discipline or quiet their daughters, but I have never before or since experienced anything like that. It was the loudest I’ve ever heard - perhaps because it was usually all three girls making the noise. They eventually stopped coming to that particular mass - maybe because they moved, or they attended a different mass or some other reason. OR maybe they eventually learned to discipline and quiet their girls at mass and that’s why we didn’t hear them anymore. I don’t know the actual reason, though.
That all said, I also don’t believe that I should let my child or anyone else allow their children to act out and make noises throughout the entire mass or other places which require a more tranquil atmosphere. We need to do the best we can to curb it. Even if I can block out certain noises, that doesn’t mean that I don’t like to just have a mass without having to do that. BUT the kinds of thing that people have described in the thread is so few and far between it’s not a big deal for me. Actually, one of the biggest challenges I had was sitting next to a man who very loudly said all the responses in Latin (the mass was in English). We have Latin OFs at my parish, which I have always loved, but that was not the mass time nor the day that we had the Latin mass.
And to the second part…
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Sarabande
Guest
At the same time, a slightly fussy baby, children who might call out during mass and is quickly quieted by the parent, a laughing baby, etc. is just part of normal sounds - in my humble opinion. At least where I’ve attended mass, most parents know when it is time to get the baby/child out of there should they not be able to quiet them down. I don’t know… when I was a kid, if my brother, sister or I were doing something not appropriate at mass, the eye was given to us and that stopped whatever we were doing. That’s not to say in the beginning there weren’t times where my parents had to take one or more of us out as we’re all close in age. As we got older, we learned that church was not a place to act out and have fun. My sister, though, in the beginning used to act out just to get out of mass and didn’t care if she was punished. It was as if she’d rather be punished and reprimanded than to have to be at mass. But again, with my parents’ persistence, she learned what was appropriate and not acceptable and even my rascally sister learned to be quiet at mass as loud and rambunctious as she was practically everywhere else.
Now that I have my own 11-month-old baby, I am so hyper-focused on any sound she makes because I don’t want to bring attention to her and to my place where I’m sitting since I know there are people who aren’t as good with blocking out sounds and focusing just on the mass. And I don’t want to put people through what some would consider torture or just minor/major disturbances. I’ve so far have been able to hush her quickly enough, but there have been a couple of times where I, my husband or my parents have had to bring her to the back. We attend mass at a church built in the 18th century, so there is really no place to bring a crying/fussing baby or loud child except to bring them outside. It’s too cold to do that right now. (Although it might work for older children - meaning, they’d prefer to be quiet at mass than to have to go out in the freezing cold) And there really isn’t any place to build a cry room. It’s not a large building. There was a huge baby boom at our parish the year she was born, so at one point I’ve seen about 6 or 7 mothers or dads in the very back of the church with their babies earlier on. But the way the church is constructed, you didn’t actually hear them back there so it has worked.
Actually, all of the churches I attend on a regular basis either for work or as a congregant has been in a church built in the 18th and 19th centuries. I don’t know if it has something to do with the fact that these churches don’t have cry rooms or they have very echo-y sanctuaries, but it seems as if the people that attend mass in these places with their kids have figured out a way to keep their children behaved or take them out when needed because any sound echoes loudly throughout the whole church or the church is so small the congregation knows everyone that they don’t want to embarrass themselves or their children?
I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t let these things bother me too much when it comes to other people’s children. It makes me all hot and sweaty and embarrassed when it’s my baby, but not with others. I try to think the best of others and hope that they are doing the best that they can do and handle for that day or month or year.
Now that I have my own 11-month-old baby, I am so hyper-focused on any sound she makes because I don’t want to bring attention to her and to my place where I’m sitting since I know there are people who aren’t as good with blocking out sounds and focusing just on the mass. And I don’t want to put people through what some would consider torture or just minor/major disturbances. I’ve so far have been able to hush her quickly enough, but there have been a couple of times where I, my husband or my parents have had to bring her to the back. We attend mass at a church built in the 18th century, so there is really no place to bring a crying/fussing baby or loud child except to bring them outside. It’s too cold to do that right now. (Although it might work for older children - meaning, they’d prefer to be quiet at mass than to have to go out in the freezing cold) And there really isn’t any place to build a cry room. It’s not a large building. There was a huge baby boom at our parish the year she was born, so at one point I’ve seen about 6 or 7 mothers or dads in the very back of the church with their babies earlier on. But the way the church is constructed, you didn’t actually hear them back there so it has worked.
Actually, all of the churches I attend on a regular basis either for work or as a congregant has been in a church built in the 18th and 19th centuries. I don’t know if it has something to do with the fact that these churches don’t have cry rooms or they have very echo-y sanctuaries, but it seems as if the people that attend mass in these places with their kids have figured out a way to keep their children behaved or take them out when needed because any sound echoes loudly throughout the whole church or the church is so small the congregation knows everyone that they don’t want to embarrass themselves or their children?
I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t let these things bother me too much when it comes to other people’s children. It makes me all hot and sweaty and embarrassed when it’s my baby, but not with others. I try to think the best of others and hope that they are doing the best that they can do and handle for that day or month or year.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
What kind of society is it when discipline itself is scorned?
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At_Trent
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ExcellentTry reading Matthew 18:1-5. I believe you will find that Jesus welcomed children just as they were. In fact I think I can remember His words being, “…the kingdom of heaven is for such as these.”
“The notion everyone should make allowances is just a hedonistic notion on the part of people who believe the world revolves around their needs.”
Can you see the judgment and anger in your words here? So are you calling me a heathen because I ask that you be a Christian and show charity to those whom we worship with??? Can you see the hypocrisy in your words? The world evolves around me because I want to bring my children to mass without being chastised by evil looks, yet you tell us in your words that the world evolves around you.
This Church that Jesus has built on the rock, Peter, was built for all, not just you sir! It is not your mass.
You are part of a worshipping community, not a group of perfect people like yourself. There are thieves, bigots, adulteress’, divorced and remarried, possibly abortionist, maybe murderers, etc. (I think you get the point) included in congregations within the Church everywhere. Guess what sir, it is not your duty to put all the bad people out of mass so you can enjoy the purity of your own presence, you could do that at home with your mirror.
I feel better now, sorry to all of you whom this message is not meant.
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Lindner
Guest
I don’t think it’s cruel to not like distractions during Mass. If you go into any Catholic school, the children will not be allowed to misbehave, or talk loudly when adults are speaking, or any of the bad behaviors some of you are defending.
If it’s not ok during school, then why is it acceptable during mass?
We are not he bad guys for asking you to keep your children quiet for one hour.
If it’s not ok during school, then why is it acceptable during mass?
We are not he bad guys for asking you to keep your children quiet for one hour.
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Ashurie
Guest
Just saw a post about whispering old ladies…and reminded me of last night’s Easter Vigil.
Across the aisle in front of me and another pew (i was in the second/third row - depending on how you look at it - and there is a aisle in front of the pews I was in to gave access to the other sides of the church - hope you get the picture) there was a young couple, with their toddler, who are probably almost impossible to quieten down for most part of the Vigil. Anyway, this started the group of old ladies in front of me to gossip about it - and the lot behind me! The I believe it was around the time of blessing of gifts, a mobile phone went off! And believe it or not, it belonged to one of the old ladies sitting in front of me - AND she answered it! We were kneeling at the time and she hid behind a pew that was in front of her.
Kids, I can understand they can get restless and all - but a old lady leaving her phone on and then answering it…
Across the aisle in front of me and another pew (i was in the second/third row - depending on how you look at it - and there is a aisle in front of the pews I was in to gave access to the other sides of the church - hope you get the picture) there was a young couple, with their toddler, who are probably almost impossible to quieten down for most part of the Vigil. Anyway, this started the group of old ladies in front of me to gossip about it - and the lot behind me! The I believe it was around the time of blessing of gifts, a mobile phone went off! And believe it or not, it belonged to one of the old ladies sitting in front of me - AND she answered it! We were kneeling at the time and she hid behind a pew that was in front of her.
Kids, I can understand they can get restless and all - but a old lady leaving her phone on and then answering it…
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MissRose73
Guest
I understand that infants and toddlers don’t have a grasp on keeping quiet constantly during Mass. I also understand that Jesus said “Let the children come to me”…
At the Easter Mass today, there were many children of various ages. Sitting in front of me was 2 parents and a grandparent with a 3 or 4 year old. It was a bit distracting with them having toys & snacks that made a bit of noise, and the kid was trying to throw them some too.
Most parents tried to be considerate and take infants/toddlers to the cry room or gathering area to calm them down.
I don’t even remember past the age of 4/5 years being allowed to bring a doll to church, and I did see some little girls (some as old as 6/7 years old) with a doll.
At the Easter Mass today, there were many children of various ages. Sitting in front of me was 2 parents and a grandparent with a 3 or 4 year old. It was a bit distracting with them having toys & snacks that made a bit of noise, and the kid was trying to throw them some too.
Most parents tried to be considerate and take infants/toddlers to the cry room or gathering area to calm them down.
I don’t even remember past the age of 4/5 years being allowed to bring a doll to church, and I did see some little girls (some as old as 6/7 years old) with a doll.
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